Just out of curiousity as I have not purchased a NIB in a year and a half, what are the current prices for:

In stock pro and premiums?
This year build games?
Next year I have figured are $7,000 for pros.

Current in stock titles could be anything. Depends on the distro.

Next year all pros newly produced will be 7k

All premiums 9k

All LEs 10.5k

I see a lot of references here saying location pinball is an option if new pricing has closed the home market for some.

I’m an old operator and recently have been working up a plan to open a large location. These prices are making me think location pinball is not doable for anybody who doesn’t already own the equipment. Even current operators have to be contemplating shutting down operations because the return on investment keeps taking longer to achieve on new equipment. Operating pins requires new equipment coming in or the location gets stagnant.

In short, if people think there will always be an option for location pinball, think again. Operators have to do more than break even.

I'm just wondering at what point the operators will be priced out of the games? You figure a 50% split with the location and a Pro would need to be played about 14,000 times just for them to break even. That doesn't even include the labor to keep it running when something breaks and the cost to shop it out. You aren't going to get 14,000 plays out of it without shopping it that's for sure.

I realize that some of them sell before break even, but still. At what point do they just decide to put in a claw machine or some other redemption machine?

Comparing prices in US & UK

Average salary in US = $53,500
Price of Pro in US = $7,000

It takes 48 days for someone on average salary to be able to afford a Pro in the US

Average salary in UK =£29,600
Price of Pro in UK = £7,100

It takes 88 days for someone on average salary to be able to afford a Pro in the UK

Obviously that's before tax and other expenses such as rent, electricity, food, etc. are even taken in to account.

Its one thing if the game isn't earning, but if it earns, how is the math different when NIB prices were lower? The initial outlay of course is larger, but if residual value is the same, does the math really change? You route the game for 2 years, take in $x, which hopefully is unchanged (or maybe higher) from previous titles. You then decide to sell the game. All that should matter is whether that residual value has changed for the worse. Seems as though residual value has been rising so you could potentially route a game for 2 years, earn from it and then sell it at the price you paid for NIB or close to it.

are you a robot? do you take shelter under a bridge? lol

what kind of mathematical equation is this?

lol now seriously, I make a lot more than that, and I can't save this in 48 days...

If you want all the workings out I can do so, but seeing as you don't appreciate that a new sentence starts with a capital letter, I'm not sure that you'd be able to follow.

Yep. I'm not gonna buy a pin now unless it has a theme I love, not like or maybe can grow to appreciate but know I must have it, with gameplay to match of course.

please, illuminate us with your mathematical skills from your mom's basement.

A JJP LE is not a Stern premium, no way, not even close. Compare a JJP LE to a Stern LE, that's the more fair comparison and now it's more accurate the ever considering the prices of each are nearly identical. Either way prices are insane from both companies.

JJP Standard - Stern Premium
JJP LE - Stern LE
JJP CE - Stern SLE (super limited and signature editions)

A 2 year routed game does not sell for the same as the HUO game that has 100 plays after 2 years. Especially with assholes death saving and rage tilting because they think pinball machines are public property. New Sterns today are averaging $1 per play and often $2/3 plays. Thats $0.67 per game with the bonus credit. I was paying under $6k for a pro just over a year ago. Now over $7k. Price per play has not changed yet.... But I am starting to hear chatter from other locations.

Breaking even in business is not worth it. Not even close.

What is the ceiling for throwing quarters into the machines on location before people stop coming in to our places?

Its sad because the quality of these Stern machines is getting so bad. The new service button assemblies feel like dollar store plastic and don't work half the time. A real nuisance for us operators who need them often. Investing in buckets of coil stops and other basic parts that break prematurely ads to the cost as well.

But... You have to always have the new stuff. Customers want the new.

There's a grammar mathematics war happening, might be the first.

Sure they do, but they would include the most important feature, fun and that's where all the extras in a JJP can't save it from taking second place. Comparing pins based on BOM doesn't matter at all. I'll take the more open concept pin that's fun and fast over a pretentious over loaded borefest anyday. Man it took way too long to bring the Stern vs JJP aspect into this thread but Panzer never fails to deliver. Kudos to u sir and Kudos again. Now wheres Romulick other men's balls. Shouldn't be long before he chimes in. JJP fanboys, God Love Em.

Prices have been going up and people complaining for as long as I have been in the hobby. You honestly expect prices to never change? Prices are rising on just about everything. It sucks but at least with pinball you don't have to buy.

for me the complaint is the cost to quality. If quality goes down and price goes up thats a problem. If cost goes up and quality stays quality, then fine. Also, as a location I for one do need to buy the new equipment or become obsolete.

The comparison is still valid, the 3 tier pricing structure is meant to drive buyers towards the option in the middle. It has worked for Apple for more than 12 years now. Nobody wants the base car, they want the next thing but typically can't afford the fully loaded sort of mentality. One for every budget but with the intention of selling the middle 80% of the time.
The difference being, Stern machines are built like crap and offer 0 value. Trick is, unfortunately, residual value is still too high even after the machine has been abused for a couple years.
The hobby is doomed but business are booming.

Stern is a Global Lifestyle Brand!

rich people's lifestyle only, soon.

Not to Rush fans. What’s $10k to Dave Grohl, Jack Black & Paul Rudd? It’ll sell out easy.

bullsheet.
I am in Florida and there are jobs. And people filling them and at no extra Wage an hour. Wages have not moved all that much in 10 years .
Sure it is the same in Chicago at Stern. Ask the employees if they got raises . And 1 dollar extra an hour would be allot
. Just because something sells at a price does not mean it was worth it.

Most electronics are expensive when it first comes out . like a 60 inch led tv . when first introduced it was like 2 grand for one.. Now you get 60 inch tv's for 500 dollars . So where is this Increase on this tech due to labor shortages and wage increases you alleged ?

Don’t kid yourself, always mostly was.

Operators are playing the same game we are these days.

The games are not a "sunk cost." They know what they are worth, and they know that if they route a game for 4 years and then decide to sell it, they'll get pretty close to what they originally paid for it. So I don't see this as an issue.

No idea what to make of this. In fact its a little disturbing. I was just commenting on the math/grammer debate. Not sure where the Stern machines are built like crap came from in regard to my post and really unaware of the "abused" pins after a couple years. My games look pretty much brand new cause there, u know in my home and maybe get played 500 to a thousand times before resale. In fact due to upgrades and bullet proofing in many ways they are in better shape than when I bought them NIB. Owned many many NIB Sterns with next to no issues. Anyway.

So if prices dropped more people would (may) buy new pins.

If more people buy new pins more pins are in the market and may come up for sale.

More pins coming up for sale as used would drop the price of pins.

Why would anyone who is into pins want the used price of pins to drop?

I am all for pinflation and I just really entered the hobbie.

You're not taking into account numerous factors, most importantly taxes and average cost of living. If after tax, medical, etc., a person loses around 30% of their income, and then a person has kids and has daycare expenses, or a mortgage, then affordability gets pretty grim pretty fast. I live in the DC area. Daycare per child runs between $2,000 - $3,000 per month. That is essentially all of the average wage earner's disposable income after tax.

Saving for a Pro last year was a challenge. My wife and I looked at the new price points for Godzilla and it became unobtainable. As cool as we think the machine looks, spending $9,000 on a premium is absurd. IMO, the price points should be about $5,000/$7,000/$9,000 for a three tier setup, but nobody cares what I think.

If you are saying game feature wise a Stern Premium is not equal to a JJP LE then yes….JJP seems to have more features. SLE is not the standard Stern tier structure. That’s targeted to specific themes they know people will pay more for.

JJP CE = Stern LE
JJP LE = Stern Premium
JJP Standard/Special edition= Stern Pro

JJP tried to keep all levels the same gameplay on past titles but now with GnR they have started to remove features as they did on the SE just like Stern does on a Pro model. I bet we see more of this on future JJP releases. Gotta give people a reason to want to step up to the LE. Before JJP would just create a new edition (WOZ RR/ Yellow Brick Road etc.) and charge more.

When AC/DC came out, it was like 4800/5800/6600 (street price, MSRP was a little higher)

For the hard of understanding.

$53,500 pa = $53,500/365 (days in a year) = $147 per day
$7,000 / $147 = 48 days

Hardly rocket science

It’s not great but I’m not mad at Stern. They are selling for what they can get.

Hell it’s a luxury item and most people don’t buy one. You can play on location for a dollar.

It reminds me about NFL where tickets are hundreds or thousands of dollars but I just watch on TV for free.

Every year there are about 7 new pinball machines released. In 4 years that is about 28. You think locations can keep all of their games around for 4 years so they can wait until the market on the title comes around to appreciating? Unless you are skipping many new titles, of course. I would imagine most of us are not earning back our return until we sell, and even then for the maintenance time, cost, moving around games to keep things fresh, and all the other headaches its hardly a return. Its a labor of love... Until you burn out. Then apparently you just hire the Captain to auction the remains and boom! Payout

we have entered the luxury item territory I think.

That's if you spend every penny you make on pinball and don't eat drive, feed and house your family, or pay taxes!

I don't disagree with you, but I didn't say prices of routed games would go for the same as HUO games, just what you paid NIB or close to it. HUO prices have been rising and often sell for more than NIB prices, particularly for games no longer being produced. Similarly, the price of a routed game also has been rising. If you bought a deadpool pro a couple of years ago, say for $5200, you should be able to sell it today routed for around $4500, maybe more if it's not beat to hell. If you bought a metallica pro, a routed game will now go for above what the NIB price was, assuming not beat to hell. If it is beat to hell, odds are you earned a lot from it. If you buy godzilla pro at $6800, what's the residual value after a couple of years?? $6000-6200?? If it's a lot less than $6000, the math would be changing against operators unless they can charge more per game.

I hear you on the quality and the need for constant repairs definitely would factor into the equation, particularly if things are getting worse.

certainly some truth... Title depending. Some titles that you think will slay turn out to be a turd and you hope to break even or you just run from it and take a loss.

Bottom line... Its a conundrum. One I am obviously willing to navigate. Pinball is fun. Pinball is hard. Pinball keeps us coming back.

The market determines the price. It's that easy. Cost, inflation and all of that is a red herring.... Stern's costs could be through the roof, but if every distributors was carry massive stock.. they wouldn't/couldn't be pushing a price increase. Demand is always the ruling factor.

I am still curious how this plays out going forward. Some distributors still have Led Zepplin Le's for sale. People might be willing to pay it for a new Elwin title.... but some of the other designers may not command the same premium.

This is honestly the concerning part of the whole thing. The people caught in the middle who are keeping the hobby alive through location play. It seems like the business model needs to be tweaked. There is clearly demand of playing games, but would people be willing to pay $3 for 2 games? Entry fees might solve part of the problem for bigger sites ($20 to enter - games are $0.25 to play - just to keep the walk aways in line). I dunno... but I suspect their is a business model that will work. People want to play... and ownership is getting pricey.

Just think:
Stern is no longer payrolling the 2 greatest pinball designers. Steve Ritchie, Coding Lyman Sheats. Saving $$
Just think:
You won't ever be getting a game designed by them ever again either, Negative $$
Best of luck Lifestyle Brand!

LE buyers should have been Sterns target!
They are the FLIPPERS!!
NO price increase for the PRO machines. And a bump for PREMIUMS of $300-$500 would be realistic.
They could make a killing on LE buyers
LEAVE us POOR pinheads ALONE!
Stay safe everyone

I agree. I don't care how many people talk about how great they have been treated. Support for me has been shit every time I tried.

Agreeing with OP of this thread.

Rush (if it comes to fruition) will be my last NIB as well. Still sitting on a NIB GnR I’m prolly gonna unload. Plenty of other games to get that are less expensive. I don’t care about insider connect thing, so I’d rather that be an optional item that would save me money on purchase price.

Peaked my curiosity. My NIB price history, all pro's shipped.

MET $4422 August 2013
ST $4595 March 2015
TWD $5095 August 2017
GOT $5395 July 2019
JP $5800 January 2021
GOTG $5600 August 2021

Dialed In STD $8000 June 2017 (didn't last long)

The model is to use pins as a loss leader the same way Costco uses chickens and hot dogs.

You lose money on the pins, you make huge money on: beer, soda, collectibles, services

well if stern things they can get golden tee like fees out of players / ops then things may go badly for them.

I blame Covid.

this is how I might have thought about it given that the LEs have sold out it seems. Raise the LEs more to keep the pro and premium more affordable.

This is beyond apple to oranges. This comparison is like apples to kangaroo. Even a car-gument would have been better here. Building a few thousand of each model pinball machine in the USA along with all the unique art, mechanisms and programming that goes along with it is a lot different than banging out millions of televisions at a factory in China or Korea.

These last 18 months have been absolutely crazy for industry, especially manufacturing, and it is surprising that some people have to have that pointed out to them. I've been waiting for six months for the Intel computer that I could have bought last year for 25% less and still waiting. I totally agree that price increases suck, but all in all I defy anyone here to actually prove that prices to produce these things at Stern have not increased at least as much as they have added to the retail pricing.

Anyone can phone in a lazy ass layout like led zeppelin. My kid made a cooler layout than that on cut up stern cardboard the other day. And it definitely wasn't trash from led zeppelin.we need to stop calling Steve the king, he was usurped long ago

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. There are lot of high end buyers that just want the most expensive model no matter what. That's why the LE's sell out so quickly and also why $1000+ toppers fly off the shelf. These buyers don't care what they are getting for their money, so much as they want to be able to brag about having the 'best' model. Charge $15k+ for the LE's and leave the Pro/Premium pricing where it's at. The LE's will still sell, imho.

FACT majority of pin buyers are not OPS they are home owners. Ops I know are going after cheaper games now, they really do earn about the same from my personal experience. Why pay double for a new stern as an op to fill a slot when a classic wpc can get you the same coin drop?

Stern KNOWS their buyers are mostly home owners.

Look at pinside and games owned by collectors, it doesnt come close to representing home collections. But I'm willing to bet that the location machines that are on pinside are close to full representation as any self respecting op puts their machines on here for free publicity.

It wouldn't surprise me on the next machine it has no coin mechs like MMr did.