I've been contemplating trying to go by PPS and check out their MMR one of these days (possibly next weekend if I can) if I do I'll inquire with rick about it.

Sure thing, I need to find his number and give him a call maybe this weekend and see if it's possible for next weekend. if you've been in contact with him before he may be keeping an eye on it to see potential interest, or he may just be busy with other things at this time (MMR im sure is keeping him busy these last few weeks). But I'm sure someone asking about ti would help.

Kholmes. I personally have no problem with your doing this and your ramp would be best for people who only need the one ramp. The original tool I have for police force has both the inner and outer ramps on it. So when I do my run in 6 months, I will have to reproduce both ramps. Since the inner ramp vastly outsells the outer I will be forced to sell them as a complete set. If I did not do that I would be forced to trash the outer ramps increasing the price of the inner ramp drastically. So if you want to just order the inner ramp and have the know how to transfer the hardware yourself and don't care about decals you would be better off buying Kholmes ramp assuming the quality is there. When I produce my ramp, it will be with thicker plastic, all hardware attached and decals. I'm not upset with competition cause in the end, it is better for the hobby.

It's been pointed out to me that I neglected to let everyone know who I am so I've changed my profile. I'm Larry Rosenthal and I bought the ramp manufacturing business from Pinball Inc. The ramps are now being reproduced under the Starship Fantasy brand, www.starship-fantasy.com.

High enough that everyone would be pissed off. This is why I'm going to be selling them only as a set.

My guess is that the price will be right in the $250 range. I can not give you a date certain for release because I depend on 4 companies to manufacture the parts that we will assemble here in Glendale, AZ. I can tell you it is on the short list, 6 months is my best guess and I will do everything within my power to get it done in that time frame.

Larry, I was already planning to buy an outer ramp too, so a set would be fine with me, but about how many sets will be made when you get these run? And will you allow any preorders? I am not as frequent on the forum as I should be to keep track of these things and am afraid when they do get ran I'll miss out.

I'm ok waiting the 6 months because of the quality I know I'll be getting, but I want to make sure I don't wait for nothing.

Maybe a dumb question, but why don't you just produce more inner ramps than outer ramps? Make them at a 3 ratio and you won't have to "trash" anything.

It may be that the mold requires both ramps be produced. My question is why not just throw away the molded material for the outer ramp which would only add materials cost and no labor or machining costs to the inner ramp, which shouldn't be all that much.

Both ramps are on the same tool. You can't make one but Schwaggs suggestion is worth investigating. I will see what's possible when I actually run the ramps. I suspect that the thermoforming company would add a surcharge to the cost. While I would save the cost of cnc-ing the ramp there is a problem with all the scrap it would create. It has to be stored and sold on the open market for pennies on the dollar. It's reground and formed into new sheets which I can't use. I only use virgin plastic.

No, the reason that there are still outer ramps in stock is because that ramp doesn't get beat to hell like the center ramp does, and owners don't need to replace them often. PI ran both (the same amount and apparently, on the same double mold) and ONLY the center ramp sold out. They were not originally sold as a bundle. The outer has been in stock for ages.

That should tell anyone looking at this situation the obvious truth of the matter:

We don't need outer ramps, and anyone buying a "set" is most likely doing so only to get the center ramp. In other words - spending TWICE what they need to get the one part.

That's just... wrong. Intentionally bundling something at 2x the price because you know darn well that the market only wants ONE ramp? Hmmm.... you've still got plenty of the outer ramps in stock. They would have sold if anyone needed them. So your solution then, is to force everyone who does need ONLY a center ramp, to buy another expensive part that we DON'T need? That would still leave you with a large overstock of original run outer ramps - just like you have now. How about making a newer mold from a NOS or repro center ramp and just running those - half the material cost and you are actually providing a very desired piece that would sell in minutes. Police Force is an $800-1200 game TOPS. Do you think very many people are going to spend over 1/4 the value of the machine on ramps, when they don't even need the outer one?

Kholmes, I'd go ahead and get on this. Honestly, I was been told by PI over a year ago that those ramps would be done in a "couple months". I was told again at the Chicago Pin Expo "oh we're going to run those soon" Now, we're told that in order to get the center ramp - if and when it ever actually gets made - that we have to buy both ramps at a rather high price? I'm tired of the waiting, the games, and constantly shifting narrative. This now makes the THIRD different "story" I've been told by PI/SF/whomever owns the darn rights to the molds in the last 2 years about these ramps. And still nothing...

No thanks. I'd rather buy two of Kholmes' center ramps at $125 each than buy one of each for the same price. I'm certainly in for two at $75 which is a no brainer. Spending $250 for the set just doesn't make one lick of sense. Sorry.

I appreciate all your comments and I will try my best to explain why some of your suggestions are just not possible. Pinball Inc, in June of 2009, produced 100 of each ramp. I currently have 38 outer ramps in stock. That means 62 pinheads purchased the outer ramp even when they did not need to. No one needs the outer ramp is just not true. Some pinheads would rather buy both ramps even if they only need one because they just do not want a 26 year old ramp next to a brand new one. Some buy both ramps just in case because they love the game and don't foresee ever selling it. I am not intentionally bundling the ramps. The original Williams mold as I have said before has both ramps on it.

The obvious and at first easiest solution would be to make a new mold for the inner ramp. I do not use nor will I ever use a urethane mold. To make an epoxy mold will cost around $5000. This means that in order to break even on a run of 100, I would have to add $50.00 to the cost of the ramp. Note I'm saying break even, no profit. It took 4 years to sell the 100 inner ramps. The next 100 will take longer than that because there is always a pop when a new title is produced. The pop will not be as great the second time around. So $50.00 gets added to the cost of the ramps in hopes that I will recover the cost of the mold in 4 to 8 years. In the future I will be willing to use some of the profits to produce ramps that the community needs even though a profit is not possible but during the time I am still paying for the business, I have a negative cash flow each month and I simply can not afford to do this at this time.

Your price for the mold is lower cause you're using a urethane mold.

Since the inner ramp vastly outsells the outer I will be forced to sell them as a complete set. If I did not do that I would be forced to trash the outer ramps increasing the price of the inner ramp drastically.

How can you type what I just quoted, and then turn around and say "I'm not intentionally bundling the ramps"???? That is exactly what you are doing, and you just said so.

I don't think owners of the machine who need a new ramp, really care what the mold is made from. I know I don't. We aren't playing molds, we're playing pinball machines and you CAN'T play PF without a functional inner ramp.

Anyone who *needs* an outer ramp can buy one. Right now. But, they aren't selling, are they? That tells me that anyone who truly did *need* an outer ramp already bought one. The fact that the inners outsold the outer ramps 2-1 is exactly my point. The need is for the inner ramps - not a part that is readily available. Making more of them seems... silly and wasteful. Yes, some folks will spring to replace both ramps out of their OCD need to perfect a pin. The rest of us, would simply like to play a cool, old game that doesn't have a lot of market value - but that kids, grandparents, and regular non-pinheads really enjoy.

$5k for a single ramp mold is absurd. We live in an age of 3d printing and all kinds of manufacturing tech that simply did not exist 25 yrs ago. There are better, more cost effective ways to get the parts made today.

If there is a cheaper way to make the ramps, then I'm ALL ABOUT IT. So kholmes, (a regular guy and not a manufacturer of pins or parts) can come up with a much better price, and your response is "the mold is $5k and I have to bundle the ramps together and double the price in order to make it work". Interesting...

Get on it kholmes!! I've heard as much I need to at this point. SF obviously isn't going to do these (at least not anytime soon, or at a price that makes sense) and those of us with a broken game are sitting on an $800 paperweight.

Believe me when I say Vacuum forming isn't as cut and dry and easy as most people think. Myself included.

I had some pretty defined visions of what it took to make a ramp, and upon actually seeing it done and the amount of time it takes, it's completely different than what I thought. I had visions of stamping out ramps at a fast pace, similar to metal stamping, but a single pull off the tool can take 6-8 minutes per pull between heating and cooling depending on the size/type of the tool. And that doesn't include rough trimming, cnc, final prepping and any hardware installation.

They personally test fit the ramps several times through several iterations to tweak the CNC and ramp tooling to get the best quality before the ramps are run. It's part science, and part art.

I've seen seen the whole process in person, and the type of tool does make a difference in the final product, and each additional pull from an inferior tool makes an increasingly inferior product as the tool deteriorates. The cheaper tools are made for much lighter use.

3D printing is not capable of anything remotely like this. Not even close. Not to mention that most 3D printers are not even close to being able to print anything that big. 3D printing is useful, it's just not useful in vacuum forming.

The reason Larry is running both is he's already got the original tool, which when Williams made it had both ramps on them.

I should also add you'll need to build two fixtures usually. One for the forming, and one for the CNCing.

Usually they will destroy one of the formed sheets by pouring epoxy in them to make an epoxy tool to hold the ramp for CNCing.

Might help if you listened to the guy that explained the cost. He seemed more than reasonable in explaining why he sells the way he does. You simply didn't like the answer. Your solution would be for him to either a) do a run of plastic ramps knowing he will scrap half the run (outer lanes) and eat the cost. Or b) dive in and spend more money on a new mold for the center ramp.

While I wish you luck making your new mold, I also am hoping you realize the extant of work it will take and have asked enough questions to get a clear estimate that encompasses all the extras that seem to pop up in mold making and plastics. Are you planning on doing a preorder for these or just spending you own cash and then hoping to do a run that will cover expenses?

I'm asking because if you preorder and the costs become more than you expect you'll end up either asking for more funds or eating the cost. If you go out of pocket and the project ends up going over budget, you will have to raise your prices and hope that people still find it acceptable and not just get upset that it's a higher price for a plastic ramp without the extras.

while you at it, keep in mind you'll need to factor in any additional fees like paypal, shipping and packaging.

Best of luck, look forward to seeing how this goes

Regardless of all the price justifications, I'd like to see Kholmes move forward with this project.

Since the inner ramp will not be a money maker, it is low priority. Thus, despite our waiting, it might NEVER come to fruition. Even if it does, we will probably be forced to pay top dollar for the set of ramps even though most of us have no need for the outter ramp. Even if we did need the outter ramp, there are plenty of them out there.

Kholmes, please dismiss the bickering and rhetoric and move forward when you feel confident you can break even on this project. Please do this for your fellow Police Force owners, such as myself, and the pinball community at large. All of us will thank you and appreciate your commitment and dedication to pinball. When I come to Cleveland, I will find you and personally thank you and buy you many beers. I'd hope that other would do the same.

Finally, I ask the others that actually need only the inner ramp to promote this thread however you can so we can get more buyer to kholmes. Let's quit talking, take action, and get this done.

Thank you!!

My order has already been spoken for.

Not knocking you for being persistent just wanting to make sure you know the full cost and procedures. Best of luck hope it comes together at the price / quality that everyone wants

When you get quotes for the mold be sure to ask them how many parts can be pulled with that mold. best of luck.

Where I'm at right now is I have requested 2 quotes from the thermoforming company. One to do both ramps and one to destroy the outer ramp and just CNC the inner. When I get that quote I will decide if it is feasible to produce just the inner ramp and the production of the ramp (s) will be put in the queue to be run. Hopefully it can be done in less than 4 months. We'll see.

Very interested to see the different quotes, or at least how they compare since I don't really expect Larry to divulge all his costs.

Hope this will materialize.. I badly need that center ramp.

Matt in Sweden

Well here's the latest info. The thermoforming company will begin production of the ramps tomorrow. Baring any unforeseen setbacks, it should take them a little over a week to form and CNC cut the ramps. Figure another week or so to get them to me and a day or two to flame polish and assemble. Please don't flood me with emails now. I'll announce here when they are ready for shipment. I am only going to sell them as a set for the same price that was set 5 years ago, $238. For those of you who insist on ordering only the inner ramp you can do so via email to [email protected]. The cost for the inner ramp alone is $208. I was pretty sure this is how it would work out but I did try.

I meant to say I'm only going to sell them as a set on my website.

So... it's been over a month since you said two weeks.

Any updates on the status of these ramps?

No worries Starship.....stuff happens.

I continue to be amazed at how many things can go wrong and delay the production of ramps. The thermoforming company decided on their own to change the order of production and "passed over" the Police Force ramps. I am really getting gun shy on predicting timing because it seems I'm always wrong. It's frustrating to you and me as well. Hopefully 2 more weeks.

I have a Police Force for sale or trade. Will post pics and info shortly.

I just need the center ramp............ !

Wow. TWO MONTHS since "Two weeks". And.... still nothing.

I am simply flabbergasted at this point. We're back at square one with no ETA and broken pins that can't be played.

Do you see what's happening? Everyone who's been waiting (for years!) for these ramps are just giving up and selling the damn things. The game is unplayable without the center ramp.

Just... sad.

FINALLY. The ramps are in my hands along with all the hardware and decals. Personally I can't believe how long it took. I hope you can bear with me as I learn the hard way everything that can go wrong and delay production. Ramps can be ordered off the website,
starship-fantasy.com.

Outer ramp $119.00
Inner ramp $208.00
Set $238.00

Hooray!

let the guitar solos begin

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was looking for one back when I had the machine.

It's awesome that you finally were able to sort out the reproduction issues and get these on the market.