(Topic ID: 107195)

Final Coat of Varathane - I beseech thee, What Now???

By goingincirclez

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 9 years ago by BJM-Maxx
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    #1 9 years ago

    OK, first off: I had to settle for not just Varathane, but brushing it on as well. Yes, I know there are better solutions and preferable methods. But for my situation, this is how it had to be. I accepted that and plowed on bravely.

    And you know what? It looks GREAT. I applied my final coat last night and this morning it was nice and level... not razor-flat, but waaaaaaay better than where this pf was when I started. And no nasty keyline edges and such. So it's almost done I think, except for two things:

    1) Wouldn't you know it, there is a tiny line of pinprick bubbles in one spot. Is there a safe way to remove just this spot? On previous coats I of course sanded the whole bf in between... but I am hoping this one can count as the final.

    2) I have read here and on other woodworking forums. Apparently sanding a final coat of Varathane - even with intent to work to finer grades - is something you DO NOT DO. But nobody's really gone past that. So, what SHOULD I do as far as a recommended final polish and wax? I assume the auto polishes work best for auto clears. I understand Varathane is not quite as durable, so I don't want to screw it up.

    Since I am a glutton for punishment, I do NOT have a power buffer - I painted this by hand, cleared by hand, sanded by hand.... yeah, I'm an old-school idiot. But this is new to me. So what is the best way to proceed and finish this without destroying my hard work and thrilling (to this point) results?

    #2 9 years ago

    I think it's OK to sand the final layer if needed - I've done it both ways with good results.

    Here's what I'd do... and I'm old school too, with a very similar situation I had to deal with on a Bally Expressway - I would mask off the area you don't want to sand with cabinet drawer liner... it's tough and just sticky enough to stay in place while you sand. I'd start with 600 grit; once those bubbles are sanded out (and you haven't ripped through the top layer), switch to 1000 grit.. and then finish with 1500 grit. Final polish with 3M finesse it II, then Novus 2. Some folks use Novus 3 prior to Novus 2... that works too. You should be able to get it as clear as glass. One thing I notice though, is if that topcoat hasn't had time to really get hard, it's very hard to get extremely fine lines out of the topcoat during polishing, so if your topcoat hasn't had at least 4 weeks to dry, I'd wait longer prior to sanding.
    good luck and let us know how it turns out.

    #3 9 years ago
    Quoted from Dono:

    I think it's OK to sand the final layer if needed - I've done it both ways with good results.
    Here's what I'd do... and I'm old school too, with a very similar situation I had to deal with on a Bally Expressway - I would mask off the area you don't want to sand with cabinet drawer liner... it's tough and just sticky enough to stay in place while you sand. I'd start with 600 grit; once those bubbles are sanded out (and you haven't ripped through the top layer), switch to 1000 grit.. and then finish with 1500 grit. Final polish with 3M finesse it II, then Novus 2. Some folks use Novus 3 prior to Novus 2... that works too. You should be able to get it as clear as glass. One thing I notice though, is if that topcoat hasn't had time to really get hard, it's very hard to get extremely fine lines out of the topcoat during polishing, so if your topcoat hasn't had at least 4 weeks to dry, I'd wait longer prior to sanding.
    good luck and let us know how it turns out.

    Was that your Expressway at York this year? It looked and played great!

    #4 9 years ago

    I'm going to bed but logged in just to answer this.

    As a painter, I would suggest you sand it down nice. Get it perfectly smooth. Go to HD or the paint store and by a paint roller pan and what's called a 9" lambs wool. The wool wraps around and gets locked into the block.

    IMPORTANT - Gently stir NOT shake the Varathane. Shaking adds air to the product hence the potential for bubbles. Also, add a little paint thinner to the Varathane. That will thin out a little and help it to spread smoothly. Varathane can be thick and a little thinner goes a long way.

    To coat - Add some varathane to the pan. Then, dip the lambs wool in it to lightly coat the wool. DON'T flood it. You'll have too much product and it will make it a pain for you. So dab it in there lightly. For more control you could use your paint brush to apply the Varathane to the wool. Dip the brush and brush it onto the wool. Anyway, after dabbing to coat the wool, wipe off the excess inside the pan and then run the wool over your PF. This will apply the varathane perfectly clean and smooth and you'll have no brush strokes or imperfections. Thus a perfect finish.

    There is nothing hard about this. It's really simple, even if you've never done it before. So don't be afraid.

    PM me if you need more info. If you were near me, I'd come do it for you myself. Takes 5 minutes. Just make sure you sand it perfectly smooth and clean it perfectly. I highly recommend a tack cloth for the final cleaning stage.

    Logging off for the night. I'll check in tomorrow. Good luck!

    #5 9 years ago

    Dono: that sounds sensible. Instead of freaking out I'm trying to be patient, and give it plenty of cure time while I tend to other things. It does seem to settle a bit more, so I might get OCD and decide to sand and coat again "just one last time".

    Actually, that brings up a question: I see people letting these things cure for days... weeks... months at a time. I get that longer is better if you can hack it, so why not, but... the instructions say 2 hours setting time; recoat anytime after that but sand first after 24; cures subject to normal use after 3 days. OK, so maybe a little extra time couldn't hurt... but how much better does exponentiating this actually make it?

    Quoted from Pinfidel:

    I'm going to bed but logged in just to answer this.... [*drops advice*]

    Thank you! I caught that just before bed myself so your efforts were not in vain. I think I read something similar on another site before I started, so this reminder is a good one. I did only gently stir the Varathane and never had bubbles in the can. I think what I got this time was purely an incidental byproduct of brushing.

    But now that it's cured for a couple days and there's just a hint of ripple in a few places, I might suppress my temptation to reassemble things... sand it once more, look for the wool pad and do that for my double-plus-good final coat.

    Really, I'm not sure I can make this thing glass-flat razor perfect smooth, but even as I have it now, it's WAAAAAAAY better than it was... the now imperceptible insert keylines are testament to that. I just don't want any imperfections to cause faster wear (even though home use should not be as bad as route life, etc).

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    THANK YOU BOTH for the advice! I greatly appreciate it.

    #6 9 years ago

    Yes, that was my Expressway, and thanks, it's a very underrated game IMO. Love that pointy-people artwork - I got truly hooked on pinball playing a Williams Gulfstream - one of the ultimate pointy people games (still have that game today). Ok, back to the thread...

    What is ironic is that the playfield prior to clearcoating was already faded compared to the original playfield on the game - it was from Florida - go figure! So the fading wasn't from the clear, as claimed by a few know-it-alls at the show. That being said - It's true that you don't want a ton of coats on a playfield...I've seen EMs done with 6+ coats and I can tell they're cleared, and somewhat dingy. I prefer one light coat, one heavy coat - top off inserts for leveling... sand them flat (I like to wait 3 weeks or so to give time for the topcoat to fully cure, especially above the inserts) then one heavy coat to complete. I don't really like to sand the topcoat, it's usually flat, shiny, and no bubbles or imperfections after it's dried. However, I have had issues though on the final coat that I just couldn't live with... so I waited 4 weeks, went to town with hand sanding, and then machine polished to complete. That final work if you decide to sand/polish is pretty brutal time wise but it sure is "purdy" when you're done!

    #7 9 years ago
    Quoted from Dono:

    It's true that you don't want a ton of coats on a playfield...I've seen EMs done with 6+ coats and I can tell they're cleared, and somewhat dingy. I prefer one light coat, one heavy coat - top off inserts for leveling... sand them flat (I like to wait 3 weeks or so to give time for the topcoat to fully cure, especially above the inserts) then one heavy coat to complete.

    Actually that's pretty close to what I did, which was something like this:

    1) Thin coat to seal everything
    2) Second thin coat to self-level and see what I'm in for
    3) Sand (400 then 600, aggressive)
    4) Thin coat
    5) Fill insert edges and other spots
    6) Sand
    7) Thin coat
    8) Fill edges & spots
    9) Sand (400 & 600)
    10) Thin coat
    11) Thin coat again - wow, getting close
    12) Sand (400 & 600)
    13) Thick coat for surface tension

    I'd like to think that I did enough sanding between coats, to keep the overall thickness down. I noticed that the thinner coats did not seem to level as well. Hence that final "thick" coat which, really, probably wasn't as thick as most people do (I've seen references to "spilt milk" and mine was not quite that opaque).

    Quoted from Dono:

    That final work if you decide to sand/polish is pretty brutal time wise but it sure is "purdy" when you're done!

    So what IS the process for that final step? The sanding just looks brutal (as it's supposed to) - another coat of clear magically fixes this of course, but I'm not convinced waxing / polishing would do the same...?

    #8 9 years ago

    The enemy of good is better; always remember how much better it already is than when you started.

    I left my Firepower varathane job basically as-sprayed on the final coat. It came out about the same as what your pics show, bit of ripple, decent shine. I was afraid of getting too aggressive with it as I'm not sure how easy it is to burn through a layer of varathane is. Game played and looked 90% better, and I could have easily pushed for that extra 10% but overall it didn't matter.

    That said, if I were to do it again now that I've seen how durable varathane can be (especially a nice thick coat on the top - thinner coats need more care/attention), I would probably hit it with 600, then 1000-1500 grit (on a sanding block or else you won't remove ripples/orange peel) to final level any areas and then follow up with 1-2 progressively milder automotive polishes (not a wax, and definitely not a full-on rubbing compound) on a finishing (not polishing) foam pad probably by hand as opposed to a D/A polisher to keep the heat down. A mild polish (even Novus 2 could work well imo) won't have much in cutting ability, but will easily level swirls and scratches and bring out a wicked shine. The trick is to go slow and use mild products - if you want to use more aggressive products, test them out in the apron area first!

    #9 9 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfidel:

    Also, add a little paint thinner to the Varathane. That will thin out a little and help it to spread smoothly. Varathane can be thick and a little thinner goes a long way.

    Interesting. Had not thought of thinning with paint thinner since it is water base. I have thinned with a little water so that I could shoot it though my air brush (makes a nice little spray gun) with pretty good success. Will have to try the paint thinner.

    #10 9 years ago

    As for polish, I see the Novus line continually recommended. Not to refute that, but it generally seems to be a "plastics" polish though, so how does it compare to Meguiar's Plast-X? I bought some Plast-X for rehabbing turntable covers and the like, and it works quite well.

    So if it's equivalent to Novus that would spare me having another bottle of random this or that...

    Or is there something special about Novus alone that, even though it is a "plastics" polish, makes it unusually suited for clears and urethanes and the like...?

    #11 9 years ago
    Quoted from goingincirclez:

    As for polish, I see the Novus line continually recommended. Not to refute that, but it generally seems to be a "plastics" polish though, so how does it compare to Meguiar's Plast-X? I bought some Plast-X for rehabbing turntable covers and the like, and it works quite well.
    So if it's equivalent to Novus that would spare me having another bottle of random this or that...
    Or is there something special about Novus alone that, even though it is a "plastics" polish, makes it unusually suited for clears and urethanes and the like...?

    Not to my knowledge, Novus just stuck for some reason - possibly it was really good at cleaning mylar way back when, and it was one of the few plastic polishes period (keep in mind back in the 70s and 80s plastic and plastic polish weren't as prevalent.)

    Being a plastic polish it's very mild for clearcoat or lacquer so it's forgiving while still being abrasive enough to remove grime. I wouldn't expect much difference from PlastX, Quixx Acrylic, or any of the other headlight polishing products.

    #12 9 years ago

    just saw this...NEVER add thinner to water based products. In the same manner, never add water to oil based products. They do not mix. I thought you were using the oil based Varathane. If you're using the water based product, go with it as it is. Follow my previous directions, just skip the "thin it out a little" part.

    The ripples you are seeing is caused by the brush bristles. You've come this far. Let's get it really nice. Give it a nice standing and cleaning and hit it with a couple of coats with the lambs wool. Give it the proper time to dry, lightly sand it to rough up the surface for the final coat, clean it thoroughly leaving NO dust on the PF (tack cloth is awesome for that) and hit it again with a final coat to finish. You'll be glad you did.

    I know you're gonna do an awesome job on it and its gonna come out great!

    Good luck.

    #13 9 years ago

    As you have shown you can get decent results with a brush!

    #14 9 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfidel:

    NEVER add thinner to water based products.

    Thanks for clarifying that. Makes total sense to me. I have shot water base Varathane through my airbrush and even thinned slightly with water with pretty good results.

    #15 9 years ago

    I sanded my rattle can varathane BoP and pinbot playfields after the last coat. But it was fine grit sanding followed by polishing and buffing. They look and play great. Both have gone to expo in the last few years and there were many comments on how good they looked.

    #16 9 years ago

    +1 - My Varathane rattle canned King Kool still looks great - it was a dirty, worn POS to start with. All I did was remove everything on the topside (including wood siderails), cleaned it super well, then gave it a few coats - sanding very lightly between. Did zero repair work to worn areas.
    Put it back together with all new posts, pop bumper plastics, & new rubber of course. Never fail to get complements on how nice it looks. I really prefer the patina of wear & you don't really notice it at all under dimmed light playing conditions.

    #17 9 years ago

    You cleared a worn playfield? Got pics? I've been tempted to try this on an EM, lol...

    #18 9 years ago

    Found a couple while I was putting it back together. The wear around the pop bumpers is really bad, but with new clear protectors you can hardly tell when playing it once the GI lights are reflecting off of them.
    Wish I had taken more.... it's up at our cabin now. Had a tourney last Friday night on it that lasted until 4am! IMG_1229 (Small).jpgIMG_1229 (Small).jpgIMG_1220 (Small).jpgIMG_1220 (Small).jpg

    #19 9 years ago

    Okay, at least I know I'm not the only crazy one now lol. I've been tempted to have a game that's protected from further wear but still has that look to it. Crazy part is I think I still want the CABINET repainted. I dunno. I've had a hard time deciding. I've got two Crescendo playfields right now. One is SEVERELY BEATEN, I'm think I may just varathane the crap out of that one for lulz and touch up the other one.

    #20 9 years ago

    Question about the water based Varathane: once finished and dried (weeks/months later), will wiping with alcohol destroy it? Obviously, using Novus shouldn't do any harm, but I believe alcohol products will cloud the Varathane finish. True?

    #21 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Okay, at least I know I'm not the only crazy one now lol. I've been tempted to have a game that's protected from further wear but still has that look to it. Crazy part is I think I still want the CABINET repainted. I dunno. I've had a hard time deciding. I've got two Crescendo playfields right now. One is SEVERELY BEATEN, I'm think I may just varathane the crap out of that one for lulz and touch up the other one.

    I think that a worn clearcoated playfield looks way better than a poorly repaired & clearcoated playfield. If the cabinet is shot, why not redo it? As the whole thing will be painted, you are not matching colors so it will not matter if it's a slightly different color. In fact, I was too lazy to take the time to trace the cabinet detail on my King Kool.... so I made my own design & it looks pretty good!
    Here's the original that had been poorly painted with latex..
    xx 040 (Small).jpgxx 040 (Small).jpg

    & here is after I stripped & re-painted. The colors are close to original, but the design is my own. I tried to make it look period correct. The purple always fades to a tan on these.

    kk 6.30 (2) (Small).JPGkk 6.30 (2) (Small).JPG
    #22 9 years ago
    Quoted from BestShot31:

    Question about the water based Varathane: once finished and dried (weeks/months later), will wiping with alcohol destroy it? Obviously, using Novus shouldn't do any harm, but I believe alcohol products will cloud the Varathane finish. True?

    The alcohol just softens the varathane and it reverts back to a milky color. It goes away when it dries/recures. And it doesn't happen instantly, it takes som buffing and the friction to cloud it.

    #23 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    I've been tempted to have a game that's protected from further wear but still has that look to it.

    Quoted from dasvis:

    I think that a worn clearcoated playfield looks way better than a poorly repaired & clearcoated playfield

    Yay... I was wondering if I was the only one who appreciates a little wear and, what's the magic word, "patina" (?) on things. I've tried to approach my restoration keeping a blend of the old and worn, with the new and never-was. Hopefully I won't cross into "poorly repaired" territory.

    In my case I'm keeping the cabinet paint though. It's actually in really good shape (only needing a few doable touchups here and there) and I like that its fading, which is not bad to begin with, is sublty different on either side. The only problem has been finding a paint that matches.

    So I'm actually going to try something different on the INSIDE PAINT for the cabinet. Ugh, I need to figure out when to stop, soon!

    #24 9 years ago

    As someone who went through a PF swap for a CPR Space Shuttle playfield, I think what you did is fine. There are always going to be the super-anal restorers, and they will never be happy that someone did anything like this or that EM playfield, but sometimes perfect isn't always better. My CPR playfield looked AMAZING....still does in the new owner's house....but you know what? It doesn't play anything like the game did before. It was a bit of a shock. I still wish I hadn't sold it, but I liked it even more before it had that shiny perfect playfield on it.

    #25 9 years ago
    Quoted from goingincirclez:

    Yay... I was wondering if I was the only one who appreciates a little wear and, what's the magic word, "patina" (?) on things. I've tried to approach my restoration keeping a blend of the old and worn, with the new and never-was. Hopefully I won't cross into "poorly repaired" territory.
    In my case I'm keeping the cabinet paint though. It's actually in really good shape (only needing a few doable touchups here and there) and I like that its fading, which is not bad to begin with, is sublty different on either side. The only problem has been finding a paint that matches.
    So I'm actually going to try something different on the INSIDE PAINT for the cabinet. Ugh, I need to figure out when to stop, soon!

    +1 - yes, if the original cabinet paint is salvageable I prefer it. On the inside, you need to be a bit careful as there is that 2" or so that will show on the sides when the playfield is down. On my current High hand project, the coin box area was a total disaster.. must have had 50 gallons of beer spilled in there over the years. Cleaned it out, sanded, shot with primer, & then hit it with a couple of coats of outside base color (krylon antique ivory). Looks presentable now.

    1 week later
    #26 9 years ago
    Quoted from Pinfidel:

    I'm going to bed but logged in just to answer this.
    As a painter, I would suggest you sand it down nice. Get it perfectly smooth. Go to HD or the paint store and by a paint roller pan and what's called a 9" lambs wool. The wool wraps around and gets locked into the block.

    I found Home Depot sells this but it is a roller. Is this what you were referring to?
    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Linzer-9-in-x-3-8-in-Best-Lamb-s-Wool-and-Polyester-Roller-Cover-RC-643/100180934

    It sounded like you meant something else and that you use it like a brush.

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