(Topic ID: 131407)

Fireball II Club (fans welcome!)


By mof

4 years ago



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There are 494 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 10.
#451 23 days ago

I've posted above, that they should'nt flash during collect bonus, only at the beginning of the multiball.

#452 23 days ago
Quoted from Manu2:

I've posted above, that they should'nt flash during collect bonus, only at the beginning of the multiball.

I went through this whole thread prior to my last post, and I missed that. I watched the video you posted and that was what I saw, and what your game is doing, is what my game is doing. I watched the first video in this thread, and thought I saw them flash during bonus collection after multi-ball drain.

Now, I'm also wondering just what the hell happened to the original playfield, to have severe wood burn marks in the four corners where those big flashers are located

I'm going to go back and watch that first video again, to make sure I actually saw what I thought I saw.

#453 17 days ago

I went back and watched the video in post 24 of this thread, and those four big flashers do flash during bonus collection, but that was after a couple of multi-ball drains.

Wish I knew what the board configuration in that game was, all original or all new or a combination of new boards with old boards.

Now I am beginning to wonder if the issue - if it is an issue - may be connected to the little aux driver under the playfield. Btw, does anybody know where to get the S2800A SCR's? I found some at Digitron, but they are S2800M's I believe, and are rated higher than the A's, which that site said are obsolete/discontinued.

My game configuration atm is - Callahan Mutha MPU, Alltek Lamp Driver, Alltek SDB, Original S&T, and original mini boards under the playfield.

#454 14 days ago

Hey guys, I'm looking at a Fireball II with a bad playfield, but that's working okay. $1000 OBO and a long drive. Here's a link to my price check thread.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/price-check-fireball-ii

You guys are the experts. What do you think? Thanks in advance!

#455 12 days ago

put capacitors on the three stand-up targets yesterday. Much improved.

I also replaced the A Lane rollover switch. It was getting buggy, not working from time to time. Still chasing a problem with the Alltek SDB highlighting a short circuit condition on the right slingshot, which disables that sling. Powering off, and powering on the game clears it, but something's up somewhere in that circuit as it always comes back.

For the moment, I'm working the assumption that it's somewhere in the switch matrix so I'll see where that takes me.

#456 12 days ago
Quoted from surfinvet:

Fixed the As-2518-67 flasher board by replacing the SCR at Q1 with an NTE 5643 200v 10a. Soldered a jumper wire covering the burnt trace. Lastly had to replace two of the lamp sockets by the doodlebug and installed 921 bulbs. All is working as it should, thanks for the help guys! Especially Quench!

I asked for a replacement about a week ago, and you gave me my answer last year LOL

#457 11 days ago

From the Alltek SDB Manual

The solenoid number in self test does not match the coil according to my game manual. First check the MPU-J4 connector and the SDB-P4 connector for corrosion and/or broken pins and wires. If the wiring looks good, try another MPU. In rare cases a defective sound board can cause this also by loading the data lines. If the problem goes away when the sound board is disconnected, it is most likely at fault.

Mine never did match, but I disregarded it because the game played. It was always on the back of my mind, but I proceeded with other more immediate and obvious things (replacing switches that were acting flaky, flipper rebuilds, etc.) But over the last couple of months, the right slingshot has been disabled during gameplay. At first it was an occasional thing, but now it does it just about every game, and not coincidentally, after I added the caps to the stand-up targets. According to self-test, the right slingshot is solenoid Q7, but the SDB recognizes it as Q16. Q16 should be the Fireball relay.

I have had a hard time tracking what the game is doing at the exact time that coil is disabled. More research to follow.

All connectors have been re-worked in the backbox. I am tempted to suspect my MPU, but that's just a wild ass guess atm.

edit to add

I disconnected the S&T, and that did not cause the board to match up with the manual identifications

#458 10 days ago

Update:

After getting a disabled right slingshot in just about every game (which started after I put the caps on the stand-up targets), I decided to replace some coils, on the three pop bumpers and the Fireball relay coil.

Played approximately 30 games yesterday afternoon and into the evening. The right slingshot was disabled twice, but we did play 16 games in a row without it being disabled.

Does anybody know when Bally stopped producing coils with the Bally logo on the wrap? The old coils that I replaced still have that brown wrap with Bally printed on them, and while it's not necessarily a sign of functionality when it comes to the appearance of a coil, those four coils look old and used up.

An interesting note on the Fireball relay coil (it should be Q16, not the right slingshot). Manual calls for GO-36-6900, but that is obsolete. I put this coil - FO-36-7000 in as a replacement.

http://actionpinball.com/pics/fo-36-7000.jpg

It wouldn't fit, as that hub that runs through the middle was too long on the non-threaded side, but about 30 seconds on my grinder, it fit perfectly. And it works well. The doodlebug ball seems a bit more responsive, but that may just be my imagination.

I'm really leaning towards the MPU being the issue, which probably means I'm going to bite the bullet on the Alltek MPU sometime in the near future. The SDB identification of the coils on the board should match the manual.

edit to add:

while I am still in the process of working the switch matrix (banged up switches), I am now fairly certain that whatever this problem is, the switch matrix is probably not the issue.

#459 10 days ago

Some may wonder why I sized down the hub on a coin door lockout coil.

It was all I had on hand yesterday, and I was on a roll with the spare coils I had at the house and said.... what the hell.

#460 10 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

According to self-test, the right slingshot is solenoid Q7, but the SDB recognizes it as Q16. Q16 should be the Fireball relay.

The self test numbers for the solenoid coils have no correlation to the driver transistor Q numbers (on some early Sterns they do, but not Ballys).

The Fireball relay is driven by driver transistor Q17. What's the exact problem you're trying to fix with it?

#461 10 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

The self test numbers for the solenoid coils has no correlation to the driver transistor Q numbers.
The Fireball relay is driven by driver transistor Q17. What's the exact problem you're trying to fix with it?

The right sling-shot being locked down by the SDB during game play. (edit to add) The right slingshot still scores and chimes, it just doesn't kick the ball.

It was an intermittent issue, until I capped those stand-up targets, then it became just about an every game issue. I replaced the four coils because I had newer coils on hand, and now it's intermittent again. Something else that has just started happening, since early summer to be specific, is that when powering on the game, the MPU test light goes solid green. I'd say this is about 40% of the time, right off the top of my head. A quick toggle of the power switch to off then back on, it boots up just fine.

Which is why some of this other quirky behavior keeps pointing me back to the MPU as the potential culprit. That power-up issue would be tied to the MPU reset circuit, correct?

Assuming that cabling and connectors are all re-worked, right? I have re-pinned all of my backbox connectors.

#462 9 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

The right sling-shot being locked down by the SDB during game play. (edit to add) The right slingshot still scores and chimes, it just doesn't kick the ball.

So the right slingshot coil isn't activating?
What happens if you very briefly ground the metal tab of driver transistor Q16? does that right slingshot coil fire?

Quoted from jlbintn:

Which is why some of this other quirky behavior keeps pointing me back to the MPU as the potential culprit. That power-up issue would be tied to the MPU reset circuit, correct?

Possibly. Has the MPU board suffered from battery leak corrosion?

#463 9 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Does anybody know when Bally stopped producing coils with the Bally logo on the wrap? The old coils that I replaced still have that brown wrap with Bally printed on them, and while it's not necessarily a sign of functionality when it comes to the appearance of a coil, those four coils look old and used up.

I don't know the answer to this question, but I have coil wrapper files on my website http://www.inkochnito.nl
Look in the "Coil Wrappers" section. Be sure to read the top part of the section page.

#464 9 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

So the right slingshot coil isn't activating?
What happens if you very briefly ground the metal tab of driver transistor Q16? does that right slingshot coil fire?

Possibly. Has the MPU board suffered from battery leak corrosion?

It is a Callahan Mutha MPU. It is clean, never any batteries on it. I've had it since early 2007, bought it from Tom brand new, did it over the phone while talking to him and telling him about the dead pinball game I had just purchased. One of the reasons that I'm considering the Alltek is that a lot of pinheads have that MPU, or the original MPU. Not many have the Callahan board as best as I have been able to determine, and if I run out of talent in troubleshooting/diagnosing, I'm not sure who would be willing to work on it.

Played 13 games last night, and the sling did not get deactivated. The improvement between early last week after I put those caps on the stand-up targets and then the four new coils I mentioned earlier, is dramatic. I'm going to proceed with replacing the coils, I'm about 2/3 of the way there now. That power-up issue I described that cropped up a few months ago is not getting better. When I did the soldering during the play-field swap, I wasn't as refined as practice has made me since. I wasn't sloppy or careless, just new. Cleaning up some of the connections and trimming the wired ends may help as well. I'm just guessing now, though.

Thanks Inkochnito, I forgot how thorough your site is. Never even thought to look for those coil wrappers there. I'm kind of enjoying tracking the life of this game. I would not be surprised to find that the coils and switches on the game are at least 30 years old.

#465 9 days ago
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#466 9 days ago

while your replacing coils do vids flipper rebuild upgrade you will be glad you did! its amazing the difference.

#467 9 days ago
Quoted from freddy:

while your replacing coils do vids flipper rebuild upgrade you will be glad you did! its amazing the difference.

Did that back in July. Complete and total rebuild of all three, plus the three on my Dungeons & Dragons. Big difference

I also noticed that the Little Demon issues discussed earlier in this thread picked up the pace after the flipper rebuilds. So, when I'm done with the coils, I'm going to look at reducing the noise from the flippers.

It's annoying when one is playing a decent game and Little Demon credits just go poofy into the ether LOL

#468 9 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Did that back in July. Complete and total rebuild of all three, plus the three on my Dungeons & Dragons. Big difference
I also noticed that the Little Demon issues discussed earlier in this thread picked up the pace after the flipper rebuilds. So, when I'm done with the coils, I'm going to look at reducing the noise from the flippers.
It's annoying when one is playing a decent game and Little Demon credits just go poofy into the ether LOL

Never had a little Demon issue

#469 8 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

It is a Callahan Mutha MPU.

Did you get any schematics with it?

Quoted from jlbintn:

Played 13 games last night, and the sling did not get deactivated.

Do you mean the slingshot coil is locking on? If so, isn't it burning up?

#470 8 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Did you get any schematics with it?

Do you mean the slingshot coil is locking on? If so, isn't it burning up?

No schematics, but I've been told it can be diagnosed using the schematics for the original MPU.

No, the board locks it down and won't let it fire. The silk screen on the board says it has done that because a short-circuit has been detected. I checked after we played the last round of 13 games in a row without it being locked down, and the coil isn't even warm.

Edit to add:

I know of what you are referring to, e.g., a coil burning up. I had an issue with the upper flipper in my D&D pin, and you could smell it. Turned out to be a bad diode on the coil. I put a new diode on that particular coil, and now it doesn't even get warm when used, or held open.

Edit to add, part II

There are two fuses under the playfield on my game, and neither of them are blowing. No fuses on the rectifier board are blowing, either. Blowing fuses on this game since the swap, has not been an issue at all, unless I did something stupid. I only did that once

#471 8 days ago
Quoted from freddy:

Never had a little Demon issue

I have always had an intermittent issue with an occasional fire during game play. It got worse when I rebuilt the flippers. Could be coincidence, or maybe not.

Right now, I just don't know, but it is the least of the few issues I have atm. From what I have learned, it is a problem some FB II owners have, and for others, not so much.

Edit to add:

This is just pure speculation on my part, but I keep thinking back to the burn marks on the original playfield underside wood around the doodle-bug, caused by the big flasher bulbs. And the burnt and cracked connectors that were the original connectors from factory on the game.

This game was not treated well, nor cared for professionally, imo.

#472 7 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

There are two fuses under the playfield on my game, and neither of them are blowing.

If I remember correctly, one fuse is for the standard playfield coils, the other fuse is for the doodlebug ball magnet. The schematics don't list the second fuse and it's been some time since I've seen the real thing to confirm.

Quoted from jlbintn:

No, the board locks it down and won't let it fire. The silk screen on the board says it has done that because a short-circuit has been detected.

I think our terminologies are confusing each other with the word "lock". When we say a coil is locking on we mean it activates immediately at power up and stays activated - if the fuse doesn't blow, it eventually cooks. Do I understand correctly that when you say the "board locks it down", you mean the coil is essentially dead (not activating) because the Alltek SDB has disabled it due to a malfunction (shorted transistor) it's sensed?

Quoted from jlbintn:

No schematics, but I've been told it can be diagnosed using the schematics for the original MPU.

The Callahan Mutha MPU board pictures in the below thread indicate it's pretty similar to the Bally board - reset section looks the same.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/evel-knievel-with-revision-12-muthapcb-not-booting-up

#473 7 days ago

You're not confusing (or misusing) the term, I am. And yes, you understand correctly.

Sorry for the confusion.

Powering down the game, and powering it back up clears the disabling of the coil.

Thanks for the thread link.

Edit to add:

Over the weekend, I pulled all of the MPU chips from their sockets for inspection and to re-seat them. They all look remarkably good. Nothing feeble, nothing bent, nothing burned or tinted from over-heating, etc. Tom put some heavy duty sockets on his boards.

#474 7 days ago

Measured the 82 -1W resistor at R11, it's reading 86.4, with leads reversed 74.8.

Hot to the touch, too.

Edit to add:

very difficult to find for sale, too.

#475 6 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Measured the 82 -1W resistor at R11, it's reading 86.4, with leads reversed 74.8.

R11 operates at max power - Bally underspecced it. On top of that, the Callahan board uses a physically small version of that resistor so it runs even hotter having less mass to dissipate the heat.
I always replace it with a 3 watt version. You can find them on ebay.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Powering down the game, and powering it back up clears the disabling of the coil.

So when does the slingshot coil become disabled?
The coil has a diode on it? The diode is good? (not shorted) and it's installed the right way around? - banded diode side towards the yellow wires.

#476 6 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

R11 operates at max power - Bally underspecced it. On top of that, the Callahan board uses a physically small version of that resistor so it runs even hotter having less mass to dissipate the heat.
I always replace it with a 3 watt version. You can find them on ebay.

So when does the slingshot coil become disabled?
The coil has a diode on it? The diode is good? (not shorted) and it's installed the right way around? - banded diode side towards the yellow wires.

Hope this doesn't seem to be a dumb question, but could I use a 100-110 ohm 1 or 2 watt resistor instead? I have a bunch of those on hand. Or would that be too much of a hindrance on the circuit? Thanks for the tip. I'll check e-bay.

Yeah, the coil is good. As far as I can determine, at any rate. Wires are connected correctly. It's new, got it from Marco, and is the coil the owner's manual specifies for the slingshots.

#477 5 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

Hope this doesn't seem to be a dumb question, but could I use a 100-110 ohm 1 or 2 watt resistor instead?

Not a dumb question at all, I was going to suggest a 470 ohm resistor. R11 was there as part of the charging circuit for the original Bally spec nicad battery. Your board doesn't have a battery in the charging circuit so you should be able to raise the resistance of R11 to reduce is power consumption.
Let's presume there's 9 volts across that resistor; an 82 ohm resistor will consume 0.98 Watts. A 110 ohm resistor will consume 0.73 watts.
You generally want the wattage rating of the resistor to be at least double what it's consuming.

Note that resistor won't be the cause of your intermittent startups - to diagnose that you'll first need to determine how many times the LED on the MPU board flashes on power up.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Yeah, the coil is good. As far as I can determine, at any rate. Wires are connected correctly. It's new

So long as you have the yellow wires on the coil lug where the banded side of the diode is, then you might have a shorted driver transistor on the solenoid driver board (SDB).

If you want, try swapping the two slingshot wires at the J5 connector at the SDB (pin 14 is left slingshot, pin 8 is the right slingshot). If the same transistor gets disabled you know it's faulty. If the fault follows the coil you know it's not the SDB.
If it is a suspect driver transistor get in touch with Alltek, their warranty might cover it. That is unless you want to replace the driver transistor yourself..

#478 5 days ago

Thanks, that's very helpful. 470 ohm 1 watt? I believe I have some resistors in that range. When the game doesn't power up, before cycling the power switch a second time to get it to power up, the test light just goes solid green. No blinks, nada. Just right to solid green.

I may try that swap, unless continued play doesn't disable that coil at the SDB. Put three more new coils on the game yesterday: the left slingshot and the two saucers. Played last night, 15-20 games and that sling coil was not disabled. The little demon is still acting up, but I'm becoming more convinced that it is the flippers that instigate that. I'm going to save that for last.

I'd probably replace the transistor myself, if it ends up being the culprit.

#479 5 days ago

Don't have any 470 ohm 1 watt resistors available. Tried a 470 ohm 2 watt resistor. Too much, the board wouldn't boot up. Two slow green blinks and pfffftttttt......

Put the old one back on and it's fine now. Time to do some math.

#480 5 days ago

For now, went with a 150 ohm 1 watt resistor. Measured 16.59vdc at the front of it, 5.68vdc at the end of it. That's a bit higher than the original, coming out of the resistor. The origina read 5.04vdc coming out the end of it.

All coils have been replaced, with the exception of the three drop target banks and the coin door lockout. I have a coin lockout coil and one drop bank coil coming my way.

I'll play it tonight and see what it does. I had to power the game down 5-6 times while I was replacing the coil and doing some other stuff. The MPU booted up solidly the first time every time. I'll be interested to see if that continues.

edit to add

Quench you are correct about the two fuses under the playfield, btw. One for the doodlebug and one for the coils.

#481 4 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

he little demon is still acting up, but I'm becoming more convinced that it is the flippers that instigate that. I'm going to save that for last.

This is going to be the typical Bally phantom pop issue caused by high current surges to the flippers being picked up as noise in the switch matrix. The only true way to fix it will be to separate the flipper wires in the harness...

Quoted from jlbintn:

I'd probably replace the transistor myself, if it ends up being the culprit.

From memory, those transistors are surface mount. You comfortable dealing with that? Note Alltek uses MOSFET transistors, they're different to the transistors used on the Bally SDB.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Don't have any 470 ohm 1 watt resistors available. Tried a 470 ohm 2 watt resistor. Too much, the board wouldn't boot up. Two slow green blinks and pfffftttttt......

Ok, good to know. Barakandl posted a mod a few years ago to get rid of some of those reset section components when using NVRAM, and that Dallas chip on your board is essentially a NVRAM - it has an internal lithium battery from memory with a limited life (but it's many years).

Quoted from jlbintn:

went with a 150 ohm 1 watt resistor. Measured 16.59vdc at the front of it, 5.68vdc at the end of it.

Hmm, it's still consuming at 0.8 watts. Your original 82 ohm resistor must have been consuming nearly 1.4 watts! No wonder it was cooking.
That 16.59 volts on the front side of R11 is a little high. Is the transformer in your game wired for the correct and up to date wall line voltage?

I normally measure about 5.8 - 5.9 volts at the end of R11. Don't worry about it being 5.68 volts.

#482 4 days ago

I'm fairly comfortable doing that, but I may just send it off if the problem persists. Alltek boards have a lifetime warranty and they stand behind it. Played 12-15 games last night, and the right slingshot was not shut down by the SDB.

I'm assuming the transformer is wired properly for wall voltage, I have paid little attention to that end of the game to this point in time, although earlier this week, I did put a new line filter in and changed the varistor as well. I have a new rectifier board in there, but one of the last things I need to do is re-pin the connectors at the board. I'm using the old rectifier board as a spare.

For what it's worth, the original resistor on that MPU measured around 15.5vdc at the front end.

#483 4 days ago

Are metal film resistors ok to use?

edit to add:

You say this new resistor is consuming 0.8 watts. You divide 12 (the line voltage - 11.99 in the schematic) by 150 (the rating of the resistor), yes? I get 0.08 when doing that, what am I missing?

Found some 82 ohm, 3 watt metal film resistors, six bucks and some change for 20, and some 82 ohm, 2 watt resistors, another six bucks and some change for 50.

Got both, might be good to have on hand anyway.

#484 3 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I'm assuming the transformer is wired properly for wall voltage,

Can you post a picture of the wire voltage jumper block next to the transformer? the block is where the mains fuse is.

Quoted from jlbintn:

Are metal film resistors ok to use?

Yes, a metal film resistor is perfectly fine to use.

Quoted from jlbintn:

You say this new resistor is consuming 0.8 watts.

The voltages you listed across the new 150 ohm resistor were: "16.59vdc at the front of it, 5.68vdc at the end of it".
16.59 - 5.68 = 10.91 volts across the resistor.
Ohms law says current is voltage divided by resistance:
10.91 / 150 = 0.727 amps through the resistor
Power is calculated as voltage times current:
10.91 * 0.727 = 0.793 watts (I rounded it up to 0.8 watts)

Hope that makes sense.

#485 3 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

Can you post a picture of the wire voltage jumper block next to the transformer? the block is where the mains fuse is.

Yes, a metal film resistor is perfectly fine to use.

The voltages you listed across the new 150 ohm resistor were: "16.59vdc at the front of it, 5.68vdc at the end of it".
16.59 - 5.68 = 10.91 volts across the resistor.
Ohms law says current is voltage divided by resistance:
10.91 / 150 = 0.727 amps through the resistor
Power is calculated as voltage times current:
10.91 * 0.727 = 0.793 watts (I rounded it up to 0.8 watts)
Hope that makes sense.

Yes that makes sense, I was missing some of the math. I didn't factor the difference between the values across the resistor. Thanks.

trfmr1 (resized).jpgtrfmr2 (resized).jpg
#486 3 days ago

I need to see where the two top orange wires are located on that connector to determine the transformer input voltage selection.

JLBINTN_TransformerVoltage1.jpg

#487 3 days ago

I’m in, Just got one for $300. Working. However backglass is bad. Anybody does a trans or a repopulated? Pics tomorrow. Ron

#488 3 days ago

Will a fireball Classic backglass work in a fireball 2? I see the game over is wrong. But not a biggie

#489 2 days ago
Quoted from Quench:

I need to see where the two top orange wires are located on that connector to determine the transformer input voltage selection.
[quoted image]

LOL.... sorry. I had about five things going yesterday when I read the post and then subsequently took the pictures. Over-engineered the process....

Ironically, one of them was an orange tractor

trfmr3 (resized).jpg
#490 2 days ago
Quoted from RONR11:

Will a fireball Classic backglass work in a fireball 2? I see the game over is wrong. But not a biggie

First off, welcome to the club, this is a great game.

How bad is the original glass? Could you post a picture. I am assuming, at a minimum, that you have flaking at the bottom. This is not uncommon in older Bally games from what I have learned by surfing pinball forums.

BGResto can probably do a repro of that glass, but you will have to send the backglass to them. Personally, I wouldn't use the back-glass from another game if it were avoidable, but that really is up to you and it is your game

I recommend BGResto because I have had personal experience with them, but there may be others out there that are just as reputable and offer good work. They will repro your backglass for $300, which includes shipping, or you can surf the Internet and see if one comes up for sale. They do show up from time to time. I found one a year ago, NOS and in great shape. I didn't even hesitate to click on Add to Cart. Ended up costing me $300, plus twenty for shipping.

Good luck and enjoy the game.

edit to add:

I ended up building a cedar wood frame, and I hung the old back-glass on the wall in the spare bedroom. I think there's a picture of it somewhere in this thread.

#491 2 days ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

took the pictures.

The transformer's configured for 115VAC.

#492 2 days ago

Re-pinned all of the rectifier board connectors today, on the harness side. The board is only a year old. I didn't mess around with the block connector. I'll get that later.

I am assuming that there is no reason to configure it for 120 when I do finally get to that connector.

#493 1 day ago
Quoted from jlbintn:

I am assuming that there is no reason to configure it for 120 when I do finally get to that connector.

Slightly less current draw/strain on components. But you might prefer the extra 4% power in the flippers leaving it at 115V

#494 1 day ago

Just did a side by side. And see the classic would involve a lot of work. So much for that idea. Mine is completely gone only Small traces of Paint

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