Fine tuning

By Terry1

11 months ago


  • 43 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 months ago by Terry1
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    Replay reset relay (resized).JPG
    Anti cheat relay (resized).JPG
    Loose wire (resized).JPG
    Broken wire (resized).JPG
    S I card (resized).JPG
    Bikini pinouts (resized).jpg
    8th ball contact (resized).JPG
    contact before 8th ball (resized).JPG
    ScreenHunter_04 Mar. 30 19.20 (resized).jpg
    Bally balls (resized).JPG
    Bally ball 2 (resized).JPG

    #1 11 months ago

    Now that my Bikini is working, I am wondering just how well it is working!
    Other than my Bikini, I have not played a bingo machine since '64. I have a couple
    operational questions.
    When I start a game, with a nickle, sometimes the first ball comes up to be played;
    but sometimes I have to push the button below the plunger to get a ball in play.
    Is this normal. I noticed that, most often when I start a game from "replays", the ball
    will come up on it's own.
    Is it common, or can it happen, that the odds increase during a game. This has happened
    on occasion.
    I also noticed, when I was clicking off a few "replays", the odds went up a couple and then
    went back down. How about that!!!
    All in all, I'm having a ball with this bingo. Just thought I would do a little inquiring.

    #2 11 months ago

    All bingos have a feature called 'guaranteed advancing odds' which was a feature coined during the one ball boom of the 1940s. Early one balls would randomly place your odds anywhere on the board and each coin put your odds in danger of major change.

    Bingo odds should never go down. You have a fault somewhere that is causing your odds to go up and down - probably just a minor switch adjustment needed. To help you narrow that down, I'll need to know more info: 1) Which odds are increasing? 2) During which button play do they increase? 3) Is there any rhyme or reason to it (like, only on replay play?)

    If the first ball doesn't come up on its own, I'd suspect dirt or a slightly maladjusted switch in your trough. Specifically, the farthest switch to the left (the 8th ball). This switch is directly tied to the lifter on game start. Your shutter switches also play a role here, so if that trough switch looks ok and reasonably clean, I'd look at the shutter.

    If it is scoring appropriately otherwise, these are relatively minor faults. For the step-up/down, I'd suspect that you have some broken down wire insulation somewhere. Since the bingos only step up/reset (remember, odds never decrease) you might also have some gummy odds steppers that are causing the whole problem...

    Have you hand-tested those odds steppers, by any chance? If not, turn the game off, go to the back, and locate the odds steppers (around the middle of the back door). Push in the plungers one at a time until they hit max (8 steps), then reset. Then do the same to seven steps. Each time, ensuring that the stepper steps crisply and smoothly to the next step and resets all the way quickly to pos 0. Carry on doing this all the way down to pos. 1. And do it for each color (red/yellow/green).

    A fault in the mechanical action or electrical contacts due to mechanical funkiness could possibly cause this, I think.

    Regardless, I always check for stepper action on any new (to me) game - just to make sure it is stepping reliably and the steppers are reasonably clean and gunk-free.

    Good luck!

    #3 11 months ago

    Thanks Nick for the input!
    I will open up the play field, again, and burnish the trough contacts
    as well as ol' rusty's contacts!
    I noticed in the play instructions(paper on the play field),
    "Press red button and deposit coin to start a game".
    The Red button does not seem to activate any thing.
    Also what does the button underneath the plunger do?

    #4 11 months ago

    Before doing anything I am noticing that the ball lifter is ALWAYS trying to lift the ball
    into play. It will accomplish this about 50% of the time.
    Going to look around the lifter mech.

    #5 11 months ago

    Dirty switch #8 still sounds likely, though mechanical issues (playfield not aligned) might be responsible.

    Red button will change which relays are engaged. Red button will light the red panel on the backglass. Otherwise, the function is invisible. It will play for scores and features.

    #6 11 months ago

    Guess what I found. See picture.
    It seems the weight of the other balls is not allowing the object ball
    to sit down and close the set of contacts.
    I thought I had my orig 8th ball problem. But no!
    This happens about 50% of the time.
    A slight jarring of the whole machine will move things along!!
    Disregard the second picture, I don't know how the get rid of
    it once I attach it.

    Bally ball 2 (resized).JPG

    Bally balls (resized).JPG

    #7 11 months ago

    I ment disregard the first picture!!

    #8 11 months ago

    Are the balls magnetized? The debuncher (weird metal gate thing in front of the lifter) is supposed to keep them separated, but perhaps not. Alternatively, your 8th ball trough switch is opening too soon. Check it in that position and ensure it is still activated.

    #9 11 months ago

    You have to adjust the ball lifter arm so the ball sits even with the other balls in the tray
    so your first doesn't get jammed, as shown in the picture.
    Your ball has to sit low enough to close the 'ball lifter switch' that sits below it.
    Its a common problem........ see schematic .
    Excerpt from Ball lifting Operation....... see below
    The ball lifter switch should be closed, because a ball is sitting in the lift mechanism, so we should have 50V at that three-way branch point.

    ScreenHunter_04 Mar. 30 19.20 (resized).jpg

    #10 11 months ago

    The write up says all trough contacts are open with no ball on them.
    I assume they do not mean the two sets of DPDT switches!
    I took a picture of my 8th ball contacts and the set of contacts just before them.
    Notice the actuator for the set of contacts before the 8th ball ones!
    This actuator is actually between the contacts; no other set of trough contacts has
    the actuator between the contacts;unless this set of contacts has to be closed
    with no ball!!!
    When all the balls are in the trough + one ball in the lift, the lift ball is lower than the trough
    balls, if this is what you meant.
    When the lift ball gets to the proper place it always actuates the lift switch.
    I will do more exploration tomorrow.
    It my come down to the lift not pushing the ball out, and when it returns, it get hung up; I
    can simulate this manually.

    contact before 8th ball (resized).JPG

    8th ball contact (resized).JPG

    #11 11 months ago

    @jkinpa is right - the lifter switch is crucial.

    If mechanical, @jkinpa is also right: you can adjust the throw on the lifter.

    I'm not super worried by your trough switch #8. I had it backwards in my head. However, it MUST read closed after the first ball is lifted off of the lifter switch. Make sure it is clean and closing fully.

    While the schem snippet posted above is good, it's not the whole picture. I haven't read that info in a long time. I'll have to re-read that, but in the absence... you're left with my explanation. That snippet works, but it's not drawn the same as your game.

    Look at C or D 14. You'll see that this is in line with your lift motor.

    Please look up from the motor - you'll see a set of three switches in parallel. This means that any one of them will cause the lifter to activate, assuming the rest of the stuff above is situated correctly.

    Look up from there and you'll see the manual ball lift. This is the switch that you're pushing under the shooter rod. The other switch, to the right on the schem is the lifter switch.

    Now, that lifter switch is actuated by a pin that drops down through the lifter casting. It is commonly rusted in place. If it doesn't move when a ball rolls over it, you'll have to free it up.

    #12 11 months ago

    I think terry's picture shows a ball that has been lifted but failed to exit into the shooter lane. There's two things:

    1] the playfield should be pulled back all the way to the front of the machine...or at least where the screws want it to be. Too far forward can cause eject problems and, much worse, the lift arm slamming into the wood and causing lift motor gear damage.

    2] turning the lift cam by hand may be too slow to get a ball to eject....a little momentum helps. However, if the ball is not coming out reliably, loosen the two screws on the linkage between the ball lift cams and lifter and make the linkage a little longer. That will raise the height the ball is lifted. Don't make it too long, that causes jams at the top.

    it's not really relevant to your issue, but a fun and obscure problem is the big arced metal piece below the lift pad getting bent. It's job is to prevent balls from rolling into the lift chute when the lifter is cycling, but it also needs to keep the trough balls more-or-less in place. If the thing gets bent toward the cabinet, the balls in the trough can shift right then back left as the lifter goes up/down. If they shift right far enough, the trough switches can change and you can get things like feature lockout happening a ball early.

    if the writeup says all the trough switches are open with no ball on them, I meant the ones in that circuit - the circuit that controls the ball lift motor. I'll take a look and clarify that. If you see things on the bingo site that make no sense (besides most of it), send in a comment and I'll try and reword it to make no sense a different way.

    #13 11 months ago

    Yes "baldwit"(there has to be a better name that I could call you) you have something there.
    My stacking ball "trick", I believe, was form my play field on the wrong position. The lifter could not
    get the ball out to the play position, thus the stacking.
    Now , 85% of the time, when I start a game, the machine will start to buzz, I open the
    play field and see that the lift did not get to the bottom to allow the next ball to operate
    the plunger and the set of contacts below it!!! If I open up the play field and take some
    pressure off of the seven balls pushing against the lift arm, away ever thing goes!!
    It makes sence that this only happens during a new game, first ball.
    I'm not sure if the lift arm is bent because of my stacking trick or not.
    If so, there does not seem to be an adjustment for this other than brute force.
    I don't believe grease is used in the ball side of the lift arm.
    BTW. I could not find any info on the pinouts of the jones plugs!
    So I started with the bingo numbers and there associated pins, may help someone with
    continuity checks. If this has already been done, I've learned something(I'm not done yet),
    if not, I can post it.

    #14 11 months ago

    Terry, plug sheet for the Bikini is on page 36 of the manual.

    #15 11 months ago

    Yes "okorange", but it does not tell you what pins are associated with what contacts; with out
    going to the schematics, which I have done.
    Also, the 8th ball pins are handy to know.

    #16 11 months ago

    Ah, got it. I've gone through that same exercise on some of my games to aid in troubleshooting. It would help if this was posted when you're done. Thanks!

    #17 11 months ago

    Here you go. Excuse the artistry!!!
    BTW, it appears that a lot of games seem to have common pinouts for lights,
    trough switches, etc!!!

    Bikini pinouts (resized).jpg

    #18 11 months ago

    "I also noticed, when I was clicking off a few "replays", the odds went up a couple and then
    went back down. How about that!!!"

    On some machines, during the spin cycle, the flashing odds lights seem slower and can look like a higher odds has been given. Then the real odds are given. The stepper can't step down. They could be reset and then step back up. This should be easy to watch what is actually happening from the back, just push in the start relay(use a stick or insulated item).

    #19 11 months ago
    Quoted from Terry1:

    Yes "baldwit"(there has to be a better name that I could call you) you have something there.
    Now , 85% of the time, when I start a game, the machine will start to buzz, I open the
    play field and see that the lift did not get to the bottom to allow the next ball to operate
    the plunger and the set of contacts below it!!! If I open up the play field and take some
    pressure off of the seven balls pushing against the lift arm, away ever thing goes!!
    I don't believe grease is used in the ball side of the lift arm.
    BTW. I could not find any info on the pinouts of the jones plugs!
    So I started with the bingo numbers and there associated pins, may help someone with
    continuity checks. If this has already been done, I've learned something(I'm not done yet),
    if not, I can post it.

    "twit" is fine

    so the first ball gets raised, but the lifter arm doesn't go all the way back down? The trough balls can't exert much force against the lift arm, and those gear motors have a ton of torque. I guess if the arm was trying to shift the balls left a little and they were jamming against the end of the trough 8 rollover, that could stall the motor...but it'd be hard to move the balls.

    seems more likely the carry-over switch on ball lift cam 1 is barely making contact. Is the buzzing arcing in that switch?

    the only lube needed on the lifter is the pivot point at the top and maybe a little on the motor rotor bearings so it pops out of the stator when the power is turned off. Don't get lube between the rotor and the stator...that will dry up and stick the rotor.

    Bally never documented the jones plugs beyond the plug charts. United did on some schematics. Usually you don't need to know what is on each pin until you are debugging a specific circuit, and then you're already on the schematic so you know the wire ids.

    if you are having two scores in the same color staying on, a switch on the spotting index unit is sticking closed. The light flashing during cycling is handled by a couple wipers on the spotting disc, but those should be disconnected when the wipers lock.

    #20 11 months ago

    Well,twit, this is what happened!
    I took apart the lift mech, as much as I dared;
    I analysed the s--- out of it;
    realized I did not know what I was doing;
    cleaned up what I could;
    put all back together;
    and away it goes!!!!!
    BTW, when I got that loud buzzing, it was coming from the head!

    #21 11 months ago

    You'll want to open up the game back and see what is locking on. That buzzing will happen for a little while, then will turn to a burning smell... and then your job gets a little harder.

    I would highly suggest hand-testing your steppers as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Standing in the back, with the back door open and pressing the start relay actuator plate will be enlightening. Note that 120V runs to the start relay. If possible press the plate with a small wooden dowel or something that won't give you a shock. Be careful not to press on the fiber board looking relay ladder itself. Those are very fragile.

    But watching from the back, with the ability to run to the front and shut it off is a good idea. I have my machines on a remote outlet, so I can switch them off and on during testing.

    Also, regarding your lifter - are you screwing down your playfield? I've got games that get a little cranky lifting if I play without the playfield screwed down.

    #22 11 months ago

    for the buzzing, it sounds like the timer unit step up coil was sticking on, which means your ball lifter was stalling as it was lifting switch 2A. It doesn't seem like much effort to lift a switch stack, but if your on the edge of stalling anyway, the extra force may do it.

    I don't remember the ball lift cam config on bikini. Usually one of stacks 2 or 3 is lifted by a pin. Make sure the blades on that stack aren't bent way down so the pin has to lift the blades way further than necessary - that just makes the motor work harder.

    as bpc said, keeping powered any of the coils with plungers (solenoids) that aren't designed with a low-power hold-on circuit will fairly quickly let the smoke out of the coil. A little smoke won't usually kill you tho, there's some to spare.

    I usually plugged the game into a power strip with a switch on it. Makes life easy turning the game off from the back. If you hold down the anti-cheat relay plate (ok, "armature" since I'm getting pedantic in my dotage), when you turn the game back on the machine will almost always keep doing whatever it was doing when you turned it off.

    unlike bcp, I just used my finger to push down the armatures and often pushed on the top of the bakelite switch blade lifter. 'course, I had spares if I broke one, and wasn't worried about getting zapped - what would loss? I did tend to use a wooden meat skewer to trip the trip relays tho.

    if you really need to clean the lifter pivot point, you need to undo the linkage to the ball lift cams and remove the c-clip holding the lift arm on the pivot shaft. If you are lucky, you can move the arm bits around enough to slide it off. When you aren't lucky, you start removing things in the way. When the arm is really clean and lubed, the weight of the arm will turn the ball lift cams assuming the motor rotor is popped out of the gearbox like it should be with the power off.

    #23 11 months ago

    I was comparing the player instruction cards(S/I cards I guess) on my
    Bikini compared to what I am seeing on line on other Bikini's; I posted a picture
    of my cards. Can any one tell me if my cards are original or not ???

    S I card (resized).JPG

    #24 11 months ago

    Not correct. PM me and I will send you a new correct set.

    #25 11 months ago

    Back in my original trouble shooting of my machine I found a wire disconnected.
    I was able to trace it to Jones Plug # 1 pin 93-7.
    I can not find that pin(wire) on my schematic. If any one knows of this wire's
    function would you mind letting me know in what area of the schematic you found it!!
    BTW, thank you Dennis Dodel for interest and help!!!!

    #26 11 months ago

    This wire goes to the replay meter from CU Cam #3B. It should have no effect on game play. See schematic at B-18.

    #27 11 months ago

    Good eyes 'okorange".I missed it.I must have gone by that spot at least 10 times!!
    Some day I am going to come up with a pinout/contact location for every Jones
    plug pin!!!
    Thanks again "okorange"!

    #28 11 months ago
    Quoted from Terry1:

    Some day I am going to come up with a pinout/contact location for every Jones
    plug pin!!!

    take a look at the replay reset relay switch E. Got wires on it? If yes, does one loop over to replay reset switch A wire 53-7 and the other go to the cabinet plug - possible wire 53-17 - and wind up dangling loose on/behind the ball trough?

    if the above is all yes, don't spend too long looking for 53-17 on the schematic .. it's not there. That would be the wire for the "coin out" meter - the meter that counts the number of credits taken off the replay register at power-on.

    #29 11 months ago

    I see the replay reset relay.It has wires on all contacts.
    After looking at the game manual I can't figure out the contact
    I did find the start relay!
    I noticed a wire off the anti cheat relay.
    I saw a wire off(appears cut) the "replays" counter.
    I seems to be the loose wire I have. All though the loose wire does not reach
    the counter.
    See pictures.
    Some times, it appears, best to leave well enough alone.

    Broken wire (resized).JPG

    Loose wire (resized).JPG

    Anti cheat relay (resized).JPG

    Replay reset relay (resized).JPG

    #30 11 months ago
    Quoted from Terry1:

    I see the replay reset relay.It has wires on all contacts.
    After looking at the game manual I can't figure out the contact
    I did find the start relay!
    I noticed a wire off the anti cheat relay.
    I saw a wire off(appears cut) the "replays" counter.
    I seems to be the loose wire I have. All though the loose wire does not reach
    the counter.

    did you see page 26 of the manual? That has the switch diagrams which shows how the switches are stacked.

    your E switch on the replay reset relay has wire 41 on one blade - that wire is connected to the replay register reset coil, so whenever a credit is removed, the pulse will show up there. When the replay reset relay is powered (game turned on and credits being removed), the wire 41 pulse gets connected to what looks like a black/orange wire ... so 87-x. Where that wire goes...sadly, there's no 87-x wire on the cabinet plugs, so reality is putting a damper on a reasonably theory....unless it's not really black/orange.

    your F switch on the anti-cheat isn't in the that a gray plastic wire on the one blade, and it's dangling out of the harness in the replay reset pic ... i.e. someone added that switch/wire?

    anyway, don't worry about the loose wires around the ball trough. The game could support at least three meters, so there's usually unconnected wires floating around there.

    #31 11 months ago

    About tilting the front of the head down.
    Is there anything I should be mind full of, other than probably
    not doing it!!

    #32 11 months ago

    I find it to be very useful in troubleshooting control unit problems or the relays which are sometimes mounted to the back of the backboard. Also, if you rebuild the replay register, it's a necessity.

    Unscrew and remove one side of the head trim, then carefully take out your backglass (without applying pressure to the front - which will prevent scratches).

    Then you can fold down the backboard.

    Be aware that though this feature exists, it is not helpful for all problems - that's why the back opens, too!

    Mixer/spotting problems are best served from the back, and /most/ control unit problems - but not all.

    There's really no good way to service the screen unit without folding that board down, either (except to change the card lamps).

    Don't drop it and you should be fine. I am VERY gentle with it, since there's so much stuff hanging on it - probably more gentle than I need to be.

    #33 11 months ago

    Just when I thought things were good, the CU no longer turns
    when the bingo is first turned on. I did not tilt down the front.
    The mixer & spotting unit motor turns!
    If I put in a coin, the Mixer #2 relay continuously chatters.
    This started all of a sudden!!!!

    #34 11 months ago

    There are three switches that cut off the power to the CU - one is on the tilt trip, and in line is the 8th step on the timer. There is another path through the replay reset relay.

    I'd suggest taking a look at that 8th step timer switch. It's the most likely culprit. It is normally closed, and opens when the timer reaches the top. Also, ensure that the timer is resetting.

    #35 11 months ago

    The timer unit step & reset coils do not engage.
    Mixer # 4 relay coil engages.
    For some reason the red button relay engages.
    Not sure what you mean buy the 8th step timer switch!
    By the timer , do you mean the timer disc with the step & reset coils?

    #36 11 months ago

    Yes, I do.

    There's a switch on the 8th step that shuts off the cu motor. Step it manually to the 8th position,with the game off, and see if that switch changes state.

    #37 11 months ago

    Are either solenoid on the timer unit supposed to engage
    when you turn on the pin?

    #38 11 months ago

    An observation!
    Just out of curiosity I measured the voltage on the Mixer & Spotting unit motor = 120VAC, as
    I would expect since it is running.
    I measured the voltage on the CU motor, which is my issue since it is not turning, = 120VAC!
    I did not expect to see 120AC on the CU motor; I believed that this voltage is switched some how!
    Either I am wrong on how this CU motor is supplied it's voltage, or something is stopping it
    from turning, OR, the motor just gave up, OR, I really don't know!!

    #39 11 months ago

    After a closer look at the schematic it seems that I may have a motor issue.
    In order for me to get 120VAC on my CU motor I need:
    Open at 8th timer unit switch closed & Tilt trip switch closed
    Timer cam index switch closed
    Appropriate Replay reset relay contact closed
    One of the above things has to be happening to get 120VAC at my motor!

    #40 11 months ago

    Correct. And if one or more of those conditions are met and your motor is not turning, you may have a dead motor.

    #41 11 months ago

    Working Spotting motor = 12.5 Ohms
    Not working CU motor = 8.9 Ohms
    Both motors are the same.
    Both motors disconnected on one side to eliminate
    parallel resistances!
    Is there a post on replacing a CU motor or instructions
    else where ??
    BTW, on my Pin out for the bingo lights, continuity is spelled wrong
    as well as continuity is to the 17V line!!!

    #42 11 months ago

    To replace motor, you need a pin punch set.

    Unscrew the motor mount, find the roll pin. Knock out the roll pin and save it...

    Align your new motor and then hammer the pin into the link. Screw it all down, then test. You don't have to disassemble any of the rest of the cu. Unless you want to.

    #43 11 months ago

    If it's OK I would like to start a new post on my CU motor

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