(Topic ID: 107894)

F14 Tomcat: No sound after rottendog MPU install.


By ShootForSlrValue

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by kbliznick
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#1 5 years ago

Hey all, sorry for another tech post. I'm checking out an F14 and when powered on, there are several things that don't happen, and one thing that does that have me really scratching my head. I've tried looking at the guides, but I'm not confident that the boot up issues addressed there match what's going on with the game.

When powered on:
1) No displays, no diagnostic LED, no startup tone (obviously, since I'm not even getting through the initial diagnostics.

2) Left sling coil energizes momentarily. Pressing the flipper buttons causes the flipper coils to energize.

Again, you can't start a game, nothing comes up on the displays either. The only thing I've isolated, is that when 1J8 is disconnected (opto/switch on MPU), the coils previously mentioned aren't energized, however, it doesn't boot up either.

Lastly... There should be a harness for those GI wires on the PS, yeah?

Any direction would be greatly appreciated.

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#2 5 years ago

The first thing you might want to do is get your DMM out and check all the voltages from the power supply to ensure that you have all the proper voltages. Also check all fuses. Take the fuse out of the socket and test with your DMM don't rely on a visual inspection.

Let us know how that goes.

Al

#3 5 years ago

The PS could mess with the game not booting?

#4 5 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

The PS could mess with the game not booting?

Yes, especially if the +5 volts is bad.

#5 5 years ago

For the GI connections to the PS board, what you have is stock..... they were wired direct to the board with a short pigtail and then a connector...

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:WMS_PS_5765-09466-01_rev_B.JPG

Check the 5v on the MPU board first, if that's not there nothings going to work.

#6 5 years ago

So I'm lucky enough to have access to another working F14. We took the 5+ power from that game and hooked it to my MPU. The +5v came on, but nothing else. The guy helping me wanted to check the procesor ICs, 6820s. He plugged them in to the working f14 and the game did not boot or go into diagnostics. We then plugged the good 6820s from the working game into the non working board and it still didn't boot up. He said at this point it's really a shot in the dark as to where to go next. Thoughts?

#7 5 years ago

Other than the +5 issue.. the slings/pop/flippers are all controlled by the 7402s in and around the special solenoid section.

My guess is, something on your CPU board in that section is compromised, 1 or both 7402s, the PIA, something in the mix.

Are you comfortable doing troubleshooting and board repair? If so, we can proceed, if not, I'd be glad to tackle the repair for you if it's above your comfort zone.

#8 5 years ago

Yeah I'm comfortable with it! I need the experience either way.

#9 5 years ago

So I just went through the guides and tested all of the PIAs with my meter and found that pin 9 on U51 is shorted out. Probably a good idea to start by replacing that PIA, yeah?

#10 5 years ago

U51-9 is shorted to ground by jumper w7. That's expected.

Do you have any of the following:

Leon's test tom for sys11/de boards
Logic probe
Computer power supply
Manual and schematic?

#11 5 years ago

I don't have a test rom, just ordered a logic probe and computer power supply. I also have the manual and schematics.

#12 5 years ago

I checked u11 and u13 as well.

Following this: If either of these two chips is bad, the game will never boot. Check both of these chips using your DMM with the game off. Set your DMM to the "diode" setting, and put the red lead on ground (pin 10). Then put the black lead on pins 1-9 and pins 11-19. You should get a reading between .4 and .6 volts. If you get a short (zero) reading, replace that chip.

On pin 16 of u 11, I got a reading of 0.088. I'm kind of confused because the schematic only shows 8 lines that lead into u15 (which didn't work in the working f14 either) and I'm assuming this is because 10 is ground?

#13 5 years ago

Lastly, U2 and U3 are giving me crazy readings. If I'm reading the schatic right, pin 2 is the ground in those chips. I'm getting readings from 0.071 to 0.869 from leg to leg.

#14 5 years ago

Edit:

// Error: Image 311071 not found //

4 months later
#15 4 years ago

So I've replaced the MPU after trying to repair the old one myself and after being given advice that it's likely a giant paperweight now.

Now the game boots up and is playable!

UNTIL..... the right coil got so hot that it melted the coil sleeve and locked the flipper bat into place. I had a hell of a time getting the old coil off and the new one on. After verifying the correct wiring of the right flipper coil, I got the new one installed and started a new game. Within two or three minutes, it was definitely starting to get warm with very little use. The left coil wasn't even warm to the touch.

I was instructed to check and see if the appropriate fuses were in the game, and they are. What direction should I head in now?

Thanks, pinside!

#16 4 years ago

Also, I've checked to see that there aren't any other wires touching and tried visually inspecting for shorts with no luck.

#17 4 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

UNTIL..... the right coil got so hot that it melted the coil sleeve and locked the flipper bat into place. I had a hell of a time getting the old coil off and the new one on. After verifying the correct wiring of the right flipper coil, I got the new one installed and started a new game. Within two or three minutes, it was definitely starting to get warm with very little use. The left coil wasn't even warm to the touch.
I was instructed to check and see if the appropriate fuses were in the game, and they are. What direction should I head in now?
Thanks, pinside!

Common for this condition to be EOS related, either the contacts are not opening all the way or otherwise shorted. When the flipper button is held in, the EOS makes the low power high resistance side of the flipper coil do the work, and when working correctly you can hold the cabinet button in all day and the coil never gets hot. Hold the flipper button in and look for at least 1/8" gap at full flipper extension. Also check the big yellow EOS spark arresting capacitor to make certain it isn't shorted.

#18 4 years ago

Thanks way-out. Can those caps be tested in circuit?

#19 4 years ago

Here are pictures of the open and closed EOS. I'm going to go ahead and replace it. In test mode, it only registers one out of every three or four activations that is being hit.

image.jpg image-962.jpg
#20 4 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

Thanks way-out. Can those caps be tested in circuit?

No, you will have to lift one end of the cap to get an accurate reading because it goes across the coils and diodes.

#21 4 years ago

Thanks.

That issue is fixed. Is was the EOS switch. Just when I thought this thing was good to go, something ELSE goes wrong. I have a Rottendog MPU with te daughter board for the sound. I hadn't put the daughter board on yet because I needed a new chip for the 3802(?) spot. I finally got that, plugged it in, turned the game on, heard a pop, and now I have zero sound. I detached the daughter board (which is how I had it, but had sound before) to no avail. Did I blow out my sound board or something? I'm not even getting a test tone on power up.

#22 4 years ago

Im still getting the constant hum, and I just played a game and in the middle of the game I got the start up tone... Any ideas?

#23 4 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

Im still getting the constant hum, and I just played a game and in the middle of the game I got the start up tone... Any ideas?

Check the power supply, especially 5VDC logic DC level and AC ripple on the +5VDC logic. Did the game reboot - or did you just get the start up tone and the game never rebooted? What I am getting at is this: there could be a loose/dirty cable connection between the sound board and the game. It sounds to me like the sound system is running the diagnostics mid game due to restarting from a momentary loss of power. Just a guess. This could also be causing hum (a "ground loop" situation)

#24 4 years ago

The game never rebooted, just randomly got the startup tone. Ill go check now.

#25 4 years ago

Voltages are all fine.

#26 4 years ago

I'm not at my game, my suggestion was to pull the power cable feed into the soundboard- see if you get the same symptom you experienced, where you get the tone but the machine never reboots. This might also happen with the ribbon cable as well. I'm pretty sure that is what will happen - but as I said, I'm not at my game to test this out. I know that the "bong" tone is an indication that the sound system has booted.

#27 4 years ago

I've pulled each of the power cables, ribbon cables, and ground cables. Upon doing so, I get no sound at all, not evens the static I could hear when everything is plugged in.

However, upon inspection of the EPROMs, one leg was bent and not in the socket. I reseated the EPROMS and am now able to hear only two sound effects, the launch noise off the plunge and the bonus x noise when you shoot one of the inner loops. I can also hear the test tone upon power up now as well.

#28 4 years ago

I should also note that you can't hear these in test mode either.

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

I've pulled each of the power cables, ribbon cables, and ground cables. Upon doing so, I get no sound at all

Right, the point was to pull and then plug in one at a time to see if you would get the bong tone. But now you have resolved that much.

#30 4 years ago

Here's where I'm at. Again, I had the daughter board from the MPU011A (Rottendog) off and had sound before all of this started.

In this series of events, no sound means even in test mode.

Since Monday, I've done the following while working with the D-11581 sound card:
1) Took a deep breath.
2) Installed two 6802 IC's into the U3_D and U24 on the Rottendog Daughter Board.
3) Powered on game, heard a pop from the speakers and turned off the game.
4) Removed daughter board, powered on game, no sound, no boot up tone, nothing.
5) Unplugged and reseated connections at J1, J2, J3, and the ribbon cable at the analog I/O. Powered on game, no boot up tone, no sound.
6) Reseated ROMs at U4 and U19 on the D-11581 and the music roms on their respective locations on the daughter board. Boot tone present, no other sounds.
7) Reseated 6809 at U8. Boot tone present, get the plane launch and bonus x noises while in game, no other sounds in game play, no sounds in test mode (even those present in-game).
8 ) Powered game on without J1 plugged in (while all others), no sound.
9) Powered game on without J2 plugged in (while all others), no sound.
10) Powered game on without J3 plugged in (while all others), no sound.
11) Powered game on without Analog I/O plugged in (while all others), no sound.
12) Upon physical inspection of the card, found that the 6809 U8 was very warm.

Could my IC at U8 be shorted? Could I have shorted out the 6821 at U12 somehow? I feel like I've looked at everything and can't figure out why this is happening.

To make matters worse, the schematic online and in my manual are for the other model sound card that was used prior to this one, so I have no reference point to look upstream of either one of those to figure out what could have gone out. Womp.

Any further guidance is appreciated.

#32 4 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

To make matters worse, the schematic online and in my manual are for the other model sound card that was used prior to this one


What do you mean?

Tomcat uses D-11298 background sound and speech board. Is that what is installed in the game? Has the sound ever worked completely in this game?

#33 4 years ago

The D-11581 was used after the first 5000 games produced according to pinwiki

#34 4 years ago

Also, the sound has worked completely before.

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

Here's where I'm at. Again, I had the daughter board from the MPU011A (Rottendog) off and had sound before all of this started.
In this series of events, no sound means even in test mode.
Since Monday, I've done the following while working with the D-11581 sound card:
1) Took a deep breath.
2) Installed two 6802 IC's into the U3_D and U24 on the Rottendog Daughter Board.
3) Powered on game, heard a pop from the speakers and turned off the game.
4) Removed daughter board, powered on game, no sound, no boot up tone, nothing.
5) Unplugged and reseated connections at J1, J2, J3, and the ribbon cable at the analog I/O. Powered on game, no boot up tone, no sound.
6) Reseated ROMs at U4 and U19 on the D-11581 and the music roms on their respective locations on the daughter board. Boot tone present, no other sounds.
7) Reseated 6809 at U8. Boot tone present, get the plane launch and bonus x noises while in game, no other sounds in game play, no sounds in test mode (even those present in-game).
8 ) Powered game on without J1 plugged in (while all others), no sound.
9) Powered game on without J2 plugged in (while all others), no sound.
10) Powered game on without J3 plugged in (while all others), no sound.
11) Powered game on without Analog I/O plugged in (while all others), no sound.
12) Upon physical inspection of the card, found that the 6809 U8 was very warm.

Could my IC at U8 be shorted? Could I have shorted out the 6821 at U12 somehow? I feel like I've looked at everything and can't figure out why this is happening.
To make matters worse, the schematic online and in my manual are for the other model sound card that was used prior to this one, so I have no reference point to look upstream of either one of those to figure out what could have gone out. Womp.
Any further guidance is appreciated.

You installed 2 CPUs in the daughter card?

I would think it would be 1 CPU, and 1 PIA...

#36 4 years ago

I may have mistyped. Sorry.

#37 4 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

Here are pictures of the open and closed EOS. I'm going to go ahead and replace it. In test mode, it only registers one out of every three or four activations that is being hit.

image.jpg (Click image to enlarge)
image-962.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

I know you are past this step but I wanted to go back and point out a newbie mistake that I see all the time that leads to incorrectly gapped EOS switches.

You cannot move the flipper assembly by the pawl or by the flipper bat when checking the EOS. The coil does not grab the pawl or the flipper bat, it grabs the plunger and you too must grab the plunger. The reason is there there is always some amount of play or slop in the plunger link where it connects to the plunger and some more play or slop in the link where it attaches to the pawl (even on new parts). When you move the flipper by the pawl or the bat you are eliminating this slop and are moving the pawl further than the coil actually will. So you might think the switch is opening as far as it is in your picture, in actuality it is not moving that far. And the more used the part, the more play and the more likely that the EOS might actually stay closed when the coil flips even though you made sure it had an open gap.

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