Soon enough they'll be on par with JJP pricing.

At present JJP has what I would consider "collector pricing" and a lot of operators won't shoot that high for commercial locations, especially being able to get a Stern for much less (with 90% of laymen not giving a damn which brand it is or even knowing what is what), but as the gap thins it'll be interesting to see if more operators go towards Jersey Jack games.

There are a lot of Stern games lately that made me scratch my head whether I'd rather get that, or pay extra for a JJP... and that's WITH the 2020 price difference. With the "pay extra" bargaining chip slowly being removed on top of that, I forsee a lot of operators going for the JJPs no question if they get much closer in price. (Albeit the difficulties of them seeming to hold up on location)

Gary Stern has been all about the locations (to the point of some collector feeling insulted once... I remember reading a story about a crazy Stern collector who met Gary, all starry-eyed, excitedly told him how he spent like $50k on Stern games for his basement, and Gary shot back all deadpan with "But you're supporting the locations right?" He was pretty upset. Haha, poor guy.), but I hope he's being smart about not pricing out commercial locations especially with JJP being a thing.

For me the price difference is a pain in the ass but I'll still likely buy, I mean not like there's another option. If I were a home collector I would probably think the opposite, but alas. (And if the home collectors stopped licking so many boots, it wouldn't be where it's at... blood isn't on the operators hands. The number is kind of arbitrary when you make it all back) Pinball as a whole is all kind of nuts now. When looking to buy a AAA game to get the customers really riled up, it's either pay $9k for a 29 year old Addams Family or $7k for a brand new Stern... the brand new Stern still makes the most sense from both an excitement perspective and a reliability perspective, in a commercial setting. It's flashy, you don't have to be a pinhead to know its worth, and it's plug and play, so there's all of that. At least I feel somewhat sane paying that much for a brand new piece of hardware. I feel like some people are so absorbed in this they don't feel the irony of paying $9k for a 29 year old game.

As long as people keeping buy the price is going to go up and up. And that's that.

At the end of the day, people are buying.

I just wish they were more consistent. Led Zeppelin pro should have never left the factory, what an empty piece of junk. Anybody who bought that for $6000 should feel scammed.

Meanwhile you got great games like Jurassic Park and Avengers, clearly with tons of more parts and clearly with a much higher build cost, at the same price point. And don't even get me started on Beatles!

Stern is so hit and miss with not only the quality of their games but with how many parts on the playfield... surely the BOM (Bill Of Materials) is much different... yet... The Price Remains The Same!

That's an interesting take as "getting out while it's good" doesn't even cross my mind anymore because the pinball market is so secure. I kind of even forget about such a thing. Then again, I'm at no risk for it... I paid reasonably for everything and have a lot to gain and little to lose. I think we as collectors are all looking forward to the bubble bursting, rather than fearing it, but I've never thought of it that way and I'm sure there's lots who think about that sort of thing and do worry about it bursting because of what they paid for what they are sitting on. I don't really care if it does, but I bet the guys who paid full 2015-2021 price for a TZ or Addams do. Maybe it's because I don't really consider pinball an investment.

I see it a different way:

While you're selling to ensure you get good prices before the market crashes, I'm holding onto everything I got because I forsee this going on for a long time. Now, that sounds like it's an investment perspective, and it sure could be, BUT for me it's just from a supply perspective.

I'm not holding on to cash the damn things out at some peak and try and squeeze every last dollar out of them, I'm just holding on to keep them.

My concern lies more with "If I want to buy this title again in 2 years, will it be twice the price?", rather than cashing out while it's hot. I'm more worried about availability and sanity of prices than the cash. I don't sell anything because of how absurd it'll probably be to get another one back again next year or even next month, if I feel so inclined.

Meanwhile I'm sure there's guys that are selling while the market is hot, and those places their bets oppositely and holding onto games hoping it'll skyrocket more... some see an end and some see a beginning.

Me, I'm just trying to operate the damn things... I don't care what they're worth besides what I paid for them (waaaaaaaaay out of the ballpark of that now over the years) and I don't think I've ever sat around and counted the dollar value of my collection (albeit it's one hell of a safety net having $100k+ of pinball and arcade games sitting around, with great insurance to boot to sleep good at night on). Anything I buy I intend to keep and make a living off of. I don't consider them an investment like that. Many see them as dollar signs (in both positive and negative ways - investments and liabilities), and I imagine that's quite hectic.

The "burst" is so far off IMO that I don't think most even worry about the market crashing, they're more worried about it NOT crashing. Kind of funny and opposite from everything else in the world.

I'm glad I'm not a pinball "investor" collector... I couldn't imagine the stress of sitting on games and wondering if you should keep or sell. Nowadays it's a gamble of selling too early and the game triples in price in the next year, vs. selling too late and the bubble burst. What a conundrum!

I say just buy a DMD game for $2500, expect to get $2500 out of it and anything extra is a bonus, and call it a day. Too many people worried about getting $9000 for a game they paid $1500 for and acting like it's the end of the world if they don't get it... hey, you only paid $1500 for the thing... that's all you're in the red for... I say as long as you got what you paid for it, why complain? (It's greed)

Thanks for the nice discussion and your point is a very interesting one.

There's three guys in a room:

Guy A bought a Twilight Zone for $1,000 and expects $1,000 out of it.

Guy B bought a Twilight Zone for $1,000 and expects $8,000 out of it.

Guy C bought a Twilight Zone for $8,000 and expects $8,000 out of it.

Guy A wins (and sleeps the best at night) whether the market continues to skyrocket, or crashes. I'd say Guy C is the only one at risk, and Guy B is just being a greedy bitch that can't really suffer a loss or a risk rather than one that is perceived, rather than an actual loss considering he only paid a grand for the thing.

If this hobby focused more on "getting what I paid for it" rather than "value" we'd have a lovely pool of games and a stagnant pricing for everything, but alas that's not the way the world turns.

This is more focused on the used games but all in all it all affects new game pricing as well

Guy D wasn't in the room because Guy B said he was firm on his $30 offer to repin the entire set of boards because the game "is old" meanwhile has it listed for $9k

Tons of distributors still sitting on Beatles stock, first run LZ stock, TMNT stock, etc.

There's a lot of stuff that sells in minutes and a lot of stuff that doesn't sell... ever.

I'm surprised they feel consistent enough to warrant an increase. The success of Jurassic Park probably got them all excited

I know the Beatles overstock is driving them all nuts

I didn't mean they were all buying the same TZ. The problem is mainly in Guy B, albeit I was just making a general point towards the previous poster I was having a discussion with.

On one hand you could blame Guy B, but one the other hand you would be blaming him for asking a price that is selling/doable and on-market. It's a seller AND a buyer thang.

People and companies listing games for extreme prices -> other people fulfilling said prices -> voila here we are, and counting

Supply and demand is occurring. Two parties responsible. However the only one that can really stop it would be the buyers, because god knows the sellers won't (naturally. It would take a thousand sellers underpricing games for no reason and shooting themselves selflessly in feet big time to cause a revolution, it's impossible. Buyers can do it though...)

Pinballs.com has them listed as in stock and they usually keep it pretty up to date

***** THIS JUST IN *****

Gary was seen spotted participating in the Banning auction recently, hence the price change going forward.

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Almost makes you wonder if it was intentional and they inserted a convenient little pause in there.

Actually, I'm sure it was... I'm sure they knew what they were doing by retroactively raising the prices for models previously priced lowers... orders all over the place... they knew what they were doing. Especially to the people already in queue for getting one. They are going to bank big on that: the fish that are already hooked.

True shit. Like I said in an earlier post, I wouldn't be surprised if operators and collectors both lean towards JJP more now that the prices are so close. You get way more hardware and pizazz for your buck in a JJP, and while Sterns are great (and there are certain Sterns I would take over certain JJP games regardless of price anyways, such as Jurassic Park), I'm sure there's a lot of times when collectors went with a Stern instead of a JJP due to the price alone as their final decision-making factor. If you're undecided, that price difference was a big bargaining chip that made the answer a bit clearer and weighted heavily towards Stern... now gone.

If JJP is smart, they wouldn't do an increase and reap the benefits of Stern's silly decision. The closer that price gap is, is more sales for JJP. And lucky for them, they didn't have to stoop down... Stern rose up for them. Business as usual for JJP, as Stern made the change. The gap narrows...

"It's only $500 more..." is a lot more convincing than "It's $2,000-$3,000 more...", which is dangerous for Stern. The price gap was Stern's handicap to keep the playing field level as can be and I'm surprised they didn't realize that.

I actually tend to like well-made Stern better than a well-made JJP (each has their gems and turds, but let's say a gem vs. a gem for precisely fair comparison) just based off of design, flow, artwork, and the flipper mechs, but there's no denying that a JJP bill-of-materials is above what Stern puts into their games. I believe that is what PanzerFreak is trying to say as well in his statement.

That's not an opinion, that's a fact you can prove. I believe that's what he was trying to say. They very clearly dump way more money into them at JJP than they do at Stern. Doesn't matter if the game is better or not. That's besides the point. Singlehandedly only speaking about the numbers, JJP puts more stuff into their games. Again, not an opinion... if you could acquire the bill of materials for each of the last 5 games from both I'm sure this would ring true as fact and not be up for discussion. "Fun factor" and whatever else totally aside, the guy is speaking facts about facts.

I'm also glad JJP pushed Stern to do LCDs. The fact that LCDs weren't done in like 2003 is kind of laughable. Stern was 14 years late to the party in 2017. The technology existed way back in the early 2000's and it's all quite simple.

I have a feeling if it weren't for JJP we still be doing DMDs in Stern games. It's really a miracle they lasted as long as they did, especially into the late 2010's... surely driven by the monopoly and lack of any competition.

Driving an LCD was doable by 2003. And with the basic graphics they had in Batman and Aerosmith, that was doable back then too. Now Stern seems to finally have its feet wet with utilizing the screen to its full potential, but at first it was kind of rudimentary and all basic 2D graphics. (Batman and Aerosmith, etc.)

That could have been accounted for, but add a few years for padding if it makes you feel better and push it to the mid-2000s. At the most extreme least possible, by 2009-2010 there are no more excuses and everything was LCD-a-plenty by then. Every house had a widescreen LCD for their computer, a modern flatscreen LCD for their TV, the things were modern, and practically all hardware on Earth had switch to LCDs. Even car stereos switched to LCD around that time or earlier. The fact that it took 7 years after 2010 is laughable.

The only people buying DMDs after the mid-2000s was probably Stern and the NYC subway system replacing their ancient technology instead of updating them lol

Such a shame because I feel like Ghostbusters would have been a home run with an LCD. Now I can't even play the dang thing, having gotten a taste of pinball with LCDs. It looks 15 years older now, and it surely shows that way on location too. Put a 2016 Ghostbusters next to a 2017 Stern and it's a big change.

As soon as the LCD dropped, they aged the prior set of games ahead of it by 10+ years. That would've been less painful in the 2000s than in the 2010s where a 2016 game is made to look ancient. Old tech the day they rolled out of the factory, it just took a few years for it to be "shown up" and immediately date them all (they already were dated, but nobody realized before then.)

I believe you could find 20 2D animators and 20 3D modelers (having experience in said things, they're all over the place) per 1 dot-matrix animator. You really think it's the other way around?

Perhaps Stern probably just already had the dot-matrix people and was nervous to rock the boat, but 2D animators and 3D modelers are both one of those jobs where the people are plentifully basically begging for work.

Now that they're doing 3D-modeled graphics (thankfully) which they weren't doing in the earliest games like Aerosmith, obviously that requires yet another set of skills and hands, albeit it seems they are going totally 2D animation or totally 3D animations (GUI always being 2D obviously) so never "both".

I'd assume it would be way easier and more cost efficient to find a 2D artist or a 3D modeler than some of the dot matrix stuff they were doing, let alone the time it takes.

Additionally, it seems like most of these people also tend to work alone or with a small group.

The animation is the easy part and basically the cherry on top of the total game. I wouldn't be surprised if a single skilled animator could crank out all the animations in a game in a week to three weeks. It's not really that big of an undertaking.

I'm sure dot matrix animation is a way more complicated process than an artist drawing freehand on a tablet and creating different frames of animation (particularly easy in the digital age now that we have virtual tablets, and can save and erase to create minor changes for animation), or a 3D modeler crafting things up in Blender.

Add pre-recorded pre-existing live action footage (where permitted) that couldn't be done before, with no work whatsoever, to fill in the gaps like The Beatles, and you have a big time and work advantage actually.

Shows like South Park make an episode a week because all of the assets are computerized and the animation is standardized.

Once you get the characters and worlds 3D modeled, it's smooth sailing from there.

South Park is animated more like 3D than 2D as well in a program called Maya, and takes any of the drawing out of it.

With the aesthetics on certain Stern games in the 2D era, I assume this route may be used as well... albeit not in all cases. It's definitely a streamlined process.

I would consider the amount of animations in a pinball machine to be quite small as well. Very repetitive.

I was extremely impressed with how they've come from Aerosmith (2D) to Jurassic Park (3D). The 3D-modeled atmosphere was a great touch and something that should've been done from the first place. I guess they're still grasping the capabilities of the LCD.

You could really tell in the early games that lacked any kind of 3D animation, but looks like they are improving a few years down the road now.

I figured they'd just convert certain videos to dots (and meant to include that in my reply), albeit the results sometimes were a bit odd. It's certainly an easy way to do things, but it got even easier now... now they just dump the real footage in completely untouched. I guess it depends if the license really has stipulations that differ between converted movie footage and just the footage itself in the end, but in the end everything is so much easier on LCD physically - speaking literally rather than how much of a PITA the licensors make it.

I really feel like the 2017-era 2D animations were probably all done by the same dude, and the more recent 3D animations are probably done either by one dude or a very small team.

I'm not saying it isn't time consuming, I'm just saying it's probably as time consuming (or lack thereof) as DMD animation. Just gotta teach or replace the people. 2D animations are insanely plentiful in the world, and albeit 3D modelers and animations are slightly more niche, it's not by much.

Yes, I took that into account:

Also, just one South Park episode is 30 minutes, a Stern pinball machine probably has 3-4 minutes overall, tops?

Yep, it's the same vein of Stern using real pictures for pinball artwork in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Thankfully they went back to the drawn style. Lots of Pinside threads were had over the "cookie cutter" artwork from that period.

On that note, I really like the stock JP code & amimations, not sure why the movie code is such a hit - feels so tacky and fake too. To each their own I guess. Like you, I'd rather have new animations than old real footage. And that's a mod... when they do it officially it's even more of a shame. Easy way out I suppose.

I don't think I've ever loved a game as much as I love my Jurassic Park and it also makes bank like no other lol

Stern animations could definitely be a little more polished as they look a little 2002 themselves at times but they're definitely heading in the right direction and getting better and better at using the technology.

Can't say enough great things about JP though

Now I just scratch my head about why they didn't do perhaps the most simple change ever, create a simple front-end to not still make the operator menu an emulated DMD screen, but whatever Probably has as much to do with operator familiarity as it does with Stern just employing that "If it ain't broke" attitude. Always found that to be odd and hope eventually they utilize the damn screen fully

Thanks for the interesting discussion

Most importantly, the guy at Sega who made the little DMD icons for the operator menu better be getting royalty checks from Stern! (I kid, I kid.) 20+ years of service!

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Lol. The whole thing needs replaced of course, but it's funny to see how exact it still is from day 1.

Even the "fire knocker" icon still has a plunger...
not only does the 2021-built game not have a real knocker, neither does the 1999 one. Both digital.

So many levels deep in the outdated wormhole

Went to go buy a TMNT Pro as I know Mike at Automated (pinballs.com) has a bunch overstock as most do, but the price is the new price (in 2021??????) despite the game being released a year prior. I was barely a taker at the regular price and not super feeling the game, so especially not buying now.

(Not a big fan of the game but finally warmed up to the idea that the theme would probably absolutely kill on location like my Turtles arcade game does, and is the most polished of the turds Stern is releasing lately)

If anybody finds a distributor still at the real price let me know please

What a crock of s*** that Stern is retroactively applying the price increase under the guise of their s***ty connect system, even to games that were lukewarm at the normal price ala LZ, Beatles, TMNT, Stranger Things, and more.

It must suck for the distributors having to increase the price on a stack of games collecting dust from already not being able to sell at the lower price

Same thing. I could've sworn they had stock but I guess not? (EDIT: They are in stock)

Cointaker is doing TMNT pro pre-orders at the $6600 price point

10/30/2021

Last time I checked it was the $5,999 price

All other distributors I found have increased as well. Blaaaaaaaaah

Guess this is the ripple effect from the price increase & matching competition

Well that really sucks

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Yeah that makes sense but even the places with them in stock (2021 and prior stock) have increased. Sad but that is business I suppose

Your random uncalled for off-topic insults for some 5+ year old grudge are lame as is but they are even worse when you have so little material that a kindergartener could do better

Get a life you are boring me Imagine following somebody around on Pinside to downvotes posts and post stupid replies lmao

Same goes for your [Removed] buddy @electrocute. Y'all got me laughing.
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It'll be so exciting when it crashes because of how much more appreciation the games get now. Here's hoping one day one can get a TAF for $2500 while remembering the times they were $10000, with the appreciation of them being that same $10000

There's no maximum SRP so naturally any of the distributors with stock left have upped the price already it seems as of this week, as you would pay $600 less and get it instantly if they hadn't, instead of $600 more for a game at a competitor and have to wait 6 months. It would be a great sales tatic to use that to fuel sales as you are the cheaper option but I guess they don't have much stock left and would rather take all they can get (that's business I suppose)

Anywhere I'm seeing with older Stern stock has already upped the price (even without insider connect kits)

I don't think this was a Stern directive, just the ability to price gouge now that this is the direction things are going

I'm 23 and look forward to the days of $100 Addams Family machines albeit a bit depressing with the entire community gone and all the parts creators out of business. But I'll have one hell of a basement!

Pinballing is going be frickin' weird in a few decades... sort of like the 90's again I presume, except even less desirable.

I find it more depressing than gratifying though... I'd much rather an active community than ample amount of cheap games to buy.

I'm well aware in the next 30 years, but I'm talking extremely long term (40-50 years) about when I'm the age of most people in the EM section here, the community is dead figuratively and literally, and pinballs are like Hummels most of your grandkids are trying to get out of the garage most via sledgehammer.

Pinball in 50 years is going to be extremely dystopian. I pray that's not the reality but I don't see my generation picking it up let alone the next ones... and that's questioning playing on location, let alone owning. I think location play will still be a thing but dedicated collectors may be a stretch by that point

50 years from now I will be 73 and I would be entirely surprised if an Addams Family pinball machine (79 years old then) has any value let alone a skyrocketed one

It'll be me, @mbaumle, and @MisterMoberg saving 50 CFTBLs from going to the junkyard and having a beer in your honor Levi. Calling it right now.

(I'm going to stop now before I throw myself into an existential crisis. Pinball in 50 years sure may be lonely. DEPRESSING)

I guess so, but it's pre-war pins level of "antique" collectors comparatively. Those things were worth some good money before that community died off (literally) and now they have value to anybody who can appreciate them but it is few and far between. Antique collectors are way more into them then genuine pinball guys, but the pinball guys are what keep the hobby and numbers alive.

Plus there are several thousand TAF floating around so they won't be worth anything from a "rare antique" perspective, just a pinball perspective

Made 20 grand this month, figured I deserved to treat myself to a little poking of Electrocute and DadOfTwins... a little R&R relaxation. Nobody else is bothered but you children