F14 snubber board resistor value

(Topic ID: 65875)

F14 snubber board resistor value


By chipleader

5 years ago



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  • 39 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by KenLayton
  • Topic is favorited by 12 Pinsiders

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There have been 17 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

pin repair 1 (resized).jpg
Williams F-14 Tomcat AC-Solenoid Circuit.pdf (PDF preview)
snubber3 (resized).jpg
snubber1 (resized).jpg
577e4d57faafcbc0ef419436fb39a2467130f3c3 (resized).png
96c2bdd0aa873eb4ffb6826d59565128cb6abc2b (resized).jpg
sys11_1 (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
beacon-08 (resized).jpg
IMG_6567 (resized).JPG
F14 Snubber and other circuit info hi-res.jpg
F14 Snubber and other circuit info.jpg
F-14 manual page 28.JPG
C-11232-2.JPG
C-11232.JPG
C-11232-2 relay board.jpg

#1 5 years ago

Picked up an F14 last weekend, when I was checking it out, I noticed that the resistor on all the snubber boards (C-11232) were fried. Did some research and found out this was common on theses boards. Also found about a half dozen different values listed for the resistor on various forums. Looking for the correct value, or better yet what do you guys recommend upgrading it to.

#2 5 years ago
Quoted from chipleader:

Picked up an F14 last weekend, when I was checking it out, I noticed that the resistor on all the snubber boards (C-11232) were fried. Did some research and found out this was common on theses boards. Also found about a half dozen different values listed for the resistor on various forums. Looking for the correct value, or better yet what do you guys recommend upgrading it to.

You will not find the exact value, because there are too many opinions out there, same as there are too many boards out there with different resistors.

The peak voltage is stored over the diode into the capacitor and then slowly "disposed" by resistor R1. Therefore, the exact value is not so critical.

Only a "three-digit" ohms resistor makes sense.

Take a 150 Ohms / 2 Watt resitor

- Ingo

#3 5 years ago

I appears that there is a 150 Ohm resistor on the snubber board for on page 59 of the manual. However, Millionaire manual shows 100 Ohm. Isn't there only one snubber board for F-14?

Have you considering upgrading to the aftermarket snubber board? $25 + S&H at MAD Amusements

http://mad-amusements.com/product.php?id_product=1837

#4 5 years ago

Thanks Ingo.

Quoted from adalogue:

Isn't there only one snubber board for F-14?

No there are 6 of them, if it was only one I would probably get one of the aftermaket boards.

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from chipleader:

No there are 6 of them, if it was only one I would probably get one of the aftermaket boards.

Are all 6 of the snubber boards driven by Q7?

1 week later
#6 5 years ago

Does anyone have a link to a schematic for the snubber boards?

Seems like common consensus is 150 ohm 1 or 2 watt resistor.

What size capacitor is used? Seeing as this machine is 25 years old and the electrolytic capacitors are well past their useful life, I would like to replace them as well as the resistors.

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Does anyone have a link to a schematic for the snubber boards?
Seems like common consensus is 150 ohm 1 or 2 watt resistor.
What size capacitor is used? Seeing as this machine is 25 years old and the electrolytic capacitors are well past their useful life, I would like to replace them as well as the resistors.

The capacitor is 100uF/100V.

- Ingo

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Does anyone have a link to a schematic for the snubber boards?
Seems like common consensus is 150 ohm 1 or 2 watt resistor.
What size capacitor is used? Seeing as this machine is 25 years old and the electrolytic capacitors are well past their useful life, I would like to replace them as well as the resistors.

There is no schematic out there, if you need one, you wanna me draw one for you?

- Ingo

#9 5 years ago

Hey Ingo, I signed up for access to your German pinball site and was able to download the schematic they have up there. Thanks for the link!

An additional question: Why do some snubber boards have 100 uf caps while others have 2.2 uf caps? In my F-14, 3 are 100uf and 3 are 2.2 uf while others have no caps...

#10 5 years ago

Williams made 3 versions of that relay board.
Relay snubber board C-11232 and C11232-2
Relay Board C-11232-1

There are pics of all three here in this post I started a while back, trying to find the value cap and resistor on the C-11232-2 board.
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-relay-question

Maybe you have a mix of the two different snubber boards.

#11 5 years ago

I have one C-11232-1 under my F-14 playfield without caps (relay board). The rest of the boards are labeled C-11232 and have mixed caps....

#12 5 years ago

Here are pictures of the C-11232-1 and C-11232-2 boards.

C-11232-1 Relay board.jpg C-11232-2 relay board.jpg
#13 5 years ago

Do you guys know the value of the capacitor on the C-11232-2 relay?
Both of those relays in pics are on a Pinbot, for the visor motor. I have an intermittent problem on my Pinbot when the visor motor shuts off, it locks up the machine. I want to convert my C-11232-1 relay to a C-11232-2, I think that this will stop my lock up problem.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Hey Ingo, I signed up for access to your German pinball site and was able to download the schematic they have up there. Thanks for the link!
An additional question: Why do some snubber boards have 100 uf caps while others have 2.2 uf caps? In my F-14, 3 are 100uf and 3 are 2.2 uf while others have no caps...

Oops, now I remember, that a great expert in our german forum made a schematic.

But you must read his excellent explainations:

"... When WMS designed their boards, at this time, they used as a switching transistor for coils only the transistor-type TIP122.

For power-coils, that operate with +50V, this transistor is too weak. Therefore they set a relay between, which is switched on by the TIP122. Then the current for the power coil flows over the working contacts of the relay.

The 3 components in paralell to the working contacts of the relay (obviously D2, R1 and C1) are probably used to serve as a spark supressor, a more adventurous and not just cheap approach.

Later these 3 compontents were let off and replaced with a spark suppressor capacitor.

And still later, WMS introduced the AUX-Power-Driver-Board, that was equipped with powerful transistors of the type TIP36C for switching the power coils, so that the relay boards were no longer necessary for this purpose. ..."

When I now see the different pictures, I am a bit confused. In the fotos showing C-11232-1, there are no components for spark supression, what makes absoluty no sense to my opinion, mightbe, someone desoldered this components for what reason ever.

To my opinion, the boards C-11232 and C-11232-1 are identical.

Im am unsure, what the exact value of C1 in version C-11232-2 is, I suppose, it is a 0,1uF 100V ceramic disk capacitor, mightbe some can verify this.

I made 2 grafics, that are attached, so that we have the schematics finally documented for the eternity . I will update them, when we have the correct values.

- Ingo

C-11232.JPG

C-11232-2.JPG

#15 5 years ago

In the F-14 manual on page 28 is sort of a schematic of the board.

F-14 manual page 28.JPG
#16 5 years ago

Ingo,

You have that mixed up...

C-11232 - has a resistor and capacitor on the board. I have 2 different versions of this same part number in my early F-14. One version has the 100uf/100v cap and an unknown 1/2 watt resistor (might be a 1/4 watt, can't tell for sure because they are all burned up) and the other has a 2.2uf/250v cap and a 150 ohm 1/4 or 1/2 watt resistor that are not burned. Both boards have the same part number. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason around which capacitor size is used for which function. For example, one of the center ball ejectors has a snubber with a 100uf and the other has a snubber with a 2.2uf.

C-11232-1 - is the one without a resistor and without a capacitor and is called a Relay Board. In the F-14 one is in the backbox and is used to switch on/off the GI and another is used to switch between the A and C solenoids (the circuit Ken references above).

C-11232-2 - I do not have any of these in my F-14, must have been used in other machines.

The thing I don't get is why Williams simply didn't use lower voltage coils on all the solenoids as opposed to putting these relays/snubbers everywhere. They could have used 50 volts for the flippers (switched with switches, not solenoid outputs) and had all the transistor controlled coils run on 28v.

3 weeks later
#17 5 years ago

Look what I found in the papers that came with my F-14...

According to this document, 11232-2 does not have D2, the capacitor value is .1 uf and the resistor is zero ohms...

It does not list the value of the resistor or capacitor on the regular 11232 Snubber board (which I believe are .2 uf or 100uf and 150 ohm)

[attachment=1253490,]
#18 5 years ago

Nice find Schwaggs. I've been trying to find out this info for over a year.

Two weeks ago I went with Ingo's guess on the capacitor of .1uf, installed that and a jumper for the resistor to change my 11232-1 into a 11232-2 on my pinbot visor motor. So far no lockups. Hopefully that solves the problem.

Schwaggs, the attachment didn't load here or the other thread you tried to download it. Can you try again?

Ingo and Schwaggs, thanks for your help with this.

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from chipleader:

Nice find Schwaggs. I've been trying to find out this info for over a year.
Two weeks ago I went with Ingo's guess on the capacitor of .1uf, installed that and a jumper for the resistor to change my 11232-1 into a 11232-2 on my pinbot visor motor. So far no lockups. Hopefully that solves the problem.
Schwaggs, the attachment didn't load here or the other thread you tried to download it. Can you try again?
Ingo and Schwaggs, thanks for your help with this.

Thanks for the feedback. NETHERTHELESS - Swaggs inputs are correct - I am confused now

- Ingo

#20 5 years ago

Sorry the attachment didn't appear, pinside does not like my .pdf files. This is the F14 snubber and other special circuits page I found in .jpg format.

F14 Snubber and other circuit info.jpg
#21 5 years ago

I just realized that the scaled down version of the schematics is hard to read... Here it is in high resolution (1MB file):

F14 Snubber and other circuit info hi-res.jpg
1 week later
#22 5 years ago

I am new to the forum and clearly not as good with electronics as you all. I have had an f-14 for a few years and the center left eject solenoid has stopped firing. The solenoid appears good. How do I test the snubber board? What else could it be? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. -marty

3 weeks later
#23 5 years ago

All this information should be put on the PinWiki.
Along with schematics and the use for every board in the right location.

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from motomarty:

I am new to the forum and clearly not as good with electronics as you all. I have had an f-14 for a few years and the center left eject solenoid has stopped firing. The solenoid appears good. How do I test the snubber board? What else could it be? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. -marty

First try the exchange the coil and see if this works.
Next exchange the snubber board with one you know works.

#25 5 years ago

I just confirmed the burned resistors on my C-11232 snubber board were 150 ohm (I measured the burned resistors I replaced them with 2 watt flame proof resistors installed 1/4" above the circuit board).

So the correct values are:

C-11232 (Relay Snubber Board)
C1 = 100 uf 100v, R1 = 150 ohms
or
C1 = 2.2 uf 250v, R1 = 150 ohms.

C-11232-1 (Relay Board)
C1, R1 and D2 omitted.

C-11232-2 (Relay Snubber Board)
C1 = 0.1 uf, R1 = 0 ohms, D2 omitted.

1 year later
#26 3 years ago

Just A noob question, can i just power up the coils without the snubber boards?...will they work just as well?

#27 3 years ago

Without a snubber board, the coil will not work.
Look up in this tread....

"... When WMS designed their boards, at this time, they used as a switching transistor for coils only the transistor-type TIP122.

For power-coils, that operate with +50V, this transistor is too weak. Therefore they set a relay between, which is switched on by the TIP122. Then the current for the power coil flows over the working contacts of the relay.

The 3 components in paralell to the working contacts of the relay (obviously D2, R1 and C1) are probably used to serve as a spark supressor, a more adventurous and not just cheap approach.

Later these 3 compontents were let off and replaced with a spark suppressor capacitor.

And still later, WMS introduced the AUX-Power-Driver-Board, that was equipped with powerful transistors of the type TIP36C for switching the power coils, so that the relay boards were no longer necessary for this purpose. ..."

When I now see the different pictures, I am a bit confused. In the fotos showing C-11232-1, there are no components for spark supression, what makes absoluty no sense to my opinion, mightbe, someone desoldered this components for what reason ever.

To my opinion, the boards C-11232 and C-11232-1 are identical.

Im am unsure, what the exact value of C1 in version C-11232-2 is, I suppose, it is a 0,1uF 100V ceramic disk capacitor, mightbe some can verify this.

I made 2 grafics, that are attached, so that we have the schematics finally documented for the eternity . I will update them, when we have the correct values.

- Ingo

2 years later
#28 1 year ago

Sorry to revive this old thread but I'm having issue with my snubber board on Pinbot. My ramp UP coil is acting up on game start and I can hear the relay clicking every time it fires.

My capacitor get super hot and starts to leak within 5 minutes. I replaced the capacitor with same result. What could be wrong for the capacitor to fail like that? Could it be the relay that have failed. It's been replaced in it's life.

About the capacitor, would I have more luck with the 2.2uf/250v than the 100uf/100v?

About that relay, what would be the correct replacement for the original?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-ramp-up-firing-constantly-at-game-start

IMG_6567 (resized).JPG

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from chipleader:

, trying to find the value cap and resistor on the C-11232-2 board.

C1 is 0.1 ufd, R1 is 0 ohms, when specificially used as a C-11232-2 board.

beacon-08 (resized).jpg

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Sorry to revive this old thread but I'm having issue with my snubber board on Pinbot. My ramp UP coil is acting up on game start and I can hear the relay clicking every time it fires.
My capacitor get super hot and starts to leak within 5 minutes. I replaced the capacitor with same result. What could be wrong for the capacitor to fail like that? Could it be the relay that have failed. It's been replaced in it's life.
About the capacitor, would I have more luck with the 2.2uf/250v than the 100uf/100v?
About that relay, what would be the correct replacement for the original?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinbot-ramp-up-firing-constantly-at-game-start

Most likely cause of an electrolytic capacitor getting hot and leaking is reverse voltage across it. Are you sure the wires haven't been switched and that the cap is installed in the proper polarity?

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

Most likely cause of an electrolytic capacitor getting hot and leaking is reverse voltage across it. Are you sure the wires haven't been switched and that the cap is installed in the properly polarity?

Yes I'm positive

pasted_image (resized).png

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Yes I'm positive

This is the wrong application of this board. As an A/C relay board, you are putting positive voltage on the negative side of the cap. There is no cap installed on the A/C relay, just a relay and diode.

sys11_1 (resized).jpg

96c2bdd0aa873eb4ffb6826d59565128cb6abc2b (resized).jpg

577e4d57faafcbc0ef419436fb39a2467130f3c3 (resized).png

5 months later
#33 11 months ago

Sorry to bring this thread back to life, but I really need help here to bring my F-14 back to life. I was off topic somewhere else so let me throw this out for comment. Two types of snubbers used on F-14. C-11232 and C-11232-1. Going to rebuild all snubbers as resistors fried on two of the C-11232 boards. Found two C-11232 boards with no resistors, but heat marks on the board showed one was there.

Here is my recap of the whole thing. All C-11232 boards HAD resistors, so this is a problem. Two burned resistors on two different C-11232 boards is a problem.

Here is my parts list: 2, 1N4004 diodes
1, 150 ohm 1/4 watt resistor, what about 1/2 watt?
1, 100uF / 100volt capacitor
not going to replace the relay, should I? Has anyone had a problem with the relay?
This is for the C-11232 board.

The C-11232-1 just has a 1N4004 diode and relay. I'm going to replace the diodes on these.

I'll post some pictures here. Any help or comment would be great, Thanks.

snubber1 (resized).jpg

snubber3 (resized).jpg

#34 11 months ago

I think every one of the resistors was burnt on the game I have, I replaced them all with 1/2 watts as a safety net though I have no idea what caused them to burn in the first place. The game worked fine without them though. I wouldn't replace the relays unless you have one that doesn't work.

#35 11 months ago

I think the 1/2 watt resistors would be a good idea. Not going to worry about the relays unless I have too. Found some 3000hrs, 100uF/100volt caps. Thinking of going with those.
Having other problems, but these need to be rebuilt before moving on.

#36 11 months ago

It all depends on what the snubber boards are used for.
In some cases all the parts are gone and one jumper added in place of the resistor.

Williams F-14 Tomcat AC-Solenoid Circuit.pdf

1 month later
#37 10 months ago

I haven't done anything yet. Had to walk away and regroup. I believe I overheated the caps. When I replaced them. Didn't use a heat sink so I'm going back and replace the caps. again, but making sure I don't overheat and use a heat sink. Also found bad resistors on some of the # C-11233 boards. Someone did a crap repair job here too. Having to repair someone else's crap repairs before moving has slowed things.

pin repair 1 (resized).jpg

2 months later
#38 8 months ago

The relay on these boards is Williams # 5580-09555-01 (Marco Specialties stocks it). Specs are 24vdc, 13 amp contacts, DPDT, PCB mounting terminals. This relay is also used on the Aux Power Driver boards.

It crosses to these other relays:

Guardian Electric # 1395 PVS-2C-24D

Potter & Brumfield # K10P-11D55-24

Omron # LY2-0-US-DC24

Mouser Electronics # 653-LY2-0-DC24

ECG # RLY2343P

NTE # R14-11D10-24P

#39 8 months ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

I think every one of the resistors was burnt on the game I have, I replaced them all with 1/2 watts as a safety net though I have no idea what caused them to burn in the first place. The game worked fine without them though. I wouldn't replace the relays unless you have one that doesn't work.

They burned because they were way under-powered for the job. I use a 2 watt rated resistor to replace the burnt ones.

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