(Topic ID: 281690)

Far Out - scoring reels advancing in tandem, bonus constantly lit

By sdrob

3 years ago


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  • 17 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by MarkG
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 3 years ago

I'm helping a friend bring his 1974 Gottlieb 'Far Out' back to life. The machine sat unused in a basement for about 20 years when I was enlisted to help with restoration. He is the second owner and the unit is in good overall condition. Full history and other details are included below.

While we've brought this game back to life after a 20-year sleep, I'm struggling to get the scoring and gameplay behavior dialed in. Often (but not always!) the scoring reels will advance in tandem (i.e. the 10s and 100s reels will move in unison). Also, the 'Double Bonus' light remains constantly lit, despite the player, ball, or targets that get triggered.

In addition to a careful playfield cleaning, rubber + lamp replacements, I carefully serviced all 16 scoring reels (teardown, clean, polish, properly lube, adjust switches, reassemble) and am fairly confident that all the 0, 1, 9 and EOS switches are adjusted properly. I serviced the step-up / step-down bonus mechanism under the playfield to restore proper mechanical function when manually operated, but am not sure this unit is working correctly during actual play.

I don't have the luxury of having the unit nearby, so am working on it periodically as I learn more about how things are supposed to function.

Thanks in advance for any tips or help you might be able to offer.

=====

NAME OF GAME, MANUFACTURER AND YEAR: Far Out, Gottlieb 1974

DID IT EVER WORK IN YOUR POSSESSION? I am helping a friend with restoration and have been able to get it working. Currently fine-tuning scoring and gameplay issues.

WHERE DID THE GAME COME FROM? Unit was acquired from an operator in the 70s and played intermittently in a private home until about 20 years ago. Machine sat unused since that time.

WHAT WAS THE LAST SERVICE YOU PERFORMED? Restoration was started a few months ago. Scoring motor ran continuously until all 16 scoring reels were fully serviced and properly lubed. Credit unit in back box also serviced and set to free play. Player Unit contacts shined up and lightly lubed with contact grease. Advance unit under play field rotor contacts cleaned up, mechanics realigned and repaired. Playfield carefully cleaned and waxed, full rubber replacement.

BLOWN FUSES: Not blowing fuses at present

SMELL: some minor burning upon cleaning and servicing the 'Advance' indexing unit under the play field, but that has stopped. No other smells.

OBVIOUS PAST WORK PERFORMED: There appears to be a couple of non-factory jumper wires on several switch stacks and the 'Advance' mechanism

DO YOU HAVE A VOLT/MULTI-METER: Yes, and I'm familiar with how to use it

CAN YOU SOLDER? Yes, I had to repair several disconnected scoring reel leads

DO YOU HAVE THE SCHEMATIC? Yes, plus the Game Operation instructions.

YOUR LOCATION? Machine is in Temecula, CA

1_far_out_playfield (resized).jpg1_far_out_playfield (resized).jpg2_bonus_unit (resized).jpg2_bonus_unit (resized).jpg3_bonus_unit (resized).jpg3_bonus_unit (resized).jpg4_bonus_unit (resized).jpg4_bonus_unit (resized).jpg5_jumper (resized).jpg5_jumper (resized).jpg6_advance_unit (resized).jpg6_advance_unit (resized).jpg7_advance_unit (resized).jpg7_advance_unit (resized).jpg
#2 3 years ago
Quoted from sdrob:

i.e. the 10s and 100s reels will move in unison

1) What are the 10 Point relay (N) and 100 Point relay (M) doing when this happens?
2) Does this happen to all players?
3) Does this only happen to adjacent score reels?
4) Does this happen to other score reels like 100s and 1000s or 1000s and 10,000s?

#3 3 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

1) What are the 10 Point relay (N) and 100 Point relay (M) doing when this happens?
2) Does this happen to all players?
3) Does this only happen to adjacent score reels?
4) Does this happen to other score reels like 100s and 1000s or 1000s and 10,000s?

Thanks for your reply, Howard. I'm heading to work on the machine this afternoon and will reply with answers to these questions. Good to know where to focus my efforts.

#4 3 years ago

Hi sdrob
welcome to pinside. Look at the beginning of this Video http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo - see how the man (I believe his name is Clay) triggers Relays in the Controlbank (at about time "00:50") - for 2nd, 3rd, 4th player - AND the leftmost Relay in that bank is the LB-Double-Bonus-Relay - is in Your Friends Far Out the LB-Relay not resetted when in the end of Start-Up the whole Control-Bank gets resetted ?
Well, Far Out has another Relay for Double-Bonus (when playing Ball-1, -2, -3, -4 in a five-Ball-Game) - the CX-Double-Bonus-Relay - does it faulty always pull ?

Your post-1, fourth picture - the Bonus-Unit - have You taken the picture "Unit has many Bonus" ? See my first JPG - Zero-Bonus - second JPG Zero, One, Two Bonus. (((Far Out happens to be my Number-One-Pin - and then I have several Number-Two-Pins.))) Greetings Rolf

0Far-Out-Zero-Bonus (resized).jpg0Far-Out-Zero-Bonus (resized).jpg0Far-Out-div-Bonus (resized).jpg0Far-Out-div-Bonus (resized).jpg
#5 3 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

1) What are the 10 Point relay (N) and 100 Point relay (M) doing when this happens?
2) Does this happen to all players?
3) Does this only happen to adjacent score reels?
4) Does this happen to other score reels like 100s and 1000s or 1000s and 10,000s?

Thanks, Howard.

1) The N and M relays appear to function fine
2) No, the behavior varies from player to player
3) In some instances, reels two units away are affected
4) While it's probably rather boring to watch, I shot this video to show the errant score reel behavior: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z4k5bps28x8q05/2020-11-15%2017.23.03.mov?dl=0

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from sdrob:

Often (but not always!) the scoring reels will advance in tandem (i.e. the 10s and 100s reels will move in unison).

I would check the Player Unit, based on the vid in post 5.

#7 3 years ago

I know you said that you're fairly confident that the 0, 1-8, and 9 switches on the score reels are adjusted correctly, but after watching that video you posted, those score reels for player 1 and 2 act as if their switches are not adjusted correctly. That player 1 score behavior is odd - the 10's and 1000's sometimes moving together like that, and repeatable. Check the switch tabs also to make sure nothing is touching/shorted up there in the player 1 area.

And yes, assuming the game isn't set at too steep an angle, some orange dot flipper coils from PBR would help you knock down those drop targets.

There are other problems too - your double bonus light is on all the time and all the bonus lights are out obviously, though the bonus seems to be working to some extent....doesn't look like the bonus is doubling, even though the double bonus light is on.

#8 3 years ago

These are the sw. that control the Double Bonus lite.

Capture (resized).pngCapture (resized).png
1 month later
#9 3 years ago

Ok - finally had a chance to access and work on my buddy's machine again yesterday. rolf_martin_062 I found and fixed the 'Double Bonus' problem...one of the main relay bar switches was bent and closed. I also discovered that the 10s chime is missing it's strike plunger, so I'll get one of those on the way. As for the scoring reels, paulace and HowardR I've had zero luck, as no amount of scoring reel adjustments seems to change their behavior (and they seem to do different things based on which playfield items are triggered). I shot 4 brief videos of each scoring reel in action - hopefully these will allow someone to offer guidance and next-steps.

I think currieddog is probably on the right path, as my suspicion is now with the player unit in the backbox. My understanding is that the player unit sends playfield signals to the L, M, and N relays, which then tell the scoring reels to advance appropriately. Is this correct?

Here are the videos:
Player One score reel behavior: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ht4dq2yof80yx97/player1.MOV?dl=0
Player Two score reel behavior: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3gcs02opqvcwrtm/player2.MOV?dl=0
Player Three score reel behavior: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ybvkhjp3ir3ya29/player3.MOV?dl=0
Player Four score reel behavior: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ak39dk2d3tl7e8n/player4.MOV?dl=0

Thanks for any additional help, and happy holidays

#10 3 years ago

The player unit does route scoring impulses to the appropriate player's score reels. Those scoring impulses come from the pf switch, which energizes the L, M or N relay, then through the player unit, finally getting to the score reel. The switches on the player unit are easy enough to inspect. Get in there with a good light and watch those switches on each stack as you rotate the player unit manually. See if they open and close as the cams turn. Also look for tabs touching or other types of shorts on the back side of those stacks of switches. Make sure those screws holding the stacks down are tight.

If carefully going over the player unit doesn't help, and you have time, I'd love to see 3 clear close-up photos of score reel switches when the score reel is reading 0, 1-8, and 9. Try player 1 - maybe the 10 and 1000 reels. Some of that behavior is very much like mis-adjusted score reel switches...but then, some of it isn't.

That bonus behavior for player 1 is pretty odd - you're getting way more pulses to the 1000 reel than you should. In the schematic snippet below, I think that could happen if, for example, the motor 3B switch was always closed. It's only supposed to close on the 3rd pulse from 1A, so it should only pass one pulse along for each turn of the score motor. But your 1000 chime was only ringing once out of every 5 of those 1000 pulses....weird. If switch 3B were your problem, though, it would act that way for all players - I don't understand why it's only happening on player 1. But it's definitely getting those pulses from somewhere, and shouldn't be. I'll continue looking at the schematic, but hopefully, someone more knowledgeable will chime in and we'll both learn something.

Far Out bonus (resized).JPGFar Out bonus (resized).JPG

#11 3 years ago

Wow - thanks a million, @paulace...lots of great info in your post and I have a path to pursue now. I'll get close-up photos of the player score reels the next time I visit the machine, and hopefully we'll find something I'm missing. I've gone over those scoring reel switches and adjustments a dozen times so far, but maybe I've missed something.

Now that I better understand the signal pathway between the playfield items, scoring relays, the player unit and the score reels themselves, I'm going to revisit the player unit more closely. I'm honestly a bit intimidated to dig into that component beyond basic switch cleaning and adjustment (which I've done once already), but it may ultimately have to be rebuilt.

Thank you VERY MUCH!

#12 3 years ago

Well, I wish I had something more concrete for you. I don't believe that motor 3B switch is your problem because it would affect all the players, not just player 1..I was just using it as an example. And I have problems with the idea that it's your player unit also, since you never have odd scores going to other players - all your problems seem to be affecting just one player at a time. Since the player unit is responsible for routing all the scoring impulses to the correct players, I would think a problem with that unit would send scores to other player's reels. But maybe I'm wrong about that.
Some of your scoring issues involve reels that are not adjacent, but two over, malfunctioning...that's curious too. Makes me think that the score reel switches aren't the whole story either.
I'm thinking your problem is in another part of the circuit completely, but for now, it's always good to go through the player unit carefully and check that all the switches are tight, clean and gapped correctly...can't hurt.

Be patient and observant while you're inside the machine checking things - all it takes is one loose/shorted wire or misbehaving switch.

#13 3 years ago

Nice videos. What I see in the first one is that the Player 1 1000s Score Reel is trying to reset during the game. If you watch closely, it only misbehaves when it's not at zero. Here's the circuit:
Far Out 1000s Score Reel (resized).jpgFar Out 1000s Score Reel (resized).jpg
There are two paths into the Score Reel solenoid. The lower path through switches on the Player Unit (P1B) and the L/1000 Point relay are used during game play. The upper path in the red box through the Runout switch and the Z1 relay switch should only be used during reset.

When the 1000s Score Reel is at zero, the Runout switch is open which disables the reset path. Once the 100s Score Reel has carried over to the 1000s Score Reel, the Runout switch closes. In this case the Z1 relay switch should also be open but I suspect that your is closed, probably because the switch isn't gapped properly or the solder tabs are touching, which lets five pulses into the 1000s score reel any time the Score Motor turns, just like it would during reset.

At the end of the video where it tries to count the end of ball bonus both paths are being used. The first 1000 points of bonus pushes the 1000s Score Reel off zero which enables the reset pulses because the motor is turning. At the same time you're getting pulses for the bonus count and things get complicated. I think the root cause (the Z1 relay switch) is the same though.

It also seems that your 10 point chime isn't working...

/Mark

#14 3 years ago

The Player 2 video shows a couple of symptoms. First the 10s Score Reel doesn't carry over to the 100s Score reel. That should be the path in red:
Far Out M relay (resized).jpgFar Out M relay (resized).jpg
One or both of the switches in red probably isn't closing which keeps the M/100 point relay from firing.

The second symptom is the 10,000s Score Reel adding points when it shouldn't. This looks different than the issue with the player 1 10,000s Score Reel. Notice that the reels advance at the same time for player 2 where player 1 they advance at slightly different times. This makes me think that the 9th position switch on the player 2 1000s Score Reel might be gapped too close so that vibrations close it occasionally:
Far Out  10000s reel (resized).jpgFar Out 10000s reel (resized).jpg

#15 3 years ago

I think the Player 4 issue is similar to the Player 2 issue. The path is nearly the same to the M relay:
Far Out M relay2 (resized).jpgFar Out M relay2 (resized).jpg
but it may be that the 9th position switch on the 4th player 10s Score Reel isn't opening reliably so the 10s carry to the 100s most of the time. You could test that theory by blocking the 9th position switch with a piece of paper to see if that changes things. You shouldn't get any carry at all in that case, sort of like Player 2.

/Mark

#16 3 years ago

Lots of great info and diagnostic pathways to pursue in your posts, @markg! These might be the best Christmas gift ever

I'll do my homework, study up, and dive in again sometime in the next week or two. If I can capture a video of the player unit in the backbox, would I want to focus on the leaf switches, the outer contact board, or both?

#17 3 years ago

On the whole your Player Unit seems to be stepping appropriately. There may be a switch out of adjustment but that would be hard to spot on video.

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