Unfortunately, you have a lot more to loose than a boutique company that's building these in a garage. I'm someone who installs equipment and understands why it's so important to get a UL approval. People need to understand that Underwriters Laboratory does everything imaginable, destroying it in the process, to insure a safe product is being sent to market. This takes time and is costly. I wondering how these smaller companies are going to ensure that they're products are safe? Would they even be able to get an insurance company to underwrite them? I was on the fence to purchase one of JPops pins. But after reading some of your earlier post on this topic, I decide to NOT buy from any company who doesn't put the customers safety first. Most of these companies can barely get a pin out the door, let alone send several to UL for testing. I applaud you for what you are doing! Keep up the good work. Hopefully this shakes things up and gets these boutique companies in line with what you are doing!

I was wondering the same thing. I know Stern does it and I am happy to see PPS is doing it.

Would love to hear what the other pinball makers are doing.

I'm pretty sure JJP did it on WOZ and will continue to on future games.

Chris Kruger

If I was to ever bring Spaceballs to market with PPS or Stern's help, I would personally insist on the UL testing. I hope everyone is going through the FCC testing as well.

One of my biggest fears in life is to make an engineering mistake that hurts someone.

Any other manufacturers doing this? I'm surprised this isn't getting more attention.

Personally, do I want a pinball that has tons of wires, different voltages, solenoids, in my house with things like family photos, heirlooms, and things that can't be replaced?
I don't think so. I have chosen not to buy pins that don't have all testing done, including boutique. My sister has already gone through a fire in her house because of an electrical failure in a device.
My thoughts...

When Gene shipped BBB they were shipped as used machines

as they didn't comply with CE UL Rohs or anything else

well you don't want to get sued now do you?? That is why testing is good.

I've tried to get this answer on Predator with SkitB and crickets, not sure what it all means but I know JJP went through hell to get it.

The silence, lack of communication in general and no clue on who is even building them is why I backed out. Yet 250 are supposedly getting made soon.

Maybe other vendors are not concerned with what you think - but thank you for your opinion and obvious concern.

Yes these words UL, ROHS, CE are all swear words to other Boutique Manufacturers

well played.

These are machines that are potentially going to heavy commercial usage. There are probably some real liability/insurance issues that are being ignored.

I have a very close friend that has been doing this for the past 5 years or so. They really do destroy things...

Testing is a good thing but is not free.

I'm guessing one does not need to test each title they create, but once per "platform"? So now that MMR is done, the next release will carry the approval, or does each title need to be sent in?

If you are over charging to remake a 20 year old pin in unlimited quantities and have lots to lose then it is probably a good idea.

If you are undercharging for a unique game in limited quantity then it is probably still a good idea but with much less to lose then it is likely a a risk/reward sort of equation.

It is also my understanding that the individual components in the majority of the boutique manufacturers are all appropriately tested so I have little concern over the assembled product and potential personal risk as an owner.

For whom? Someone with a house fire, or the operator who's machine burns a bar down?

Yah, no.

Well there is the problem, the parts are not so much the problem, it is the complete product

How it is wired, what RF it puts out, you wouldn't want it opening your Garage door each time you play a game or have your child touch something and die.

maybe you don't mind taking risks with your Life, I guess you also have no problem with Drink Driving or letting your kids play with matches or lasers pointing at planes to pass the time.

Overcharge last product I had all the tests done it cost 100k, also each game needs to be tested not just one title

Wouldn't the analogy be comparable to someone not getting insurance for something like their home, business or liability? They don't do it because the odds are remote of something happening? Isn't that always the thinking?

So it isn't a problem until it becomes a problem.

You may want to go examine MANY of the electronic components you are using in your house in a daily basis. Also, be sure to NEVER cross over and use different power supplies than the original one that came with each device...

While I think the testing is a good idea I don't think the old machines we put in our houses are as safe as anything being built today. I also don't see multiple threads calling out other manufacturers as a great idea.

You are definitely correct about that. You just have to read some of Vid's bulletproofing guides to see what kind of a fire hazard some System 11 machines can be.

But, if advanced testing exists today, why not take advantage of that? I've seen more than one insurance policy that won't pay out if the at-fault device is not UL listed.

I can only assume that a few too many have cancelled on MMR and he thinks bashing others is the way to more customers?

Yes, I think that ALL of the botique manufactures are doing everything they possibly can to make a safe product but some things may be insurmountable given their budget and scale of production (side note: especially when they are actually investing and building a unique product for a fair price).

I believe that they want their products to be as safe as possible and will meet all required testing, but it really does not make sense for them to do the optional testings which cost more time and money. Many are using P-Roc and off the shelf components which are proven to be quite safe.

In your case, you have much more to potentially lose and are using a completely new board system so a much greater precieved risk of untested hardware. Probably VERY little risk for anyone assuming they are properly stress tested, but still for your business model I would suggest getting ALL of the testing and certifications you possibly can, especially after starting yet another thread on pinside where your obvious desire is to try and call out other manufacturers.

Glad to hear you are doing really well and I don't want ANY pinball business to fail. I just choose to support ones which make new and unique products when I can, rather than ones rehashing games fro top end market and continually trying to bash the competition. Just MAKE your damn product and let it speak for itself! I am not sure why so many in the pinball business seem to miss this important point in business 101.

Come on Hilton! It's typical Pinside, people always want something for nothing and the risk of actually receiving Predator is a whole lot more than MMr and Stern is actually building them! Who is building Predator?

When your house burns down maybe you'll say "I got what I paid for"? Haha I don't think its a huge risk myself either but then again, it only takes one incident, and after what SkitB followed up with I doubt Rick or anybody else is concerned about somebody trying to make pins at a loss.

At the end of the day, you usually "get what you pay for".....gl

I'd actually be surprised if PPS's liability insurance didn't, in the fine print, require UL certification. Insuring a business that produces an electronics item - the insurance company usually requires UL certification for obvious reasons.

I'm surprised Jack didn't chime in here. I seem to remember that was a big cost and caused a production delay for WOZ. I'm glad Jack did it and also glad my MMr will have it too.

I think Jack had to give UL two games that they could more or less trash them to test them. Not sure he got them back after testing even. They had to be exactly like the ones he is selling in as much as cabinet and pf had to be exactly like models for sale. Couldn't do a game with no cabinet decals, or anything less than an exact model.

Hilton... I think maybe you and I have had a run in the past Your comments on this thread are not showing you in a good light. Maybe you should take Rick's advise and stop before you look even more foolish.

Chris Kruger

I wonder if the UL or other testing would catch the most dangerous thing I've seen on my machines. Namely, solenoid drive transistors shorting out and sometimes burning up. It's one thing to test a working machine but how do you test for all the possible failure modes?

had this happen on my AFM, I feel lucky I was there when parts started to melt.

I for one feel very uncomfortable putting a game under the same roof as my family without knowing that it has gone through all required and recommended testing. Boutique companies should figure this into their cost.

We did the testing for woz here near Boston Rick. Place is located 30 Mounties from us...

Honestly, if I think hard about it, I don't know how safe I feel regardless of the testing done. I think the safest thing to do is to be present while the machines are turned on and turn them off when you are finished using them.

Or better yet, unplug the thing if you really want to be certain.

Lol minutes...

I remember my parents always making sure the toaster and other countertop appliances were unplugged before going to bed.

I suppose they should have checked the TV too but I guess that was too much trouble. Risk versus annoyance.

I turn off all my power strips when not playing. Part of buying new is that all new standards are met for me. Thank you for Rick.

I'm glad he did. I have never given any certification any thought before it was brought up the first time. Believe me, it's something I'll insist on from any new pinball machine before I buy it.

Just 'spend' your damn 'money' and let it speak for itself! There's over 1,000 of us who do support MMr.

We did it and we are also Certified through SAA to ship games (which more are going soon wise guy) to Australia - We understand that NOBODY ELSE is registered with SAA to ship games to Australia - our Certificate # is SAA130432

I usually only have my games on when present but if I'm away and guest are over it could happen as well. I am surprised to hear that all pin manufacturers are not doing these precautionary tests.

That's got to be one of the more fun yet heartbreaking gigs around.

I would not be surprised if some of the boutique guys weren't doing the official testing due to the cost. If they aren't doing the official testing it would be good to know what they are testing.

I'm not as concerned about the machine causing my house to burn down since someone is present when the machines are on (and as I mentioned above, I don't know if the official testing is guaranteed to catch all the potential problems anyway).

I would be more concerned that the machines are tested for proper grounding.

For the companies that are getting the certified testing, isn't the official testing only looking at a couple of machines? What if something gets miswired in production? I would hope they also have tests in place to catch the kinds of defects that could cause real harm.

I'm hoping the fact that it's happening at Stern, and their experience with such things, will help it happen in a timely manner.