(Topic ID: 252278)

Fire and Power Lights on all the time

By abendix

4 years ago


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  • 20 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by abendix
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 4 years ago

Hi

I'm trying to bring an old clunker of a Firepower back to life and have a strange issue. The Fire and Power flasher lights are on at all times - they don't go off as though they are part of the GI. I have checked the transistors for these lights on the controller board and they look ok. As you can guess from my post I'm not highly technical but can manage the basic things.

Any suggestions on what to try /look for will be appreciated.

Thanks

#2 4 years ago

That is by design there's supposed to be resistors under the PF near the flashers that keep each flash very SLIGHTLY on (although you shouldn't be able to see it brightly....) - the theory at the time was that with the flashers pre-warmed, they would last longer when the higher voltage pulse went through them.

If they have been replaced with LED's this might be an issue because LEDs are ON or OFF, and the warming voltage might be enough to light them. If they are regular flasher bulbs, the resistors might be out of spec and are in need of replacement.

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

That is by design there's supposed to be resistors under the PF near the flashers that keep each flash very SLIGHTLY on (although you shouldn't be able to see it brightly....) - the theory at the time was that with the flashers pre-warmed, they would last longer when the higher voltage pulse went through them.
If they have been replaced with LED's this might be an issue because LEDs are ON or OFF, and the warming voltage might be enough to light them. If they are regular flasher bulbs, the resistors might be out of spec and are in need of replacement.

The globes are original but are on fully (i.e. bright) - ant other thoughts?

Thanks

#4 4 years ago

How much voltage are you getting at the light socket?

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

How much voltage are you getting at the light socket?

13.2v

#6 4 years ago

What resistance (ohms) do the resistors read with your meter?

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

What resistance (ohms) do the resistors read with your meter?

Big one is 339 and small one is 1.1

15695896936202605835081166330501 (resized).jpg15695896936202605835081166330501 (resized).jpg
#8 4 years ago

Hmmm, have you tried different flasher bulbs that you know work properly? I ask because you described as an old klunker. I can imagine someone just throwing in whatever bulbs they had laying around. What type bulb is printed on the glass globes?

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Hmmm, have you tried different flasher bulbs that you know work properly? I ask because you described as an old klunker. I can imagine someone just throwing in whatever bulbs they had laying around. What type bulb is printed on the glass globes?

The globes don't have anything on them but they look ok.

Should there be so much voltage at the board?

#10 4 years ago

The globes with nothing printed on them are suspect. You have no idea of the "type" of those bulbs. They could be for/from anything, automotive, boats, ect.

Now, your voltage question is a complex one... It should actually be much higher than 13.2V (more like 28V when not under load) but let's not worry about that... Sounds like you tested for "AC" volts, not "DC". No biggie.

My strong suggestion is to remove the "grounding" wire on one of those small warming boards and see if that resolves your problem. (I think it's the wire furthest to the right in your picture above). And then tape it up or add heatshink to it so it doesn't touch other stuff. If that works, remove the grounding wire on all those "warming" boards.

The grounding wire (actually the entire resistor) is not really necessary, it only makes the bulbs pulse brighter when pulled on. You could remove those large resistors but that's a lot more work.

Now, this also assumes you have the proper bulbs installed.

The technical reasoning is better explained here in this thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/removing-warming-resistors

There could be pinball purists that post under this like "no, don't do that" and OMG no... blah blah, just ignore those fools.

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from abendix:

Hi
I'm trying to bring an old clunker of a Firepower back to life and have a strange issue. The Fire and Power flasher lights are on at all times - they don't go off as though they are part of the GI. I have checked the transistors for these lights on the controller board and they look ok. As you can guess from my post I'm not highly technical but can manage the basic things.
Any suggestions on what to try /look for will be appreciated.
Thanks

Suspect solenoid output circuit 15 Flash Lamps signal is stuck on:
Unplug 2J9 on the driverboard (Lower left bottom plug) to check if they are now off.

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from abendix:

Hi
I'm trying to bring an old clunker of a Firepower back to life and have a strange issue. The Fire and Power flasher lights are on at all times - they don't go off as though they are part of the GI. I have checked the transistors for these lights on the controller board and they look ok. As you can guess from my post I'm not highly technical but can manage the basic things.
Any suggestions on what to try /look for will be appreciated.
Thanks

also check the resistor 8R8 is a 330 ohm 2Watt and 8R7 1ohm 1/2Watt
Bulbs are #89
IMG_20190927_191426092 (resized).jpgIMG_20190927_191426092 (resized).jpg

#13 4 years ago

Are you sure the bulbs in the flasher sockets are incandescent bulbs? If they are LED bulbs, they will be on all the time until you take the warming resistor out of the circuit.

If they are incandescent, what happens when you go into solenoid test? Do they get brighter when they are firing?

Confirm you have #89 bulbs in there. Take the bulbs out and look around the sides and bottom of the metal base for numbers printed or stamped.

#14 4 years ago
Quoted from PINTEC:

Suspect solenoid output circuit 15 Flash Lamps signal is stuck on:
Unplug 2J9 on the driverboard (Lower left bottom plug) to check if they are now off.

Yep - lights out when unplugged.

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from abendix:

Yep - lights out when unplugged.

Suspect Driverboard solenoid output 15 transistor fault:

Replace Q43 Tip 122 and Q42 2n4401 as a set.
re check flash lamp function.
IMG_20190928_180522723 (resized).jpgIMG_20190928_180522723 (resized).jpg

#16 4 years ago

I am thinking it probably is the transistor because if I ground out the relevant pin on the plug, the lights flash as they should. With the plug unplugged I can see the faint glow on the globes as expected as well. I will get some tomorrow and give it a go.

#17 4 years ago

Replacing the trani's didn't make any difference

Question - If I connect a globe to a power source and the earth to the driver board and do a solenoid test on that pin, will it test if the board is operating correctly or not? It may be un-authodox but I want to confirm if the board is the problem or wiring.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from abendix:

Replacing the trani's didn't make any difference
Question - If I connect a globe to a power source and the earth to the driver board and do a solenoid test on that pin, will it test if the board is operating correctly or not? It may be un-authodox but I want to confirm if the board is the problem or wiring.

No change after replacing replacing Q43 Tip 122 and Q42 2n4401 as a set:

Check Ic 4 Pin 11 using a logic probe.

#19 4 years ago

Board issues...

I would still suspect that you could have some other bulbs besides 89 bulbs installed. Have you tried swapping in flashers from other sockets in the game that you know work properly?

Did you ever try to disconnect one side of the large resistor(s) at the warming boards?

#20 4 years ago

Replacing one of the 7408 chips (IC4) fixed the problem. Thank you for your help everyone.

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