Spicy
(Topic ID: 300400)
Kellogg, IA
Quoted from Gribbs:My point is that from previous experience here I KNOW: If I reply to a comment coming from a Liberal viewpoint with a Conservative concept, *I* will get my hand slapped by the moderators for 'NO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS'. The original comments do not seem to be a problem, however.
Where I'm from, greed and capitalism $$, is not exclusive to politics.
Quoted from John-Floyd:Painfully clear not many here have a clue on what it takes to survive and profit in MFG. the cost of all raw materials has risen steadily over the past few years. The cost of any outside services needed have risen as well. Not to mention the huge costs of employees - increased wages as well as huge increases in health care. Guarantee they are looking for line workers as well - the worker shortage is a huge problem right now. Times are tough when you now have to compete with Amazon at $18 an hr plus a $3,000 sign on bonus. Tough fight to get someone on an assembly line these days and that’s a fact across Chicagoland MFG. Nothing is cheap these days and you’d have to be completely naive or have your head burried in the sand as to expect pricing to remain the same in a luxury hobby like this during a 2 year pandemic. Sure I’m not thrilled with it but it is what it is. Welcome to reality.
People complaining about a luxury toy price increase while millions are struggling to keep a roof over their heads and their family fed…
So does that mean when prices go back down so do pin prices? That’s a solid nope.
When things return to normal, and they WILL, these hikes will be forever.
Quoted from Scandell:Meanwhile back at the batcave:
Our community is so “colorful”. Be careful who you deal with out there. Everybody looks like a chill fun person…until… [quoted image]
Scientists have had it all wrong! We don't nuclear power, just need HATRED!
As long as craft beer stays around $10 for a 6-pack, me and capitalism will stay on good terms.
Also WTF is up with all the new breweries? I just bought my month’s allotment of beer and there were like 10 new local breweries vying for my beer money. Competition is good I guess.
Man. There sure seems tobe a bunch of smart business people in here capable of opening pinball companies. Please do so and flood the market so prices fall. That be great.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Man. There sure seems tobe a bunch of smart business people in here capable of opening pinball companies. Please do so and flood the market so prices fall. That be great.
Nobody knows how to run Stern better than pinside.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Nobody knows how to run Stern better than pinside.
You’re welcome.
That is all.
This is going on in everything. As long as the government keeps giving out free money it creates artificial demand that wouldn't be there without the free government money. When this stops things will settle back a bit I think. Very bad time to buy pinball machines.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Nobody knows how to run Stern better than pinside.
We all come here for the wisdom you preach. Thank you again bud.
Quoted from ChadKeller:This is going on in everything. As long as the government keeps giving out free money it creates artificial demand that wouldn't be there without the free government money. When this stops things will settle back a bit I think. Very bad time to buy pinball machines.
get out of here with your logic and common sense.
People are trying to be pissed off. 
Seriously though, I cant remember a time in this hobby when people didnt bitch and moan about prices and I was around when things were legit cheap.
This was going on when original AFMs were going for 2-3k like that was brutal.
Quoted from ChadKeller:As long as the government keeps giving out free money
I’m telling you man, there are a lot of pissed off defense contractors and banks right now. “That was OUR money!”
In all seriousness, we’re lucky to have people loaning us money for next to nothing while we (the US) stack up debt we’ll never ever pay off.
Quoted from Elvishasleft:get out of here with your logic and common sense.
People are trying to be pissed off.
Seriously though, I cant remember a time in this hobby when people didnt bitch and moan about prices and I was around when things were legit cheap.
This was going on when original AFMs were going for 2-3k like that was brutal.
Yeah, I mean, obviously lack of memory is a covid long symptom, since the prices of pinballs have been going up up up long before COVID or stimulus. The poor majority of people getting stimulus aren't the ones buying pinball machines. Pure stupidity to continue to bring it up. This group really is out of touch with reality. Inflation was long overdue due to the strong hand being dealt to the fed long before COVID hit. So yes, with all the stimulus in addition to what was already stretched thin, we haven't even begun to feel the pain yet.
It will indeed be interesting to see what the actual breaking point is. My own ceiling is in my mind 10k, which is 8k more than I ever would have admitted to spending on one. I've never spent that much but was prepared to for Alien LV...but even that went up, and I just can't justify it.
Quoted from TheLaw:That shit menu is a disgrace
They've had more than enough time to update it
Whoa, hey, hey. Don't need to give them another reason to jack the price up another $800 or so on all models across the board.
Trollhättan
Quoted from NPO:You're kidding, right? Your banality would make me want to throw up on the person next to me (bonus points if you get the reference).
You do realize what I meant by this comment is it is an employee's market right now, right? Some people are realizing they don't have to put up with low wages and have options.
I´m truuly sorry to say this, but since the nineteen seventies most western countries has allowed for monetary means/assets to move freely over borders. The west has also completely forgot to protect from industrial spionage.
This means there will never again be an employees market. Ever......
Honestly speaking I don't understand why people are so bent out of shape. If you don't like the price don't buy the product. But let's be real most people complaining are going to be the first ones in line for the next game.
Melbourne
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Stern is taking people for a ride at these new insane prices. Regardless of whether or not people think Stern is better then JJP or vice versa it's clear which company has the greater cost per game and it's JJP. A Stern LE and JJP LE are now basically the same price. The JJP LE comes with significantly more hardware in it from the old Bally / Williams style lock down bar mech, the traditional head lock, and especially far more hardware in the head of the cabinet compared to a Stern. Open the backbox of a Stern and you will see a couple small boards, open a JJP backbox and you will 5x the amount of hardware. There's other items as well including the metal leg protectors, the entire head being made out of wood, boards being full RGB, etc. I won't even touch the coding aspect which I think is higher at JJP compared to Stern.
Again none of what I said means one companies games are better or more fun then the other but it's clear which company is making more profit per game at these latest prices. Did Stern raise prices because material cost are up? Sure, a bit but the real reason for such a large price increase is that they believe there's enough people to continue buying games at the higher price point.
Perhaps JJP will now raise prices from $10,500 to $11,500 after seeing what Stern did, then Stern will do the same in a year. The price increase madness will likely continue.
Exactly but you cannot help the stupid!
West Malling
In this thread, people who don’t understand the term “supply and demand”.
Also in this thread, people who don’t understand the difference between need and luxury.
It’s pathetic how much adult human energy is wasted on crying about toys.
Quoted from KingVidiot:In this thread, people who don’t understand the term “supply and demand”.
Also in this thread, people who don’t understand the difference between need and luxury.
It’s pathetic how much adult human energy is wasted on crying about toys.
On the other hand, if this move in the direction of less and less being able to play. To boot it will probably mean gaining new interested coming in to a complete standstill. Why wouldn`t that effect and bother all the people who likes the hobby?
Saying that it´s a luxury any way, is completely idiotic.
If you reason the same with everything, are you really happy with lifes only meaning is to put food on the table?
Quoted from NPO:Soon as my salary goes up roughly 15%, mid-year, due to inflation, I'll be square.
[quoted image]
This is why, you don't get it.
Quoted from underlord:So does that mean when prices go back down so do pin prices? That’s a solid nope.
When things return to normal, and they WILL, these hikes will be forever.
Things really could be normal already, but some people, don't want that. They feed on the fear and lies.
Quoted from Mission65:In the U.K. the new pro is $9800, and the le $ 16553
Same here in sweden, it`s completely silly.
Well, better to put hobby on hold, start relocate founds to investing in farmland, gold or whatever, then when the economy goes down you`ll see games available for a fourth of the price, if your interest persist thru.
Quoted from Dr-pin:Same here in sweden, it`s completely silly.
Well, better to put hobby on hold, start relocate founds to investing in farmland, gold or whatever, then when the economy goes down you`ll see games available for a fourth of the price, if your interest persist thru.
Yes, can see people in Europe importing containers again from US, pushing up their second hand market
Quoted from Dr-pin:Same here in sweden, it`s completely silly.
Well, better to put hobby on hold, start relocate founds to investing in farmland, gold or whatever, then when the economy goes down you`ll see games available for a fourth of the price, if your interest persist thru.
But yall got amazing free healthcare, paid for by taxes you support I would guess. Why are you complaining?
Quoted from Roostking:But yall got amazing free healthcare, paid for by taxes you support I would guess. Why are you complaining?
It's not free. Only free for people who cant pay.
I'm not a supporter of it. I'd like a smaller state, esp as long as they obviously are way worse with money, then me.
I'm complaining, cause silly prices on pinball machine will make the hobby die.
Quoted from Gameseum:Lol. The whole thing needs replaced of course, but it's funny to see how exact it still is from day 1.
Even the "fire knocker" icon still has a plunger...
not only does the 2021-built game not have a real knocker, neither does the 1999 one. Both digital.
So many levels deep in the outdated wormhole
And the Outlook icon for email is an envelope, the save icon is a floppy disc.
No need to change them at all.
Quoted from Dr-pin:less and less being able to play. To boot it will probably mean gaining new interested coming in to a complete standstill. Why wouldn`t that effect and bother all the people who likes the hobby?
Realty is to many people to quickly coming into pinball. Leading to not enough supply.
One area of sales not truly explored yet is pushing people with a cabins to buy a pin for that second house. On rainy days we would play dice and board games. Having a pin on a rainy day at the cabin would be bliss.
Quoted from Dr-pin:I`m complaining, cause silly prices on pinball machine will make the hobby die.
No it won’t. It could eventually reduce demand, because you know, that’s how economics works. And if that happens, prices will decrease to encourage more demand. Bell curve. Peaks and valleys. That’s how economics and supply and demand work.
Quoted from Mrawesome44:Honestly speaking I don't understand why people are so bent out of shape. If you don't like the price don't buy the product.
What you're not seeing is in order to do that it means to never buy a new Stern again. And for many of us who've been buying and enjoying NIB pins for years, mostly Sterns, it's a big disappointment. Getting excited about and buying the occasional new release is a big part of the hobby for many people. Once you're knocked out of that it's all old pins for you.
Quoted from JohnTTwo:One area of sales not truly explored yet is pushing people with a cabins to buy a pin for that second house. On rainy days we would play dice and board games. Having a pin on a rainy day at the cabin would be bliss.
Seems like we are seeing that more and more in rental cabins in the Smoky Mountains. Unfortunately pinball machines still aren't nearly as common as pool tables or video games at this point, but better than nothing. Some day I hope to own one of those cabins and obviously it will have at least one pin.
Quoted from Dr-pin:Saying that it´s a luxury any way, is completely idiotic.
If you reason the same with everything, are you really happy with lifes only meaning is to put food on the table?
Any TOY that exceeds a month’s worth of basic necessity is the very definition of luxury.
“the state of great comfort and extravagant living.”
What’s your idea of a fair price for a premium of the new Godzilla? $5000?
1. We both know that would be an insane deal with next to zero profit (or likely a loss) for Stern.
2. $5000 is literally several months of comfortable living - food, shelter, transportation, entertainment, communication, hobby money, insurance, taxes, etc. in the very best countries in the world. You could literally live years off this money in others.
As a video game fanatic once said to me “I spend $60 on a game, you spend over $6000 on one. Pinball is the biggest flex in gaming”
Pinball is the epitome of luxury. I can’t even imagine how entitled someone has to be to not see that.
Quoted from IdahoRealtor:What you're not seeing is in order to do that it means to never buy a new Stern again. And for many of us who've been buying and enjoying NIB pins for years, mostly Sterns, it's a big disappointment. Getting excited about and buying the occasional new release is a big part of the hobby for many people. Once you're knocked out of that it's all old pins for you.
Every company is raising the prices it’s not just Stern. Spooky CE is 9k without butter. JJP is up there already. Dutch is 12k. Rumor is AP next game is supposed to be affordable but we’ll see what that is. Be an interesting year if some things go through we will hit hyper inflation soon after.
Hate to say it, but we’re just going to have to accept taking a bigger hit when selling a new game. I’ve been spoiled by the rising market, and I sold my last 2 Sterns for what I had in them (I could have taken a small profit, but sold to friends instead for a quick and easy sale).
What sucks is that as soon as I start “losing” money on games, my wife will stop supporting me buying them. I put “losing” in quotes because I feel like spending $200-500 for the privilege of owning a new game for a year or two is still a pretty good deal.
Quoted from RyanStl:For me, it's just the how fast and the amount of increase which is pissing people off. It would be less of an aggrevation if the dollar for a title doesn't change and only increases on new titles. It even sucks for non NIB buyers because prices of used games float up with the NIB prices.
I'm more annoyed that the thousands of people who had preorders in are now expecting to pay $500-$1000 more for essentially nothing. I think most companies would respect a preorder price. Especially because a lot of those preorders were supposed to be out by now but keep getting delayed.
I'm in that camp with an EHOH. They're essentially saying, by the way, we didn't make enough last run to get you your preorder, so it's delayed until 2022, and by the way, since we delayed it to 2022, it's going to cost $500 more dollars. To me, that is a shitty thing to do.
The price increase is expecting. Everything in the US is up in price. We are all aware that the lumber they need, the labor, and the microchips have all gone up significantly in the last year. And that is the stuff we're aware of because it effects other industries. I would be surprised if the other mechs didn't rise as well.
Not getting political here, as there is good and bad from the situation, but it's interesting to see what adding 20% to the money pool through these stimulus packages on top of a pandemic which stopped manufacturing for a while will do. I think we're just seeing that start of things going up.
Toronto, ON
Quoted from swampfire:Hate to say it, but we’re just going to have to accept taking a bigger hit when selling a new game. I’ve been spoiled by the rising market, and I sold my last 2 Sterns for what I had in them (I could have taken a small profit, but sold to friends instead for a quick and easy sale).
What sucks is that as soon as I start “losing” money on games, my wife will stop supporting me buying them. I put “losing” in quotes because I feel like spending $200-500 for the privilege of owning a new game for a year or two is still a pretty good deal.
Why would higher prices equate to taking a bigger hit at time of resale?
It's still going to be supply and demand. If you unbox a game and someone else wants that title, they can either buy brand new or buy yours for less.
An unboxing fee of whatever has been the norm previously isn't likely to change in my opinion.
Quoted from explosiveegg:I'm more annoyed that the thousands of people who had preorders in are now expecting to pay $500-$1000 more for essentially nothing. I think most companies would respect a preorder price. Especially because a lot of those preorders were supposed to be out by now but keep getting delayed.
I'm in that camp with an EHOH. They're essentially saying, by the way, we didn't make enough last run to get you your preorder, so it's delayed until 2022, and by the way, since we delayed it to 2022, it's going to cost $500 more dollars. To me, that is a shitty thing to do.
The price increase is expecting. Everything in the US is up in price. We are all aware that the lumber they need, the labor, and the microchips have all gone up significantly in the last year. And that is the stuff we're aware of because it effects other industries. I would be surprised if the other mechs didn't rise as well.
Not getting political here, as there is good and bad from the situation, but it's interesting to see what adding 20% to the money pool through these stimulus packages on top of a pandemic which stopped manufacturing for a while will do. I think we're just seeing that start of things going up.
While ideal that is super rare to see.
Look at concerts, limited edition clothing, high end watches, NFTs, etc etc. if the qty is limited theres the value.
Not saying it’s right just the nature of the beast of living in an deflationary currency with limited asset.
Quoted from explosiveegg:I'm more annoyed that the thousands of people who had preorders in are now expecting to pay $500-$1000 more for essentially nothing. I think most companies would respect a preorder price. Especially because a lot of those preorders were supposed to be out by now but keep getting delayed.
I'm in that camp with an EHOH. They're essentially saying, by the way, we didn't make enough last run to get you your preorder, so it's delayed until 2022, and by the way, since we delayed it to 2022, it's going to cost $500 more dollars. To me, that is a shitty thing to do.
The price increase is expecting. Everything in the US is up in price. We are all aware that the lumber they need, the labor, and the microchips have all gone up significantly in the last year. And that is the stuff we're aware of because it effects other industries. I would be surprised if the other mechs didn't rise as well.
Not getting political here, as there is good and bad from the situation, but it's interesting to see what adding 20% to the money pool through these stimulus packages on top of a pandemic which stopped manufacturing for a while will do. I think we're just seeing that start of things going up.
I agree in principal, but if their actual costs are higher from the time the orders were taken to the time they build them, they run the risk of saying 'sorry, we'll lose money on these'. We don't know what the actual profit margin is on any given machine, but I assume they have a goal in mind, and right now it is hard to predict what prices will be in 6 months to a year for materials.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:While ideal that is super rare to see.
Look at concerts, limited edition clothing, high end watches, NFTs, etc etc. if the qty is limited theres the value.
Not saying it’s right just the nature of the beast of living in an deflationary currency with limited asset.
I just don't think a company that has been around as long as Stern should still be taking preorders and not respecting them.
A preorder where you have to put a thousand dollars down, to me is a lock in that when this comes off the assembly line you'll get it at the agreed upon price. They literally are taking money at the time of pre-ordering to hold the spot, then upping the price. It's shitty of them to do. And it's not the first time they've done it. I bet this bs has impacted a large number of buyers by now, combining everytime they've done it. It will make me a lot less likely to buy again in the future.
I'm sure if you pre-ordered anything you listed above, they would respect the price. I'm saying it makes sense that the price is going up, but it's shitty of Stern to screw over people who preorder. Which then makes distributors look bad.
Quoted from swampfire:In all seriousness, we’re lucky to have people loaning us money for next to nothing while we (the US) stack up debt we’ll never ever pay off.
Nobody is loaning us money. The Fed is just printing it out of thin air.
Quoted from explosiveegg:I just don't think a company that has been around as long as Stern should still be taking preorders and not respecting them.
A preorder where you have to put a thousand dollars down, to me is a lock in that when this comes off the assembly line you'll get it at the agreed upon price. They literally are taking money at the time of pre-ordering to hold the spot, then upping the price. It's shitty of them to do. And it's not the first time they've done it. I bet this bs has impacted a large number of buyers by now, combining everytime they've done it. It will make me a lot less likely to buy again in the future.
I'm sure if you pre-ordered anything you listed above, they would respect the price. I'm saying it makes sense that the price is going up, but it's shitty of Stern to screw over people who preorder. Which then makes distributors look bad.
That is a different argument. I agree anything preordered should not be increased.
Quoted from guitarded:Nobody is loaning us money. The Fed is just printing it out of thin air.
That's not how it works. Bonds are issued, to cover it and the money supply is manipulated that's true but every dollar is borrowed/bond backed.
Quoted from KozMckPinball:That's not how it works. Bonds are issued, to cover it and the money supply is manipulated that's true but every dollar is borrowed/bond backed.
Go look at who is actually buying them.
Hint : It's the Fed doing both the buying and selling. Kind of how shell games work.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:That is a different argument. I agree anything preordered should not be increased.
Most customers with deposits can handle
a long wait but when prices rise along with layering additional feature costs you didn’t count on paying for going in - its just not the best look.
So it goes. This is the market today.
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:Man. There sure seems tobe a bunch of smart business people in here capable of opening pinball companies. Please do so and flood the market so prices fall. That be great.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Nobody knows how to run Stern better than pinside.
I think it is a great business decision by Stern. They are killing it. I would offer applause, but I am not a Stern shareholder, just a guy who likes buying NIB pinball machines and the price increase, from a consumer standpoint, blows.
Quoted from KozMckPinball:That's not how it works. Bonds are issued, to cover it and the money supply is manipulated that's true but every dollar is borrowed/bond backed.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/081415/understanding-how-federal-reserve-creates-money.asp
"backed" - by nothing but the chain of origin coming from a bond created out of thin air, secured only by name.
They 'lend' money at almost free rates and allow the banks to multiply that money when they lend it out.. again undercutting what the 'lend' was in the first place.
When you skip to the end... they are basically just giving away credit (aka printing money...)
I don't really think there is a "preorder" system with Stern. It's more of a reservation with the distributor to get one of there allocated games. Each distributor will handle it their own way. I had no $$ down but maybe some take $$ up front. The distributors are at the mercy of Stern setting the price for each run of games.
Reply
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!
Donate to PinsideGreat to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
