Nothing. It's only worth what someone is willing to pay. Maybe you can say it's worth $9k if JJP gets new SE orders @ $9k.

But it's way too early to even think that a $7500 preorder is magically worth $9000. At the moment, I'm more worried that my $7500 preorder is worth $6500.

So to those that don't like it, don't buy it. Seems pretty simple to me. It's a game, a toy, something for fun and amusement. There are tons of other machines to buy, new and old. Because TH doesn't live up to everyone's expectations is not the end of the world.

JJP better fix the center ramps with something, looked like a whitewood at the expo to me.

JJP has consistently offered full refunds for any reason for all their games. I would only worry if maybe you're in the first 50 games and would like to see a finished game first. Call Jen and get your order moved back a bit if you'd like to see what you get without cancelling. JJP instilled a great value in WOZ and I expect the same for Hobbit.

"Worth" 9k?? Huh? lol (I think that is the thought process Jack was hoping you would have, lol.) If someone paid a full 9k I would be absolutely shocked. That is simply MSRP and you should be able to get it for closer to $8250 if it's just like the 75th edition WOZ (which is also listed at an MSRP of 9k.) Regardless ... if the game is "worth" 9k to you then great, but you're being very foolish IMO if you think you'll be able to sell the game for much more than 7k a year+ from now.

And people actually switching from the LE to the SE because they think it's "worth" more are in the same category because I will bet there will be almost no value difference between the 2 editions in a year either. Switch because you prefer one set of cabinet art over the other. Not for any other reason.

I played this game at Expo and it plays painfully slow. The ball just floats around in that huge open play field. The ball floats around in WOZ too but there are a lot of things for the ball to interact with in WOZ. I don't think a wide open play field is a good idea on a wide body. This should have been a standard width game.

WOOLY is an example of a good wide body pin design. Tons of shots all over the place and great flow and speed. Right now the Hobbit is a snoozer.

<Moved to another thread>

The TBL code in the exhibit hall was far from awesome. I take it you were at the VIP party if you played until 3:30 AM and got to see more of the code. That's great however the majority of people were not there and only got to play the code in the exhibit hall, which wasn't much. So before telling someone they don't know shit you have to realize not everyone got to experience the game as you did. I felt the game was lackluster because of the code and feel it needs to come a long way before it's crowned a great game. I had a very long game as well and got to hit many of the shots, however it was a snooze fest because nothing really worked besides a multiball and bowling.

Code can make or break a game and even though TH has a far way to come as well at least Keith is established and has written some killer codes. I wish the best for TBL because I loved the movie and always wished they would make a pin, but theme and toys alone do not make a great game. I hope the code on TBL can compliment the game because it has some great potential.

I agree that bad code can definitely ruin a game. But I do not believe code alone can "make" a game. Although important, there is a LOT more than code to a great game.

The playfield layout for hobbit doesn't impress me at all. Of course how it plays is what really matters. I think they went a bit overboard on the drop targets. Hopefully they don't keep cycling like I saw in the expo videos... That constant noise would be annoying after a while.

Rob

This is probably a silly question but im a jjp paying customer and I dont have access to the Google group. How do I get in?

Code is absolutely critical to a modern games success. Without it a game is nothing. Theme is important, but code is key. Of course other things to into it, but the code is what makes a game fun or not. It is what makes you want to play it again or not.

Yep, exactly. If the code is bad it can ruin a game. I was just saying that if the code is great ... it's possible to still not be a great game. All sorts of things can still ruin the game ... bad layout, no flow, lack of toys, bad incorporation of theme, etc. etc.

So name them. Which games have great code that are ruined by other factors? Great code is pretty difficult to achieve. So I don't see it wasted in crap games very often.

I would say it like this ... you can rewrite the code all you want (with Keith and Lyman combined) on a game like Rolling Stones ... I'm still gonna puke on that game. Code alone was not the issue and code alone would not have made it a great game.

Game designers (layout) ... sound engineers ... mechanical engineers (designing awesome toys) ... graphics artists .. sculptors ... etc. etc. all play an important role in a great game. So coming back to Hobbit ... do you feel great code alone can turn this into a great game? Possibly. Some might think so, many would not at this point.

+1

Call or email Jen at Pinball Sales .. she'll get you added.

Correct, Mick on a stick was the issue there. A catastrophic choice in the game design. However I disagree. I bet if you had both Lyman and Keith get together on it they could turn it into an absolute hero of a game. Add in a modification to the moving target and heck, I might even want to buy one.

So you are giving me a game that you don't feel could be saved, and I think even that turd could be stood up with two of the greatest game programmers of our age.

Call Jen at JJP during regular office hours and she will get you all set.

If you feel that way then Hobbit has got to be an incredible game for you. You've got Keith at the helm. You're done. You probably had no interest in the physical game reveal. But I personally think you're significantly undervaluing the importance of a great game designer, great artists, great sound engineers, great mechanical engineers, etc. etc.

I tend to think the complete opposite from you (no big deal though). I really don't care about 40-50% of the code/rules (such as in WOZ) because I'll never see it anyway (or only see it 1 in 50 games.) I guess that's why I love visually stunning games with many mechanical toys (and why I love modding my games and adding ever more bling.) I care much more about artistic content (video animation, dots, artwork, and music/sounds.) That is what makes the game most fun to me ... not just saying "there are 28 different modes!!".

That's funny Bojo because before we went up three of us in line bought it after a playing it. On the spot. Ok does not work for you yet for 90% of the rest of us that experienced it there was enough of it there to say F yeah!
I had the money ready to buy and TBL earmed it and the hobbit sucked balls. Plans were the opposite but that's what being there made evident.
And yes Keith is always worth betting on but man this layout will challenge him beyond belief.

I dont worry about the gameplay at all.

I worry about lightning, lightshows, interesting toys. The lack of all that.

Woz light show is amazing. On the hobbit i see 10 little green or red lights. Thats it. I just miss the triple A feel woz gives me.

And i dont like woz as a theme, dont like the lay out. But woz is a triple A game in looks and how it plays.

Dont see it yet from the hobbit.

And that book smells to a jjp mod incoming. Which you can buy later on.

I just cant believe it. LitterLy thousands of hobbit toys and figures to chose from to put in the game. And they put in a turning head on a rock what does nothing, and a book what does even less.

Please don't give them any more crazy ideas.

Seriously, if they want to sell after market things like a topper, or a game specific plunger mod, or other external aesthetics (cabinet lighting?), then fine. Great idea. But if you're going to start holding back on game elements that should have been there from the start (especially on an $8k+ game) then forget it. Pinball is doomed.

JJP going with that EA business model - sell a full game off in parts (i.e. completed by buying expansion packs until you have the full game)

He may need a bigger net come Monday, I imagine he will have a hundred or so cancellations come in. Really sad what he showed and what he said "20 million spent so far". The axes on slings, the silly looking book and even more worse then to quote Rarehero, "red snapper dragon" is the hideous plastic tail vuk. Not sure how they fix all of this or even if they did if it would be fun to shoot. Keith can make amazing code but that does not change the shots. Shooting at drop targets I am sorry is not and two super far back ramps does not in my mind make a fun game. Hope this sells because I want to see Pat Lawlor get a new game.

I have to admit I am still all in on the Hobbit. My THSE is paid in full. I only wish the best for JJP. As an owner of Stern games and as a possibly naive student of the game (I only started playing pinball in 1968), I still believe the recent Stern stuff, particularly the Pro models, are very value oriented with severe limitations in long term value and play. How many Stern games are in the pinside's top 10? Just 2. I love the older games out there. I suspect WOZ will gain traction with age. BUT, that said, JJP only has a short window to get it right. TH is not WOZ in color or shear beauty. Jack needs to please the Tolkien fans and the pinheads to be successful. The current rendition of the Hobbit is lacking. The book is a non-starter, and even Smaug is disappointing. Code is huge but not everything. I patiently await the finished Hobbit. I profoundly value the complex, totally compelling and intriguing games. Unfortunately, for me, this is a hobby, but for Jack Ty his is a living and a legacy. Good luck JJP, but get this game right, even if it means delaying the launch, or I sadly suspect there will not be many more launches.

Bingo, we have a winner! I wonder if Mike is working with JJP, he has a great AC/DC video mod or if Jack just picked off his idea. Video mod coming is a GUARANTEE.

Lots of add ons it seems with Hobbit.

Someone told me to buy a stern batman because Lyman was finishing the software and it would be great. I asked how that would make the joker coffee can any better, comparisons to this and smaug have obviously been made. Also, was the code going to make the hotwheel on the bridge interactive, no. While great code can make or break a great design, even awesome code can't save a broken design.

Dupe