I believe you could find 20 2D animators and 20 3D modelers (having experience in said things, they're all over the place) per 1 dot-matrix animator. You really think it's the other way around?

Perhaps Stern probably just already had the dot-matrix people and was nervous to rock the boat, but 2D animators and 3D modelers are both one of those jobs where the people are plentifully basically begging for work.

Now that they're doing 3D-modeled graphics (thankfully) which they weren't doing in the earliest games like Aerosmith, obviously that requires yet another set of skills and hands, albeit it seems they are going totally 2D animation or totally 3D animations (GUI always being 2D obviously) so never "both".

I'd assume it would be way easier and more cost efficient to find a 2D artist or a 3D modeler than some of the dot matrix stuff they were doing, let alone the time it takes.

Additionally, it seems like most of these people also tend to work alone or with a small group.

The animation is the easy part and basically the cherry on top of the total game. I wouldn't be surprised if a single skilled animator could crank out all the animations in a game in a week to three weeks. It's not really that big of an undertaking.

I'm sure dot matrix animation is a way more complicated process than an artist drawing freehand on a tablet and creating different frames of animation (particularly easy in the digital age now that we have virtual tablets, and can save and erase to create minor changes for animation), or a 3D modeler crafting things up in Blender.

Add pre-recorded pre-existing live action footage (where permitted) that couldn't be done before, with no work whatsoever, to fill in the gaps like The Beatles, and you have a big time and work advantage actually.

I have the same amount of experience in the same field. I think you are starting to stray away from my original point. When you are comparing content made for DMDs and LCDs....LCDs have more going on. The original argument is why didn't Stern move to LCDs sooner because they were so cheap. Making content for LCDs is much more expensive than the hardware itself. Compare the amount of content on a DMD to and LCD game.

Really? I feel my MBr is quite solid next to my recent Sterns, though I’m not complaining about their lighter-ness; makes’em easier to nudge without killing my wrists. Though nothing else I have compares to my 2002 Stern Playboy - what a tank. Tipped the delivery guy $100 to help get that into the home cause I felt so bad, and he was no lightweight of a man.

I don’t play in tournaments, as I find them to be torturous unfun slogs….so, sorry, you won’t be able to double torture me lol

Shows like South Park make an episode a week because all of the assets are computerized and the animation is standardized.

Once you get the characters and worlds 3D modeled, it's smooth sailing from there.

South Park is animated more like 3D than 2D as well in a program called Maya, and takes any of the drawing out of it.

With the aesthetics on certain Stern games in the 2D era, I assume this route may be used as well... albeit not in all cases. It's definitely a streamlined process.

I would consider the amount of animations in a pinball machine to be quite small as well. Very repetitive.

Also wanted to add...because I think this is important...there is a lot of room for improvement with LCD animation. But I imagine the current state is because of the production schedule of games, the amount of people doing that job (one person?), and just what is allowed to be used based on the IP holder.

I was extremely impressed with how they've come from Aerosmith (2D) to Jurassic Park (3D). The 3D-modeled atmosphere was a great touch and something that should've been done from the first place. I guess they're still grasping the capabilities of the LCD.

You could really tell in the early games that lacked any kind of 3D animation, but looks like they are improving a few years down the road now.

The CGC MB is the worst of the lot. Know quite a few people that moved it really quick.

They were actually doing 3D on DMDs…which was probably a transitional ramp up to LCD. Star Trek had some 3D modeled scenes of the Enterprise (or Vengeance?), Goatf***ers has tons of 3D…the Ecto-1 scenes, for example. It’s just downrez’d & displayed as dots.

It’s not about finding them. It’s about affording to pay a crew vs. 1 dude & creating a schedule/pipeline that Stern has never done before after doing dots since the 90s.

South Park is reusing 90% of the same assets week to week. The art direction is simple & hasn’t changed in 20 years, so creating new assets is relatively simple. Every single Stern game has a different style, art direction, rules from the licensor, assets available or lack thereof. I don’t think 1 Stern LCD game has reused anything from another.

Gary should have taken a page from deeproot and hire an entire studio to do animation

What about JJP? How many people do they dedicate to screen content?

I figured they'd just convert certain videos to dots (and meant to include that in my reply), albeit the results sometimes were a bit odd. It's certainly an easy way to do things, but it got even easier now... now they just dump the real footage in completely untouched. I guess it depends if the license really has stipulations that differ between converted movie footage and just the footage itself in the end, but in the end everything is so much easier on LCD physically - speaking literally rather than how much of a PITA the licensors make it.

I really feel like the 2017-era 2D animations were probably all done by the same dude, and the more recent 3D animations are probably done either by one dude or a very small team.

I'm not saying it isn't time consuming, I'm just saying it's probably as time consuming (or lack thereof) as DMD animation. Just gotta teach or replace the people. 2D animations are insanely plentiful in the world, and albeit 3D modelers and animations are slightly more niche, it's not by much.

Yes & no. When originally creating dmd animations it was more challenging because there’s only so much real estate. Software wasn’t as sophisticated either. Now lcd more freedom better software. I think once pf is designed you just recycle those assets & variations there of. I’m 1000% confident the majority of animations were rendered out by AE. It’s mostly 2d animations from what I’ve seen. Thanks

Yes, I took that into account:

Also, just one South Park episode is 30 minutes, a Stern pinball machine probably has 3-4 minutes overall, tops?

The LCD graphics on Aerosmith are great. Terrific artwork, and they fit the game perfectly. While I can appreciate that Jurassic Park has more detailed graphics, that didn’t stop me from selling it. And the movie clip approach used on games like Guardians is my least favorite. Led Zeppelin to me is the best compromise - short band clips blended with well-done graphics.

I also came back to concede a point to the JJP fans: JJP does a much better job with licensing content. You guys get multiple complete albums, while we’re stuck with the 10 songs that were picked for us. LZ would be a much better pin if I could pick any song from Led Zeppelin I-IV.

Yep, it's the same vein of Stern using real pictures for pinball artwork in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Thankfully they went back to the drawn style. Lots of Pinside threads were had over the "cookie cutter" artwork from that period.

On that note, I really like the stock JP code & amimations, not sure why the movie code is such a hit - feels so tacky and fake too. To each their own I guess. Like you, I'd rather have new animations than old real footage. And that's a mod... when they do it officially it's even more of a shame. Easy way out I suppose.

I hated on the JP LCD when it launched, but now that I have it, I respect the approach & while you’re playing, it fits perfectly. Sure there are a few wonky things, but overall I think they did an excellent job. Now, if I had a TMNT, I’d def change that to the 80s cartoon clips mod lol

league==tournament...whatever.

I don't think I've ever loved a game as much as I love my Jurassic Park and it also makes bank like no other lol

Stern animations could definitely be a little more polished as they look a little 2002 themselves at times but they're definitely heading in the right direction and getting better and better at using the technology.

Can't say enough great things about JP though

Now I just scratch my head about why they didn't do perhaps the most simple change ever, create a simple front-end to not still make the operator menu an emulated DMD screen, but whatever Probably has as much to do with operator familiarity as it does with Stern just employing that "If it ain't broke" attitude. Always found that to be odd and hope eventually they utilize the damn screen fully

Thanks for the interesting discussion

Sounds like the system is broken to me.

To me, it is an employee's market for those who are "hunters" and not "hopers" or people to lazy to go to work. For those looking to work and give back, this is a great time to do so. Your focus is on the "lazy and unmotivated". Mine is on the go-getters and those who see opportunity while the uninitiated and unmotivated sit at home.

I am in agreement with you on your points. I genuinely do agree. We see things differently.

As far as a labor shortage, there are some industries that are WELL known for the "hey, you want to quiet, fine, I got a list of 25 people ready to take your job." I remember hearing that and being told that before going active duty, and I resented that crap. That's not how you keep people. You keep people by mentoring, taking care of, and looking after them. Happy people are encouraged, and encouraged people are productive. There are some national employers that definitely don't do that.

I am saying that in some cases, people are fed up being treated lowly to the point of nearly sub-human, and they are realizing that can better themselves and progress in their lifestyles and careers with the extra money.

For those who want to view it as everyone "sitting at home watching TV and playing on their cell phones" - well - that's your right. I'm going to view it in a more positive light.

I don't know, but JJP and American Pinball have some awesome LCD presentations. Playing JJP games and looking at the screen is amazing and Houdini has great animations and back glass.

We have what we call an old man track, not one double all table tops and the long ones have that perfect long downhill landing ramp you can land 70-100 with zero issue heck probably the only bad landing area is at about the 35' mark other than that short or long no worries. Nice straight launching ramps. I want him to build a supercross finish line jump where you are never off the ground more than 2 feet, he said it will look like a big ta ta!

It is a long way and I hate the thought of not being able to do it much longer as I am getting older.

Yeah the wave blasters are fun, but I think the Kawi Jet skis are the most like a dirt bike.

Most importantly, the guy at Sega who made the little DMD icons for the operator menu better be getting royalty checks from Stern! (I kid, I kid.) 20+ years of service!

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Soon as my salary goes up roughly 15%, mid-year, due to inflation, I'll be square.

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I’m sure it’s been in the works, and eventually all the LCD games will get a menu update across the board.

That shit menu is a disgrace
They've had more than enough time to update it

Lol. The whole thing needs replaced of course, but it's funny to see how exact it still is from day 1.

Even the "fire knocker" icon still has a plunger...
not only does the 2021-built game not have a real knocker, neither does the 1999 one. Both digital.

So many levels deep in the outdated wormhole

All of my Sterns right up to and including 2021 have real knockers and I'm glad the menu is there to enable and test them.

Not unless JJP gets its act together and fixes the atrocious playfield situation.

I’ve been patiently waiting for Toy Story LE/CE but not willing to spend current prices to play Russian Roulette with playfield quality.

you just need buy one an wire it up

at the very lest use the old BIG DMD menus that make use of the bigger size.

Ah long rollers and tabletops...I guess that makes a little more sense. Heres a pic of me in my younger days. This was maybe 55-60 foot so thats why I was questioning you a bit

As for the jet ski's are you talking about the x2 or a stand up? Kawi stand ups suck compared to the yamahas and the x2 is cool but has nothing on the waveblaster. WB is way more a dirtbike experience than a standup too. Unfortunately WB prices have skyrocketed lately too

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I can hear Gary Stern yelling "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" lol

Wow that’s awesome, I was to scared to jump a wheeler. Just never seemed like I could control it in the air like a bike. There is no better feeling to me then zero G’s and flying. Better then cracking a nut. The only double I really do now is Millville in the back and that’s only cuz I don’t wanna be landed on.

Hah! That's some funny stuff.

'No Politics' is supposedly the rule here, however the "Capitalism is GREEDY and BAD" crowd always seems to get a pass on that one.

You have that wrong. Capitalism isn't bad. The way people abuse capitalism and then complain about those 'damn poor lazy people abusing the system' is bad. Yep we get it, don't make enough, go find another job...so what are you going to do when no one wants to do your minimum wage jobs? Oh...wait...

LZ Clips are too short and too much distortion on them for my taste. I think they could have improved a lot on the presentation but I'm too busy watching the PF to really pay attention anyway!

...making my point.

Oh I know, but we're talking prices, which is about wages and capitalism, started by the ones saying things like 'what they can't make money?' etc. It is what it is. IMO if you don't complain about price hikes for the sake of complaining, you got way too much money

My point is that from previous experience here I KNOW: If I reply to a comment coming from a Liberal viewpoint with a Conservative concept, *I* will get my hand slapped by the moderators for 'NO POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS'. The original comments do not seem to be a problem, however.

"Politics" is a pretty subjective and fuzzy line, but I agree it should be kept out entirely. It does go both ways though that thread about the Chinese manufactured pinball machines had guys making blatantly racist jokes to no moderation.

There is something annoyingly wrong about charging more, partly due to introducing features like the goofy internet connected QR code reader that no one wants. Especially when that stupid "feature" paves the road for DLC content in pinball...which obviously will fleece people even more in the future.

I'm out if I have to pay for updates I used to get for "free". Or even worse, have to pay some kind of subscription fee.

F you Mcdonalds and your price increases!

Do we know if the prices are increasing on machines like Mando, TMNT, etc. to the new Godzilla pricing? Or will all those be the same besides the Stern Insider mark up? (ex: will Mando still be $6,199 or is it moving to $6,899)?

It’s been said a few times - everything going to GZ pricing January 1 2022

No anger. No favoring. Just calling u out on ur bullshit.

Gotcha, thank you!