(Topic ID: 47052)

F14, sys11, solenoid issues.

By Luckydogg420

11 years ago


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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by wayout440
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#1 11 years ago

I just replaced the pop bumper on my F-14 tomcat. It's been sitting for a couple months unplugged.

Now theirs a solenoid problem. First power up and the pop bumper locked on. quick turn off disconnected the pop bumper. back on, and Flippers were not working (all 4), both slingshots are out, the fuse was blowen.

Doing a solenoid test on individual coils, the yagof kicker locked on, next the left out lane save locked on, then nothing from the slings. Turned it off again.

Now when I power up the right sling pops then the left locks on.

Any thoughts? My electrician is out of town

#2 11 years ago

I thought maybe I dropped solder onto a bundle of wires.... Didn't think so but hey. Looked over everything again, didn't notice anything. Cut open the wire harness and played with the wires for a bit in the area under the spot where I was soldering. Again nothing...

This was the fuse that blew

image.jpgimage.jpg

#3 11 years ago

Why did you replace pop bumper (what happened)

#4 11 years ago

Just making it look pretty. The old one was broken and worn out.

I don't think the problem is on the power line coming from 3j3 connection on power supply

It's looking like the other line running to the CPU board at IJI9 is the problem. There is 34v on the wire at the plug on the CPU board. I have a logic probe, but have never used it before. This might be a good time to learn how to use it.

The switches all look good. I've reconnected the pop bumper wires and it doesn't lock on at power up so I don't think it's the bumper switch. But. The left sling locks on still. It's not the sling switch.

I can't seem to find the return wire on the schematics that runs through the special solenoids ( blu/brn ) wire at IJI9.

Really hope it's not the switch matrix that's screwed.

I double checked every thing but if I did something dumb like hooking up the coil wires in reverse what would be the problem be; a pooched CPU? I have 4ohm resistance on the coil so it should be good. I didn't check the diode but that shouldn't be the problem.

#5 11 years ago

Wait a second, back up the truck a bit.

Your diagram shows a fuse that supplies shooter lane feeder, a bunch of ejects, and the kickbacks.
You said your flippers are out, but that fuse is not inline with the flippers. Fuse for the flippers is on the flipper supply board F2. Check for +50 volts at the flipper coil. Put your DMM on DC voltage. Put the black lead on ground (metal side rail of game). Put the red lead on any of the three lugs of the coil. You should get between 50 and 80 volts. No voltage means a fuse is blown, or a wire has broken. Are the flippers still dead?

Checking the switch matrix is no big deal if the machine will boot and go into test mode. Just leave the connectors for all the coil triggers off and go into switch edge test with no balls in the machine. No switches should be registering, then you will know that you have no stuck switches and you can manually activate some switches by hand to assess the overall health of your switch matrix.

Suggest you check these items first and report back.

#6 11 years ago

There is 70v going to each flipper coil.

I have removed the blu/brn wire from CPU connector IJI9 special sol 1. When this wire is disconnected the game is fine, except for a couple coils.
The right sling is working fine. But, The left sling, pop bumper, 2 top left ball diverters and all 4 flippers don't work. Each of these coils read 70v on all 3 connections. The switch test shows nothing.

When the blu/brn wire is connected to the CPU the switch test reads "left sling" although both switches on the left sling look to be ok and not touching. The left sling coil locks on immediately. With fear of burning out the coil I disconnect the wire quickly.

So I don't think the problem is with coil power. image.jpgimage.jpg

#7 11 years ago

In the switch edge test when I press the right sling the coil fires, should this happen?

The left sling switch doesn't register in the switch test but I do hear a click from a relay

#8 11 years ago

Yes, the coil should fire when you press the sling in edge test. You should not hear any relays.

The fact that reconnecting the trigger wire shows the sling is active all the time is indicating a shorted switch or diode. Even if it looks good, you'll likely have to measure with a meter. I had a target switch on my F-14 that was shorted internally and I had no choice but to replace it.

Both flippers not working is probably the return to ground path for the buttons and is usually a problem with those connectors@ the MPU or K1 flipper relay. Grounding one side of the flipper buttons with a jumper wire if that fires the flippers for sure is something wrong with that path.

#10 11 years ago

Grounding IJI9 blu-brn wire to side rail locks on left sling, flippers don't work while it is jumpered.
With the wire removed from CPU connector iji9 #7 (blu/brn Q75 sp sol 1), I jumpered one side of the flipper buttons switch and then the other to ground, and was able to fire each if the 4 flippers this way.

Visual inspection of connections on the power supply below K1 seem ok, but look to have been worked on before. Connector 3J3 also looks ok, the vio-blu #4 wire traces back to the left sling that is locking on, as well as the right sling, lane diverters and other coils.

All connections look ok on the flipper power supply board should I be tracing the wires at connector I5j2? That's labeled "flipper power ground"

#11 11 years ago
Quoted from Luckydogg420:

Grounding IJI9 blu-brn wire to side rail locks on left sling, flippers don't work while it is jumpered.
With the wire removed from CPU connector iji9 #7 (blu/brn Q75 sp sol 1), I jumpered one side of the flipper buttons switch and then the other to ground, and was able to fire each if the 4 flippers this way.

Don't ground the blu-brn wire, ground the transistor tab Q75 to test.

Quoted from Luckydogg420:

Visual inspection of connections on the power supply below K1 seem ok, but look to have been worked on before. Connector 3J3 also looks ok, the vio-blu #4 wire traces back to the left sling that is locking on, as well as the right sling, lane diverters and other coils.
All connections look ok on the flipper power supply board should I be tracing the wires at connector I5j2? That's labeled "flipper power ground"

Visual inspection is not good enough. First make sure cabinet button grounds make it back to CPU board IJ19 1 & 2. (ref. pg. 1 of 4 on CPU schematics, pg 55a B1) These connections are not continuous wires either. Both go through the connector 7P1-7J1 (reference cabinet wiring diagram pg 50) You need to make certain K1 relay pulls in and completes ground path from IJ19 1&2 over to common special solenoid ground 2A1. If the relay is not pulling in there could be logic problems on the CPU board - which might explain some of the other locking coil problems but don't get too far ahead with any assumptions until verifying this part of the circuits function. Sometimes in fixing one problem you might resolve the others so see if we can get the flippers working first.

#12 10 years ago

The flippers are working! Thanks for all the help so far.

IJI9 wire 1 and 2 tested fine, so I tested the transistor tab on Q75, that worked and pulled in K1 relay. The culprit ended up being the connector on the flipper power supply board. I5J2 wire 8.

IJI9 wire 7 is now reconnected. Flippers are working again.

The same 2.5A fuse under the playfield blew, the right sling locked on this time, so I quickly removed it again. I went into the switch edge test. No switches were on. The pop bumper, and both slings didn't register in the switch edge test. Everything else seems to be working.

I didn't see any other blown fuses.

#13 10 years ago

Pops and slings are special solenoids - this is why you might not be seeing a stuck switch for them in test mode:
"The only different between the special solenoids and other system 11 solenoids is how they are activated. Normal system 11 solenoids have a switch on the switch matrix which the CPU monitors. If the switch is closed, the CPU then activates the solenoid and scores the points. The special solenoids can also be used like this too. But they also have an option of having a switch on the playfield that directly controls the solenoid, instead of the CPU. If the playfield switch is closed, this automatically activates the special solenoid's driver transistor, which fires the coil. If this switch gets stuck on, the solenoid coil will lock on or "machine gun"
(from repair guide online)

#14 10 years ago

I spent some time with it today, when the connector IJI9 is removed from the CPU and the fuse inline. I can ground each wire to ground the rail and fire each coil.

The switch stack for the pop bumper might be the problem, the score registers but the coil won't fire from hitting the switch.

Trying to ground the transistors to the rail had little luck. I also think there's damaged connections on the board for transistors Q71-Q77. I will look into this further.

image.jpgimage.jpg

#15 10 years ago

It's hard to see clearly the detail on the pics, a bit fuzzy even with magnification, looks like there is some problem with the soldering where the legs enter the board on Q77 and Q75. Lack of a fillet visible on the legs of Q77 is a givaway (if you don't know what that means, it's the little mound of solder that is built up between the plated through hole and the component lead)

I'm not saying that it is a cause of a problem because I cannot see the soldering and condition of the traces on both sides of the boards through this picture alone - it may be fine. But just looking at the pic here invites a further investigation. Soldering looks weak on the side of the board, and since these transistors conduct a substantial current they should have a real good solidly formed connection. A resistive connection will heat up during conduction and cause failure to the joint or even burn the board.

Q77 is sitting a little higher from what I see, could be due to being replaced. Q75 middle leg fillet area looks a little dark in the pic. Again, really hard to make out details in this pic and have no idea what the board looks like on the reverse side.

At minimum checking the transistors and those connections for continuity should be done. Another option is to just remove those transistors clean the plated through hole joints and resolder all new transistors so there is no doubt (or very little). The removed transistors can be tested and good ones found can be saved as "emergency" spares. See the section "Transistor Testing procedures, circuit board out of the game." on this guide:
http://hansbalk.home.xs4all.nl/rep/sys11/index1.htm

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