(Topic ID: 104872)

FAST RGB LEDs Now Available

By fastpinball

9 years ago


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    #1 9 years ago

    We are very excited to announce that our FAST RGB LEDs in the playfield insert form factor are now available in our online store at fastpinball.com

    fast_rgb_led_insert.jpgfast_rgb_led_insert.jpg

    We test each LED before we ship to make sure it is good working order before they leave our hands. I whipped up a quick video of a RGB LED running a color cycle test and posted it on our YouTube channel. Here is a link:

    Our goal with this form factor was to eliminate the need for a separate mounting bracket and save pinball builders a little $ in the process. We have refined the form factor over the last year and a half and our test users give this one the big thumbs up! A single screw is all that is required to mount them to your playfield. We are using the WS2812 RGB LED on our boards which provides you the greatest flexibility in how you choose to control them. Our FAST Pinball Controller hardware has the RGB LED control built in directly, but they can just as easily be controlled by an Arduino or many other solutions.

    fast_hardware.jpgfast_hardware.jpg

    Enough rambling! Thank you for taking a moment to check out the FAST RGB LEDs and we look forward to updating you with more hardware in the coming days!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #2 9 years ago

    A buck a piece? Sick, in a good way. Doing a full playfield inserts LED with native RGB control on a custom project at that price is....dang. I wish I wasn't completely programming ignorant.

    #4 9 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    A buck a piece? Sick, in a good way. Doing a full playfield inserts LED with native RGB control on a custom project at that price is....dang. I wish I wasn't completely programming ignorant.

    They are a really great way to get into programming. Bright color feedback!

    PM me if you like and let me know what you are trying to accomplish and I may be able to point you in the right direction.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #5 9 years ago

    The FastLED library (no relation to FAST pinball that I know of) is a great place to start working w\ this type of LED. I've used it on some Arduino projects and it makes life a lot easier.

    #6 9 years ago

    The board looks like it has two 5v and ground connections.
    The video shows 4 wires, with 1 or more going into the middle unmarked part...

    How are these being connected?

    #7 9 years ago
    Quoted from pinlynx:

    The FastLED library (no relation to FAST pinball that I know of) is a great place to start working w\ this type of LED. I've used it on some Arduino projects and it makes life a lot easier.

    There is no relation, but the library is awesome!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #8 9 years ago
    Quoted from boogies:

    The board looks like it has two 5v and ground connections.
    The video shows 4 wires, with 1 or more going into the middle unmarked part...
    How are these being connected?

    There are designed to connect in series. 5v, data, ground IN, 5v, data, ground OUT. In the video I am only connecting a single RGB LED so you only see the 5v, data, ground IN.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #9 9 years ago

    The first batch of FAST RGB LEDs ordered yesterday have been shipped! I can't wait to see what people make with them!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #11 9 years ago

    Can you go through any of the tech you've included to help these LEDs survive in a noisy environment? Do you have a power source recommendation to reduce the transient spikes that blasted a lot of the WoZ LEDs?

    Not trying to cast any negativity, because I think it's awesome what you guys are doing, I just want to know that you've thought about stuff like that.

    #12 9 years ago

    Why is the 'noisy environment' killing WOZ leds (or these)? I'm not up on all the technical stuff. Normal LEDs in sockets seem to survive just fine, is there something wonky about the nature of the serial hookup that causes them to over-volt or otherwise get too much current in an interference situation?

    #13 9 years ago

    Its actually two separate things I'm asking about. I'm driving but I'll post a longer explanation when I get home arOund 8:45 eastern.

    #14 9 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    Can you go through any of the tech you've included to help these LEDs survive in a noisy environment? Do you have a power source recommendation to reduce the transient spikes that blasted a lot of the WoZ LEDs?
    Not trying to cast any negativity, because I think it's awesome what you guys are doing, I just want to know that you've thought about stuff like that.

    Noisy environment is the result of how you have everything hooked up. I can only speak for the scenario when we are driving the RGB LEDs via our FAST Controller. In that case, the PC or Beaglebone Black is provided a direct line of communication to the a processor who's sole responsibility is to make sure the RGB LED commands are interpreted correctly and then writes out those commands to a 2nd processor who's sole responsibility is to send those lighting commands to the RGB LEDs in the manner required per the WS2812 specs.

    Our controller is fed a dedicated 5v line used solely for powering the RGB LEDs. This allows the game builder to provide a 5v supply with specs required for the number of RGB LEDs they use. We designed the FAST RGB LED PCBs to meet the manufacturer's guidance for optimal performance. The WS2818 leds are rated for 50,000 hours. The size of the PCB is also a careful consideration. While they could have been smaller, they would not have be useful to mount to the playfield. Much larger and you were just adding costly PCB area. The small mass/footprint and the flush to playfield mounting provides a solid mounting to endure game play vibrations.

    In our understanding of the issues faced in WoZ, a system design which mixed grounds may be what caused issues that some have witnessed. We designed our RGB LED solution (again, from the perspective of our FAST Controller on down to the RGB LEDs themselves) using all the information available and the best parts available to us. Our FAST Controller also breaks the RGB LED lines into 4, 64 RGB LED channels. While the WS2812 does not enforce a limit on the number of RGB LEDs you can run in series, we found that in the pinball use case this number was adequate for game use and also provided a better way for use to protect those lines without over engineering for edge case scenarios.

    We factored in all that we could when choosing to develop an RGB LED solution. Situations within pinball and in other industries. As with all our hardware, it is aimed towards a commercial release so we intend to provide best practice guidance for greatest success.

    Great questions! Please ask away. It is helpful for us to know the questions had by the community so we can best answer them in advance through our own documentation. Especially since, for a lot of people, playing with the RGB LEDs is a new thing. But I warn you... you will soon become obsessed with them and look at things in everyday life and wonder how much better they would be with RGB LEDs added to them!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #15 9 years ago

    Thanks for the info! I owe a further explanation of my questions, so I've separated them out per my response to Frax. I don't want the business-y answers either. Gimme the tech.

    1. A 0-5V bus like SPI is really only designed to work between items on the same PCB. Extending the bus to 25-50 feet required for the wiring in a pinball machine will have it's own set of issues, not even counting the noise introduced by other stuff. If the 2nd processor you describe is a buffer or bus driver, that would help for sure. Not saying it won't work out of the box, because it probably works amazing on a workbench, but without some kind of driver intended to extend the bus, I would just be wary of future problems. The isolated ground certainly helps, and it sounds like you've thought about some of that.

    2. This is the question related to what happened with WoZ LEDs. Disclaimer first though, I don't work for JJP and have never talked to a JJP engineer. This is my own conjecture. To answer your questions about why regular LEDs don't fail Frax, the LEDs themselves didn't fail in the WoZ setup, the controller chip in them did. When you put a large number of them in a chain, rapidly switching the color LEDs on and off, you end up with these nasty little transient swings. In our head, we typically assume that a 5V supply just keeps humming along at 5V as long as we stay under the current limit for it. In reality, that's not the case. It looks like FAST have at least put a bypass cap on the RGB boards to try and help keep the signal/power clean. It also has a lot to do with the power supply you choose, cheaper supplies can overdrive the output when a current draw appears and disappears rapidly.

    Again, I think what FAST is doing is very cool, and support them. This was my way of trying to help out and say "have you thought of this?". It probably comes across the internet as me being a jerk, but I promise that's not where this is coming from. If my life ever slowed down a bit, I'd actually love to be a contributor to the different pinball code projects going on, I have a lot to offer in that area, just not a lot of time.

    #16 9 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    It probably comes across the internet as me being a jerk, but I promise that's not where this is coming from.

    Not a jerk at all! My art school background has conditioned me to see questions about design decisions and critiques of work as attempt to improve and not tear down, by default. Pinside is especially harsh and some commenters just seem out to "get us." But I sincerely give all comments the benefit of the doubt.

    Your questions are well phrased to show "this is what I know and understand, my question comes from here..." this even helps to know how to answer them best.

    I think your points sum things up well!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #17 9 years ago

    The wiring for these LEDs typically won't be anywhere near 25-50 feet. It's not like a typical pinball lighting wiring where it's a big matrix will tons of wire connecting everywhere. It's more like 5-10 feet total and that's only if you put all your LEDs in one chain. If you use separate chains then you can keep each run under 5 feet. Also, each wire run is usually only a few inches up to maybe a foot between each LED board. The 0 to 5v at 800khz (the single wire serial used on the WS2812) should be fine for that kind of lengths assuming you use decent wiring.

    One thing that is certainly an issue with the WS2812 LED chips is that you should not set their colors to full on for any length of time. In fact, going above 80% of full should only be used in a flasher type situation. They get really hot otherwise, and that will shorten their life, sometimes dramatically. This shouldn't be an issue, because they are blindingly bright even at 50% of full.

    #18 9 years ago

    what happens if one of this LED is broken?

    will the other leds after this broken led are still working ?

    #19 9 years ago
    Quoted from kapsreiter:

    what happens if one of this LED is broken?
    will the other leds after this broken led are still working ?

    With this type of RGB LED, the RGB LEDs downline from a broken LED will go out. In my experience so far, the only time I have knocked out an LED was in the portable pinball machine that folds up and I ripped out a data line when folding it up really quick. But that was solved by giving the replacing wire a little more slack. But that is certainly an extreme case.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fast-portable-pinball

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #20 9 years ago

    cool product, ashame I don't know how to programme

    sent a pm about an idea

    #21 9 years ago
    Quoted from reltham:

    The wiring for these LEDs typically won't be anywhere near 25-50 feet. It's not like a typical pinball lighting wiring where it's a big matrix will tons of wire connecting everywhere. It's more like 5-10 feet total and that's only if you put all your LEDs in one chain. If you use separate chains then you can keep each run under 5 feet. Also, each wire run is usually only a few inches up to maybe a foot between each LED board.

    I think you are underestimating it.

    It's 5 feet of wire to go from just the backbox to the playfield. Let's do some math, if you use 32 RGB LEDs (half of their supported chain) and have just 6 inches between them on average, you still end up with (31 * 0.5) + 5.0 = 20.5 feet of wire. The controller chip does act as a buffer/transmitter though, so it helps tremendously. Still something to consider when you guys implement the FAST controller system. Be wary of the way you wire things, and consider at a minimum closing the power loop by connecting both ends of the chain to your power rails.

    #22 9 years ago

    Thanks guys. Some of this is over my head (very slightly) but I'm always interested in learning new stuff.

    #23 9 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    6 inches between them on average

    The average in my uses has been about 3" accounting for most side by side RGB LEDs are about 2" and a jump from one cluster to another being about 6".

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #24 9 years ago

    If you daisy chain them, wouldn't it really only be the distance from the MCU to the first board, which would be the lognest, be the one that counts the most? The signal shouldn't degrade from chip to chip because they are close together as each chip would re-output at 5v logic levels rather than just passing the degraded signal straight through I would think, but dont know for sure...

    The ws2812 datasheet says you can do up to 5m / 200inch between two WS2812s before the signal will drop.

    #25 9 years ago

    Here is a quick pick of the previous generation RGB LEDs in the portable pin. Most of the wires were barely 2" between most. Others a little longer.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    image.jpgimage.jpg
    #26 9 years ago

    What is this for? New projects? This isn't meant to be a replacement for machines such as WPCs is it?

    #27 9 years ago
    Quoted from Atomicboy:

    What is this for? New projects? This isn't meant to be a replacement for machines such as WPCs is it?

    New games/projects. Not a drop in replacement for existing games... yet.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #28 9 years ago

    Next step is that we need a controller to hook into the logic of the existing games, and then we run playfields with all clear inserts ...

    #29 9 years ago

    Ohhhh this is super neat! Congrats on this product guys, so cool!

    #30 9 years ago
    Quoted from PPS:

    Next step is that we need a controller to hook into the logic of the existing games, and then we run playfields with all clear inserts ...

    I'll call you this afternoon.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #31 9 years ago

    awesome!
    xIMG_20141004_175120.jpgxIMG_20141004_175120.jpg

    #32 9 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    awesome!

    xIMG_20141004_175120.jpg 109 KB

    Rad! Thank you for your business! Can't wait to see what you make!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #33 9 years ago

    We have been so busy getting ready for Pinball Expo I have not added more details on the FAST RGB LEDs. Many have asked about connector options and I am putting together some suggestions. In the meantime, here is a shot of the backside of the FAST RGB LEDs to show the large pads which provide an easy way to solder wire directly to the PCB if you like.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    image.jpgimage.jpg
    3 weeks later
    #34 9 years ago

    Had some time to play around with them today. The spec sheet is very... generous in its timing requirements and voltage.

    So I started with a 3.3v PIC32 outputting to a 74HC245 to scale the logic to 5v, out to the FastRGB led unit.. after some timing tweaking, we had it colour cycling just fine, it was drawing (along with the microcontroller + 74hc245) a paltry 0.07A at full brightness.

    I did some experiments, feeding it directly with 3.3v logic and that worked too, but I feel more comfortable feeding it via the 74HC245.

    The WorldSemi one wire protocol with no clock is some crazy ass vodoo bullshit thats for sure.

    Ive heard WS2812's can get hot, but Ive had this thing pulsing for a few hours and its still cold to touch, which is nice.

    #35 9 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    Had some time to play around with them today. The spec sheet is very... generous in its timing requirements and voltage.
    So I started with a 3.3v PIC32 outputting to a 74HC245 to scale the logic to 5v, out to the FastRGB led unit.. after some timing tweaking, we had it colour cycling just fine, it was drawing (along with the microcontroller + 74hc245) a paltry 0.07A at full brightness.
    I did some experiments, feeding it directly with 3.3v logic and that worked too, but I feel more comfortable feeding it via the 74HC245.
    The WorldSemi one wire protocol with no clock is some crazy ass vodoo bullshit thats for sure.
    Ive heard WS2812's can get hot, but Ive had this thing pulsing for a few hours and its still cold to touch, which is nice.

    Thanks for the update! Great to hear about your progress. We got to put together the first of the stand alone FAST RGB LED Controllers this weekend. I will post an image here shortly. In the meantime, check this out: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fast-pinball

    Keep us up on your progress. Thanks for taking the time to let us know!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #36 9 years ago

    Here is a shot of the FAST RGB LED Controller which will be available soon. Controls 256 RGB LEDs in 4 channels. Connect over USB or serial from another hardware solution. Dedicated power supply so you can choose the amperage of your 5v supply that matches the needs for your LEDs.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    image.jpgimage.jpg
    #37 9 years ago

    Neat. Any hints on price? How about a discount a bundle with the introductory 32 LED board bundle?

    I'm thinking my Arduino controlled Brunswick Aspen would look pretty hilarious with RGB LEDs and the PD-LED is overkill for a machine that cost me less than $75.

    Also release a driver board for System11 that doesn't have the MPU built in. I'll gladly buy things where there's no turf war

    #38 9 years ago
    Quoted from Mocean:

    Neat. Any hints on price? How about a discount a bundle with the introductory 32 LED board bundle?
    I'm thinking my Arduino controlled Brunswick Aspen would look pretty hilarious with RGB LEDs and the PD-LED is overkill for a machine that cost me less than $75.
    Also release a driver board for System11 that doesn't have the MPU built in. I'll gladly buy things where there's no turf war

    Let's hint at our goal being under $30. We are hoping that the common parts with our other hardware makes that possible.

    At this point we have only to putting it through some additional testing and its on the streets.

    I like the idea of a bundle too. I'll look at something cool for that.

    System 11 Interface is one of the top requests. Cant wait to get that one to the masses. But first things first.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    2 weeks later
    #39 9 years ago

    I woke up this morning to another update on the use of the FAST RGB LEDs a pinball project. Check it out for yourselves! Thanks for sharing Mark!

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/f14-tomcat-second-sortie-information-and-on-going-development/page/4#post-2060852

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    1 week later
    #41 9 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    I woke up this morning to another update on the use of the FAST RGB LEDs a pinball project. Check it out for yourselves! Thanks for sharing Mark!
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/f14-tomcat-second-sortie-information-and-on-going-development/page/4#post-2060852
    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    That is a VERY cool project!

    #42 9 years ago
    Quoted from prock:

    That is a VERY cool project!

    For sure! I think it is awesome that Mark is taking the time to document the process in photos and share them. Love it!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

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