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FAST Pinball


By fastpinball

3 years ago


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    There are 327 posts in topic. You are on page 1 of 7.
    #1 3 years ago

    It was suggested that we should start a FAST Pinball thread to digest the the details about what we are up to that has been sprinkled around pinside.com and beyond. So here it is!

    In the coming days we will be posting details to our website and I will do my best to link to the updates here as well. If anyone has any questions, please ask!

    I am getting the workshop setup to begin making videos in the coming days showing just what it takes to do different things with the FAST Pinball hardware.

    Thanks again to everyone who has lent their support in many different ways and to everyone who has spent time with us at the NW Pinball Show, Pinball Expo in Chicago, Texas Pinball Festival and CAX. Please introduce/reintroduce yourself so we can associate a name/face with a pinside.com screenname.

    Thanks!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #2 3 years ago

    Awesome! Can't wait to hear details. I'm very curious about the "WPC 2.0" capabilities, features, goals, etc.

    #3 3 years ago

    Can't wait!

    #4 3 years ago

    Looking forward to hearing more about it!

    #5 3 years ago

    I was the big guy at CAX who was talking about wanting to write new rules for No Fear. I just found a No Fear to play with, and I will be picking it up within a couple of weeks. I can't wait to start working with this! I will be spending the time before release trying to figure out exactly what No Fear does now, so I can get a better idea of what I want to add.

    #6 3 years ago

    Looking forward to more info! I'm curious about what games are on the shortlist after Totan/CV and Funhouse. Personally I would really, really love to have non-time-based rules for Safecracker, for example.

    3 weeks later
    #7 3 years ago

    Any Updates? I still do not see any significant information updates on the fast pinball website. Is this still happening?

    #8 3 years ago
    Quoted from jazzmaster:

    Any Updates? I still do not see any significant information updates on the fast pinball website. Is this still happening?

    Yep! We have been busy prepping for the Pinball Expo in October and getting the new hardware produced. More updates next week!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #9 3 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    Yep! We have been busy prepping for the Pinball Expo in October and getting the new hardware produced. More updates next week!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    Any news on the JPOP 2.0 games?

    #10 3 years ago
    Quoted from jazzmaster:

    Any news on the JPOP 2.0 games?

    Nothing to report just yet!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    1 month later
    #11 3 years ago

    We have been terrible about posting updates on all the rad stuff that has been going on, but that should change here shortly!

    Here is a big one! We have been working with Brian and Gabe from Mission Pinball for a while now to provide them the resources needed to get their new framework ready for the FAST Pinball Platform. Today the Mission Pinball Framework (MPF) just released rev. 0.0.8 and our hardware is now supported! I cannot wait until our hardware is in the hands of more game builders! For those of you currently in possession of pre-release hardware, we will be in touch with you directly on what is needed to dive in with the MPF!

    Read More about it here: http://blog.fastpinball.com/mission-pinball-framework-supports-fast-pinball-platform/

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #12 3 years ago

    Thanks for the update...keep 'em coming.

    #13 3 years ago

    Will there be an update to TOTAN on the hardware and sofeware side?

    #14 3 years ago

    Can the FAST board be connected to a system 11 playfield?

    #15 3 years ago

    Thanks for the update!

    Very interesting to see how much of the code was copied from the P-ROC hardware control code in pyprocgame (the fork feature in GitHub is probably easier and just stripping out what you don't need).

    https://github.com/missionpinball/mpf/blob/dev/mpf/platform/fast.py#L219
    https://github.com/missionpinball/mpf/blob/dev/mpf/platform/fast.py#L222
    https://github.com/missionpinball/mpf/blob/dev/mpf/platform/fast.py#L271
    https://github.com/missionpinball/mpf/blob/dev/mpf/platform/fast.py#L273
    https://github.com/missionpinball/mpf/blob/dev/mpf/platform/fast.py#L275

    to name a few But at least you gave credit in the footers, but you may want to change your high level theoretical operating "comments" in the code to reflect how YOUR product works rather than its parent platform, from which this is derived. I say this in all niceness as it could help alleviate any confusion for customers that may be reading through code.

    Props on choosing the MIT license! That gives people maximum freedoms to adopt the platform.

    Best of luck!

    #16 3 years ago

    Hang on, in earlier threads, the FAST guys were indicating that their system was not a P-ROC clone. If they're using open source P-ROC hardware control code, wouldn't that indicate otherwise?

    #17 3 years ago

    I'm sorry, but I can't help but laugh after reading one of the previous FAST threads where there was so much talk about how it was so different than the PROC systems, and now the only framework that currently works with the FAST system is derived from the PROC framework.

    But I guess I'm easily amused.

    #18 3 years ago

    In their defense, there's only so much variation in the protocol to communicate with pinball hardware. The references to P-ROC are in the MPF code, not FAST.

    #19 3 years ago

    The links to the modules and combined PDF do not appear to be working.

    https://missionpinball.com/docs/

    #20 3 years ago
    Quoted from pinlynx:

    Hang on, in earlier threads, the FAST guys were indicating that their system was not a P-ROC clone. If they're using open source P-ROC hardware control code, wouldn't that indicate otherwise?

    Opening an interesting can of worms...

    #21 3 years ago
    Quoted from jlm33:

    Opening an interesting can of worms...

    I like worms...

    #22 3 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    The references to P-ROC are in the MPF code, not FAST.

    Quoted from jlm33:

    Opening an interesting can of worms...

    Quoted from pinlynx:

    I like worms...

    There is one of you three that can read. I'll let you figure it out.

    #23 3 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    In their defense, there's only so much variation in the protocol to communicate with pinball hardware.

    Not totally disagreeing, but there have been (and presently are) many variants on software and framework from multiple manufacturers at any given time in the industry. It is curious to me to see FAST seemingly (at a glance at this point at least) relying on MPF framework, based on P-ROC groundwork, to bring their "user-friendliness" to market.

    While I do like open source and the idea of custom machines, I admit it ruffles my feathers a bit to see P-ROC framework and Gerry's legacy being recycled and ultimately in some cases used against the very product that spawned the possibilities in the first place. Very "MakerBot esque" I would say for anyone looking into the history of consumer 3D printing.

    From the hobbyist perspective I don't think it matters much since the market is admittedly limited, but commercially for example, stuff like this this Funhouse 2.0 (being developed by Skit-B last I heard) and future FAST/PPS relationships are now potentially piggybacking off of Gerry's "free" code and development efforts, on hardware that earns Gerry not a dime. I don't know if anything illegal would be transpiring, but if Gerry's effort and time in the hobby over the last years is being essentially used and abused to reap profits for companies who were supposedly working on "another way" to tackle new/custom machines, I find that to be poor form.

    I know that Gerry has approached manufacturers and license holders in efforts to get his hardware into commercial situations and has been repeatedly turned down (note I do not know the 'why', just that it has happened). Now to see that someone else's "completely different" hardware theoretically running portions of P-ROC code in commercial applications (Skit-B/PPS Funhouse 2.0 being the blatant one), I have to say, it kinda looks greasy. Now, that all being said if FAST have their own from-scratch framework they developed and all of the FAST-endorsed projects are running on said platform there's no problem in my eye; MPF continues on as the "hobbyist" framework, and FAST and P-ROC can have their own specific platforms too. So far it does seem like FAST and MPF are somewhat hand-in-hand tho.

    In all, I've met the FAST guys and the P-ROC guys and they are all wonderful people. I just hope everyones conscience is clear in all of this and no one is compromising their integrity by rushing out to milk this little pinball boom for all it is worth.

    Too long, didn't read: I hope credit is being given where it is due.

    #24 3 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    There is one of you three that can read. I'll let you figure it out.

    Unfortunately since the MPF appears to be the only framework that currently supports Fast, it does look "greasy" as Purpledrilmonkey put it.

    At the very least the MPF team has pre-release FAST hardware so there is some collaboration between the MPF group and the fast guys. If the MPF was something that was offered in addition to a FAST provided framework then all is cool, but this at least is giving the impressions of MPF being the official framework for FAST.

    From a legal standpoint it's very clear that the pyprocgame license allows this. It's the moral standpoint after the FAST guys aggressively trying to combat the comparison to PROC that is rubbing me, and apparently others, wrong.

    #25 3 years ago
    Quoted from pkiefert:

    Unfortunately since the MPF appears to be the only framework that currently supports Fast, it does look "greasy" as Purpledrilmonkey put it.

    Precisely. Now I will admit, I haven't done a ton of research (info is limited on FAST actually anyway) but if they have their own framework that isn't tearing pieces of pyprocgame out and reusing them, I no longer have a care in the world about how this plays out. As it stands, it sure seems like collaboration with MPF is required for FAST to be viable now and in the future.

    It's the moral standpoint after the FAST guys aggressively trying to combat the comparison to PROC that is rubbing me, and apparently others, wrong.

    Yeah the battle to not be a competitor to P-ROC is kinda pointless imo. FAST is a competitor, end of story. Competitors exist everywhere and that and that alone doesn't make anyone a villain.

    #26 3 years ago

    This was news to me. Thanks for sharing the history.

    #27 3 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    There is one of you three that can read. I'll let you figure it out.

    Well, I decided someone had to do some research. It seems as of mid July '14 it does seem like FAST is backing the MPF as their platform.

    a quote from a FAST pinball:

    Everyone felt the move was the right move to abandon the effort to produce our own Python framework and instead lend our support to the MPF. We all agreed that a universal platform was ideal and letting hardware vendors focus on hardware and provide the best resources to frameworks like the MPF is the right approach.

    I won't link directly to this quote or put up the whole post as there are numerous peoples names and things discussed that are not for me to post here on pinside, nor are they germane to this specific point. You can search this discussion out yourself if you are truly curious.

    /wormsopen

    #28 3 years ago
    Quoted from pkiefert:

    Unfortunately since the MPF appears to be the only framework that currently supports Fast, it does look "greasy" as Purpledrilmonkey put it.

    Okay, I can't really disagree with that, but are we operating on the assumption this will be the ONLY framework...period? I wouldn't.. at least I would hope not.

    #29 3 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Okay, I can't really disagree with that, but are we operating on the assumption this will be the ONLY framework...period? I wouldn't.. at least I would hope not.

    See my post above. It reads that way to me.

    #30 3 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    See my post above. It reads that way to me.

    I read it the same way. But... my reading comprehension has already been called into question.

    #31 3 years ago

    I'm loving this video.. Seeing insert light matrix on a tablet real time, then in real time controlling the lighting manually from the tablet
    » YouTube video

    #32 3 years ago

    I find it more than a little strange... that a company hopes to win market share by stealing work from another company... and hopes to license to the same customers which might have been won by the company they stole from.

    Unless FAST comes up with a new framework; or can prove to us that their code/ideas/platforms ARE NOT a direct rip-off of PROC; my dollars are staying in my bank account. I won't support one company stealing from another. It's my hope that any Boutique manufacturers will head that warning. IF you chose FAST over PROC - expect no orders from me.

    #33 3 years ago

    Brian originally coded that for pyprocgame, and it works there too.

    » YouTube video

    I (and others) use it for testing. It's wildly helpful when you can't make a shot or, in the case of testing against Visual pinball tables, can't take off the glass for some reason.

    There's a thread on pinballcontrollers about it, here:
    http://www.pinballcontrollers.com/forum/index.php?topic=983.0

    Quoted from toyotaboy:

    I'm loving this video.. Seeing insert light matrix on a tablet real time, then in real time controlling the lighting manually from the tablet
    » YouTube video

    #34 3 years ago

    Hi. I'm Brian Madden, the creator (along with Gabe Knuth) of the Mission Pinball Framework. It's exciting to see everything we've been working on getting some attention!

    I can tell you 100% that not a single line of the FAST platform interface code was taken from pyprocgame. I wrote our P-ROC interface first (in June), and then when I got a FAST hardware controller about two weeks ago, I used our P-ROC platform interface as a template for the FAST interface. That's why those references to P-ROC are in there. That code was stolen by me from me, not from pyprocgame. If anyone who's familiar with the inner workings of pyprocgame looks at MPF, you'll see that they are two unique things.

    I'll also let you know that no money changed hands between FAST and us in either direction. They did mail me a FAST controller a few weeks ago for free. But that's it. I met the FAST guys in Seattle earlier this year and talked to them at the NW show and explained what we were doing, and they have been very supportive.

    As for their effort to not make their own Python-based framework, that was their decision. Basically I showed them what we were doing with MPF and told them that we wanted to make it work with FAST, and they essentially said, "great, so now we don't have to make our own Python framework, and the industry will be better off with a platform-independent framework." So they've absolutely been supportive in that regard. I don't know what their plans are around other frameworks, but we're excited to add FAST support to ours.

    That said, I've been using a P-ROC for a few years, and Gerry Stellenberg as *also* been very supportive of what we're doing in the framework. In fact we have a Mission Pinball Framework subforum on Gerry's pinballcontrollers.com website, and we'll have our Big Shot EM-to-SS conversion running the Mission Pinball Framework on P-ROC hardware in Gerry's booth at the Expo.

    So big error on my part not to clean up the comments for our FAST interface, but to be clear when you run our framework with FAST hardware, there is not one single line of code from pyprocgame there. (We do use libpinproc and pypinproc of course since those are the drivers for P-ROC.)

    Also if you look at our P-ROC platform interface module (https://github.com/missionpinball/mpf/blob/dev/mpf/platform/p_roc.py), you'll see that we pulled some code for the hardware configuration of the P-ROC from pyprocgame, but that's fully credited in the comments, and pyprocgame is available via the MIT license, and since it's in our module for the P-ROC we're fine with it since it's needed to talk to a P-ROC.

    Finally, as for FAST's plans for WPC2.0 and all that, at this point I don't know what their plans are, but I can tell you I would love it if some of these games were written with our framework! I know that they have some things to work out around licensing and DRM, and I hope that we can make MPF work with whatever they do so people can use MPF to write and sell officially-licensed games. (MPF itself is released under the MIT license, so anyone can do whatever they want with it.)

    Oh, also I hope that P-ROC and FAST are just the tip of the iceberg for us. I talked to Ben Heck and the NW show too, and if he ever sells the PinHeck boards then I would assume we could support that too. (Even though it has its own PIC32 microprocessor, if we could get a firmware rev for it that talked USB then we should be able to add it to MPF. Same for Visual Pinball and hopefully whatever JJP has in WOZ.

    -1
    #35 3 years ago

    Thanks for clearing your end up Brian. The info you've presented is kinda how I ASSUMED things were running but it's nice to hear it from a man in charge. I'll be the first one to say that I don't personally think there's anything wrong with how MPF came about or what I believe its intent is.

    Quoted from BrianMadden:

    That code was stolen by me from me, not from pyprocgame. If anyone who's familiar with the inner workings of pyprocgame looks at MPF, you'll see that they are two unique things.

    I know you've been a driving force behind PROC and pyprocgame, and countless other endeavours. You using PROC concepts and ideas for MPF not only makes sense, it's inevitable due to your influence on where the PROC has come to. Stealing isn't the correct terminology with regards to MPF itself, evolution is more appropriate imo.

    Quoted from BrianMadden:

    As for their effort to not make their own Python-based framework, that was their decision. Basically I showed them what we were doing with MPF and told them that we wanted to make it work with FAST, and they essentially said, "great, so now we don't have to make our own Python framework, and the industry will be better off with a platform-independent framework."

    This, to me, is the issue at heart. It sure seems on the surface like you're doing the legwork for FAST, whether it's intentional or not on the part of MPF. Since what you and Gerry (and others) have done up until this point was graciously open sourced to us all I guess there's nothing stopping such behaviour, but it obviously does bug some of us.

    Quoted from BrianMadden:

    So big error on my part not to clean up the comments for our FAST interface, but to be clear when you run our framework with FAST hardware, there is not one single line of code from pyprocgame there. (We do use libpinproc and pypinproc of course since those are the drivers for P-ROC.)

    I don't think it's your error, I was fairly clear on your goals and mission. Ultimately I think it is, and has been, FAST on the hook for explaining exactly why they exist and what they have come up with that improves on PROC technology. Again I reiterate, FAST are nice guys and I'm not trying to sling mud, but there is a bit of sticky ethics (from my point of view) if the FAST boards are simply banking on the software and framework of Gerry, yourself Brian, and the community at large to make them viable.

    Quoted from BrianMadden:

    That said, I've been using a P-ROC for a few years, and Gerry Stellenberg as *also* been very supportive of what we're doing in the framework. In fact we have a Mission Pinball Framework subforum on Gerry's pinballcontrollers.com website, and we'll have our Big Shot EM-to-SS conversion running the Mission Pinball Framework on P-ROC hardware in Gerry's booth at the Expo

    I've not gathered Gerry's impression of MPF but I'm happy to hear he's behind you, and I'm not surprised at all. I applaud what you are all doing and will someday be drawing on the material you are working on. I wish I were coming to expo this year and like last year, it would be purely for the custom machines and the PROC/FAST seminars and whatnot. It would be a pleasure to meet more of the people from the PROC and FAST groups and sit and BS and crush a few beers with both camps. I'm sure most of the misunderstandings are purely due to this wonderful thing called the internet, it's always simpler with a handshake and a raised blood alcohol level

    In any case, I don't really have a horse in this race, and ultimately I don't have much more to add so barring any 'new #*@$ coming to light' this will be the end of my part in this discussion.

    #36 3 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    It would be a pleasure to meet more of the people from the PROC and FAST groups and sit and BS and crush a few beers with both camps. I'm sure most of the misunderstandings are purely due to this wonderful thing called the internet, it's always simpler with a handshake and a raised blood alcohol level

    Amen.

    This was quite a thread to jump into after a long day. There really isn't anything to get all upset about. We are building pinball hardware to help people make games. We have been really fortunate to have some really smart, hardworking people rally along with us. I dont let all the pot stirring that rises and swells on pinside tarnish all the fun we have had working on this hardware.

    We arent here to bury the PROC. In fact, one of the reasons I was stoked about aligning ourselves with the MPF was the shared vision for the big picture and the fact that it was a universal framework. We had originally been working with Brian Dominy (FreeWPC) on developing a new python framework. Right about the time we met Brian Madden, Brian D (who we lovingly refer to him as "original Brian") had some changes in his day job and other projects that limited the time he could commit towards the new framework he wanted to make. But even still, he worked with us and Brian to make a smooth transition and pass on the wisdom. Brian D is an awesome guy and has been a great advisor as we got our stuff up and running.

    If the pinball designer/builder community is fractured across too many platforms it just dilutes the work that gets more rad games created. I cant prevent everyone from questioning our intentions or our integrity. I will say I do find it a bit of a bummer that things skew negative so quickly. I love working on all this FAST stuff. Dave and I are in it daily. Roy Eltham and I have become good friends via working on hardware and software together as well. Roy knocked out the Python wrappers for the C drivers he wrote even though he totally hates Python! (the language, not the man!) Brian M. and Gabe are totally rocking the MPF and being able to rally with people like this is so damn fun. Kevin of Skit-B fame and I met at our NW Pinball Show years ago and have become friends and I love knowing that if I am up late PST and text him with some whacky idea, I can be pretty sure I will hear back, even though he is 3 hours ahead. I can go on and on, but the point I am trying to make is that pinball is fun and making pinball is even more fun. I am stressed out and excited about getting out to Chicago with some of the fun stuff I am working on for the booth.

    I would love to meet up with anyone on here who has questions about what we are doing or just wants to shoot the shit about crazy pinball ideas and try to figure out how the hell to make them work.

    I am going to get away grab myself a 7 Seas British Pale Ale, hit the workshop and spend some time on the game I am building for my kids.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    mc.jpg

    Post edited by fastpinball: Missing S's all over!

    #37 3 years ago

    All good comments...

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    I know you've been a driving force behind PROC and pyprocgame, and countless other endeavours.

    I want to give credit where credit is due. P-ROC and pyprocgame came out in 2009, and I never even heard of them until early last year. I'm proud of my contributions back to pyprocgame since then, but I wouldn't call me a driving force. It's a pretty great community and I'm only a tiny piece.

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    You using PROC concepts and ideas for MPF not only makes sense, it's inevitable due to your influence on where the PROC has come to.

    My (tiny) influence aside, it's important to remember that the P-ROC as a hardware device has certain requirements, so any framework will have some similar concepts. Gerry and Adam wrote pypinproc (the low level python-to-C bridge) for their hardware driver (libpinproc), so MPF and pyprocgame both have access to the same system calls and will therefore have a lot in common. But above that, I would argue that pyprocgame and MPF are pretty different. (Though really it doesn't matter. It's more of an academic conversion.)

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    It sure seems on the surface like you're doing the legwork for FAST

    Agreed 100% (in the context of a framework). We are creating a Python framework so now FAST doesn't have to. That is absolutely true. But we're fine with it. To be honest we hope that MPF is so good that people also perceive that we're doing some legwork for the P-ROC. If you look at some of the other threads on pinside about MPF, you'll see that the whole reason it came into existence was because we were frustrated that everyone writing a game using pyprocgame had to reinvent the wheel. Certainly that's true if you look at the six or eight complete (or nearly complete) pyprocgame-based games in GitHub. (Again, this is not a knock at pyprocgame. It's just that pyprocgame is a starting point. It can get you 10% of the way there before you start having to write your own custom code. We wanted to create something that could get you 90% of the way there before you had to start writing your own code.)

    In fact we started the MPF as an extension of pyprocgame. (The original intention was that we'd just write a whole bunch of add-ons and stuff.) We started digging into it and realized we had to subclass the crap out of everything in pyprocgame, and Gabe and I started having conversations like, "You know, there is zero chance anything we write will be compatible with existing pyprocgame games, and for an extra 10% of work we could just write our own standalone framework which we could do exactly our way." It was around this time that we read about FAST and then about 5 seconds before we said, "Oh yeah, this is a no-brainer. Let's just write this thing ourselves and make it platform-independent."

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Since what you and Gerry (and others) have done up until this point was graciously open sourced to us all I guess there's nothing stopping such behaviour, but it obviously does bug some of us.

    This is an interesting issue. It's funny how so many people are all about the MIT license and not liking the restrictions of GPL, but then as soon as someone else does something they don't like with their code then suddenly everyone's all pissed off. I've always kind of responded like, "well, if you didn't want people doing whatever they wanted with your code, then why did you explicitly grant them the license to do so?"

    So I encourage you not to be bugged about this because if Gerry and Adam didn't want it, then they wouldn't have released their code under MIT.

    Even for Gabe and me, we fully understand the ramifications of releasing MPF under MIT. If Stern wants to take it tomorrow and find & replace "mpf" with "stern", they're welcome to. That won't stop us from still working on MPF to get it to where we believe it can be (which will take many years).

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    Ultimately I think it is, and has been, FAST on the hook for explaining exactly why they exist and what they have come up with that improves on PROC technology.

    Eh, people keep saying this, but there have been a half-dozen pinball controllers which entered the market since the P-ROC. PinHECK, PINterface, the one that Sweet Juicy Melons used (whose name escapes me at the moment).. I don't know why everyone is all mad at FAST for entering the market while I haven't heard anyone comment on these others.

    But the bigger point is this is just the way the world works. One company invented and starting selling the automobile, and now there are dozens of makers. Same for cell phones, microprocessors, sneakers, and casual fast dining establishments. Personally I don't even care if FAST is better or worse than P-ROC or anyone else. I just love that there are lots of choices for customers.

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    I can't see why PROC isn't capable of Funhouse 2.0 and I can't see Gerry turning down that opportunity so I don't know what happened there. Maybe I'm just out of the loop.

    Well first of all, remember that WPC 2.0 and FH 2.0, TOTAN 2.0, etc... all those are just talk now... nothing more than a gleam in their fathers' eyes. I don't think there's anything preventing anyone from building a fully licensed "2.0" game on the P-ROC or PinHECK or any other platform as long as the licensee can demonstrate to the original license holders that they're taking steps to protect their IP. (i.e. they have to have some kind of DRM to make sure the licensed bits can't just be copied around, etc.)

    The FAST board has an ARM processor (three of them, actually) on board as well as local flash storage (I'm not talking about the Beaglebone port, I'm talking about the actual controller board itself), and those guys talk about how they could essentially "lock" the DRM-protected bits (dots and audio mainly) to a certain hardware board, so if you buy a 2.0 game and then want to give it to someone else, you'd have to give them your original FAST board too.

    The P-ROC has an FPGA on board. I don't know how much room Gerry has (in terms of unused gates), but I'm sure there's something he could do there. Maybe he could add something to the firmware where each P-ROC has a unique serial number or a certificate or whatever which talks to a DRM module on the host computer. The thing is that someone has to sit down and design that scheme, and that can't be Gabe or I because we don't know how to do that. But the original IP holders are willing to talk.. it's just that people need to come to them with a plan that's like, "ok, here's how we can protect your IP."

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    I'm sure most of the misunderstandings are purely due to this wonderful thing called the internet, it's always simpler with a handshake and a raised blood alcohol level

    I can't agree enough! We'll crush those beers together some day I'm sure...

    #38 3 years ago
    Quoted from pinlynx:

    Hang on, in earlier threads, the FAST guys were indicating that their system was not a P-ROC clone. If they're using open source P-ROC hardware control code, wouldn't that indicate otherwise?

    I missed this post. As Brian said above, the MPF is not P-ROC code. This could be cleared up really quick if Gerry could comment to that. He is familiar with the MPF and can surely see from a mile away that it is not the same thing. Brian and Gabe have really done an amazing job so far and the best is yet to come.

    Our hardware is not a P-ROC clone. Obviously, what it is doing in a pinball game is going to be very similar, but our design decisions, choice of processor, etc. are our own. Much like how Ben's Pinheck board or Parker's Tommy board are designed to control a pinball game, so is ours. There are a couple more hardworking, smart as hell folks I have met in this pinball journey!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    Post edited by fastpinball: "said below" is actually "said above"

    #39 3 years ago
    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    I know that Gerry has approached manufacturers and license holders in efforts to get his hardware into commercial situations and has been repeatedly turned down (note I do not know the 'why', just that it has happened). Now to see that someone else's "completely different" hardware theoretically running portions of P-ROC code in commercial applications (Skit-B/PPS Funhouse 2.0 being the blatant one), I have to say, it kinda looks greasy. Now, that all being said if FAST have their own from-scratch framework they developed and all of the FAST-endorsed projects are running on said platform there's no problem in my eye; MPF continues on as the "hobbyist" framework, and FAST and P-ROC can have their own specific platforms too. So far it does seem like FAST and MPF are somewhat hand-in-hand tho.

    I should comment on this bit here too.

    The whole FAST / WPC 2.0 situation came to be when I saw that there was an opportunity to work with Rick / PPS to create a legitimate path to doing rewrites and extensions to existing games. In Rick's talk at the Texas Pinball Festival this year he brought up that we were working together to make the 2.0 stuff happen. It is not an exclusive arrangement. The requirements are not something only we could develop. Instead, we worked out a solution that we felt met would meet the requirements in order for WMS to broaden what Rick could do with his licenses. This let Rick go back to WMS and work that out. This is not something he had to do. In fact, it is not going to be a big money maker for him (or really anyone, those margins are tight!). It is just short of annoying for Rick to entertain when he could focus on projects like MMr which have a greater return.

    As Brian said below, this is all very early stuff. In hindsight, I would have probably not announced when we did because it was not ready to go and I have learned in pinball that if people cant have it right now, maybe just keep it to yourself. But really, if any of you wanted to propose a means of accomplishing a 2.0 game to Rick I am sure he would review it. And dont call him up going "so what do we have to do???" Do some research on IP issues, come up with a slick solution and pitch it.

    Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

    From the hobbyist perspective I don't think it matters much since the market is admittedly limited, but commercially for example, stuff like this this Funhouse 2.0 (being developed by Skit-B last I heard) and future FAST/PPS relationships are now potentially piggybacking off of Gerry's "free" code and development efforts, on hardware that earns Gerry not a dime.

    Again, there is no piggy backing on Gerry's anything here. At. All. Ask Gerry. I am certain he super is annoyed to have us in the marketplace when he is busting ass on his video pinball projects, but let's not make more drama. I am really looking forward to playing his game again in Chicago. But this is the thing I that just bums me out, why is it that FAST working with Kevin on projects is such a big deal? As soon as we announced the 2.0 stuff, Kevin was stoked about the idea of using the platform to deliver new game play in classic form factors between future Skit-B projects. I love to work with people who work hard to build cool shit.

    Dah. I am letting all this get to me now. Bleh. Haha. I'll try to brighten up this thread this weekend with more new product info w/ pics. Here is a quick one Tara snapped in the car of the newest 3208s after picking them up. Ok. Good night for real!

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    3208.jpg
    #40 3 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    Again, there is no piggy backing on Gerry's anything here. At. All. Ask Gerry. I am certain he super is annoyed to have us in the marketplace when he is busting ass on his video pinball projects, but let's not make more drama.

    I agree, we don't need drama, and that's never been my intent. Ultimately I'm just trying to understand how all of this is working and why I should/shouldn't be excited for any/all companies and parties involved. Keep in mind that most of us are not programmers or hardware guys and merely wish we were, so misunderstandings or different viewpoints (that are potentially not valid) are inevitable.

    I am really looking forward to playing his game again in Chicago. But this is the thing I that just bums me out, why is it that FAST working with Kevin on projects is such a big deal? As soon as we announced the 2.0 stuff, Kevin was stoked about the idea of using the platform to deliver new game play in classic form factors between future Skit-B projects.

    It's a big deal because Skit B was one of (maybe THE?) first hobbyist builders, and they used the PROC, and now are seemingly jumping ship to your platform. Whether that's true or not is unclear, but it's a reasonably big deal. I'm not saying its right or wrong, it just is, and I would like to know why that is. If a company jumps from Windows to Linux, or Blackberry to iPhone etc... that's a big deal. Doesn't mean it's wrong but it's still noteworthy.

    Dah. I am letting all this get to me now. Bleh. Haha. I'll try to brighten up this thread this weekend with more new product info w/ pics. Here is a quick one Tara snapped in the car of the newest 3208s after picking them up. Ok. Good night for real!

    Please don't interpret my posts as negative or let me get to you - I mentioned I would bow out and I intend to, but I wanted to first make sure you knew I'm not trying to raise torches and pitchforks here, just trying to get some answers to clear up some 'questionable' thoughts I've had since approaching this thread. Thank you for responding and bringing some of these issues/questions into more light. You and I enjoyably chatted in person a couple times last year so I know I'm not dealing with some sketchy unreasonable shrew of a business man We're both/all passionate about the custom pinball hobby and I think we all just want to contribute in our way.

    As I said above, as long as everyone involved (PROC, FAST, PPS, MPF, etc...) are content (specifically with regard to MPF and future framework development) and credit is being given where credit is due, I see no reason not to interpret this thread simply as confusion, as opposed to negativity.

    #41 3 years ago

    Credit is being given where credit is due.

    The low level hardware drivers for the FAST board are unique and very different from the low level hardware drivers for P-ROC. The only real similarity is that they are both written in C/C++. The python wrapping of them is different also. The FAST driver is wrapped using SWIG, while the P-ROC one looks to be using something custom written. They do both end up being python extensions, but the set of functions exposed into python are pretty different.

    At the python level, Brian has built MPF with a "hardware abstraction layer" of sorts. There is some python code that interacts with the pypinproc drive code and exposes an API for the rest of MPF to use, there is an equivalent piece of code that interacts with the fastpinball driver code and exposes the same API for the rest of MPF to use.

    Aside from people who should know better stirring the pot with FUD, everything is fine.

    #42 3 years ago

    Dave and I joined Roy last night in his newly rearranged workshop for a FAST hardware/software session and it was a blast! I snapped a couple pics of the hardware I was packing up to send out to some folks eager to get to building with the new hardware. It has been a really exciting couple weeks w/ more new hardware showing up and the Mission Pinball Framework FAST Controller support being published. I can't wait to get out to the Chicago Pinball Expo and share this with folks in person!

    In the foreground, you will see the new FAST RGB LEDs for inserts. In the background a handful of 3208s and a couple FAST WPC/WPC-S Controllers about to go out in the mail.

    fast_hardware.jpg

    I will be adding the RGB LEDs to the FAST Store soon to give the whole system a good testing.

    fast_rgb_led_insert.jpg

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #43 3 years ago

    Nice to see some sensible to-and-fro discussions.

    I'm sure it annoys Gerry to think another product is in direct competition with his, and I'd love to see him chime in here to join/refute/clear up any perceived slights.

    I will be supporting his Multimorphic game development, and will support Funhouse 2.0 (with cash), and hope both companies have great success. This will happen while great products are being produced which people want - and things are going well in this direction so far.

    best of luck.

    #44 3 years ago

    some nice looking PCB's Aaron

    #45 3 years ago
    Quoted from dendoc:

    Nice to see some sensible to-and-fro discussions.
    I'm sure it annoys Gerry to think another product is in direct competition with his, and I'd love to see him chime in here to join/refute/clear up any perceived slights.
    I will be supporting his Multimorphic game development, and will support Funhouse 2.0 (with cash), and hope both companies have great success. This will happen while great products are being produced which people want - and things are going well in this direction so far.
    best of luck.

    Yeah! More cool stuff for making more pinball only means.... wait for it... more pinball! I think what Gerry is doing with the video pinball is an epic undertaking! I look forward to playing it (if he will let me!) when we are in Chicago.

    But Gerry won't chime in here. He has nothing to be gained by setting the record straight. Its probably better to let the bad vibes towards us fester. To each there own. But that is not how we roll.

    This community is too small to be cut into camps over misinformation. This is one of the reasons we were supportive of a universal game framework. Get people programming great games and let the hardware compete on performance, scaleability and price. But here is something that I can promise: We will not be doing a video game pinball platform. That one is all Gerry and I hope he does some awesome things with it. In fact, I even have some ideas that I think would be awesome for it.

    If any of you spot Gerry and I talking pinball over beers in Chicago you know I will be rattling on and on... "oh and what if it did this?!... and then it could totally do that... have you ever thought of making this do that?!"

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #46 3 years ago

    What would be nice is a pinball controller system that cost less than $1,200 to put in a game. I'm thinking of EMs being converted to SS, mostly. A single board Sys11 type of solution in the $300 or less range would be nice.

    Does FAST have anything like that on the horizon?

    #47 3 years ago

    A single board solution would be cool. Especially for System 11 games. Boards cost alot to make in the quantities they are doing, so I can see why the price point is high, but it would be nice if there were some cheaper options for doing EM conversions.

    #48 3 years ago

    It might not be quite that cheap but the Ben Heck / Spooky machines are running on a pretty lean and mean system. http://longhornengineer.com/category/pinball/team-benheck/

    #49 3 years ago
    Quoted from ecurtz:

    It might not be quite that cheap but the Ben Heck / Spooky machines are running on a pretty lean and mean system. http://longhornengineer.com/category/pinball/team-benheck/

    I have one of the Rev 5 Spooky/PinHeck boards to play with and I'm pretty impressed with it. It's got quite a bit of power and is a single board solution.

    Currently it takes a little more developer knowledge to program as it doesn't have a robust framework like the PROC has, but that will also change as it evolves.

    #50 3 years ago

    Are the Pinheck boards for sale yet?

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