Quoted from snakesnsparklers:LOL, trying to walk back your idiotic comment
bahahahaha so great!!!!
(Topic ID: 300400)
Quoted from Hazoff:Thats always been a problem for me. I like Rickenbacker basses and SG's starting collecting Synths recently and every time I buy a pin I have a moment where I think well there's a classic Moog or a custom 3 pick up SG or a new bass or recording equipment, basically the best problems u can have.
Never said u can't stand Stern. I said u can't stand that they dominate the industry. Its crystal clear from reading ur posts but nice try. I don't hate JJP, I do think their theme choices suck and so far I haven't been impressed with the gameplay, with the exception of DI which I would have bought if it didn't look like they made it for pre teen girls.
[quoted image]
I could care less about Stern dominating the industry and if by that you mean selling the most games. Selling the most pinball machines doesn't automatically mean Stern is the best. I suppose Little Cesar's and Dominoes make the best pizzas as they sell the most right? It doesn't work that way.
I've noticed you making jabs at certain collectors (one being me) saying that they are not good at pinball and only care about flash. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are a lot of collectors out there that don't care about tournaments, they don't care that you scored 10 billion points on a game and yet at the same time they are good players. These collectors buy games for their home because they have fun with them. I personally want games that are loaded considering today's asking price and come with modes featuring great mode choreography. There's no reason to insult people for wanting that in a game. Really what you are doing is are unfairly singling out people who own and enjoy JJP pins.
All kidding aside I was able to buy 6 of these and need some advice on where I can flip them for the best profit.
Parkersburg, WV
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:He said although they do consider potential resale value, it typically not the driving force behind the purchase decision.
Why not? High resale value is one of the major reasons individuals buy nib especially LE. In some cases, you might even make money. If games are earning well and you can sell games for close to what you paid for them, I don't see how a price increase makes much difference.
Quoted from Mark1971:All kidding aside I was able to buy 6 of these and need some advice on where I can flip them for the best profit.
I’m sure you’re joking. However, I’ve seen a certain pinsider that buys many new LE’s or version of a desirable pin, think he has had 3 Lebowski’s now, only to sell them very soon after because, “unfortunate medical bills and I need to free up some cash”. Why not just own the fact you flip games! Anyone that can see previous listing of his can go back to 2018 and see the same story on all his listings of “ have to sell because of medical bills, DONT WANT TO, but I just need to!” Pay attention everyone, this is a big reason for price increases! Maybe we can have a fund raiser for this guy so he can quit flipping games!!!!!!!!!
Quoted from konghusker:We also know that the games aren’t costing them that much more to make than even a few years back.
We do? So you know their labor, parts, and transportation costs?
Love when people just put out unsubstantiated claims as fact
As a business owner, I can tell you that you only have to go back 12 months to see that all 3 are way up
Quoted from woody76:I agree with most of your comments, but most of the people complaining have $100k + worth of pinball machines in their collections. I do not think it is a "work hard and make more money problem" for most of us. I have had large collections worth $100k and sold them off at a large profit. To me it is a value thing as I could never ever get $10k worth of enjoyment out of ANY pinball machine. I could afford an entire house full of games, but it has just gotten stupid at this point. I bought 2 sea-doos at the beginning of the summer for $11k and we have had more fun with those things than I ever have with a single machine. I really miss the days when $5k could get you a NIB or you could buy a nice B/W for about the same. I have always thought a pinball machine should never be over $5k. That is where i see value/return and we are WAY beyond those days. I am going to sell a few more off and keep a handful of older 90's games and be done.
To me the true cost is not $10k - when you can own them for years and resell them for a good chunk of their original value
If I buy a machine for $10k - play and enjoy it for 3 years and then sell if for $7k (which is probably a low figure) - Who cares? $1000/year to have a pinball machine in my basement is worth it to me.
I have 5 machines which seems like a good number to me.
Maybe those with mega collections should consider trimming the herd to the ones they enjoy the most.
I don't understand a basement with 20 machines, how often can you play each one?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I've got four awesome guitars and never spent more than $3.5k on one. For many here, I'm sure the idea of spending that kind of money on a block of wood and some strings is nuts.
It's all relative baby![quoted image][quoted image]
If I could actually play, it wouldn't bother me to spend that on a quality instrument at all. I'm thinking about picking up a cello again, but I'm going to start with a cheap electric practice one that I can plug headphones into. 
One more vote for how these price increases suck. They’re never going to reduce the price let’s be honest. The prices even for a Pro model just aren’t worth it. I feel the most bad for operators who are many times just hobbyists spreading the love of pinball and aren’t making significant profit operating these. The rate at which these increases are happening is just too fast and unjustified from what I can tell.
In reality stern is just cutting out the flipper and secondary market profits. They would be idiots to continue to sell games that someone turns around and makes 1-3k on without ever even opening the box. It's not hard to figure out that they are not charging enough or making enough games when every LE is sold out before it is announced and there is a 6 month backlog for most pro's and premiums. It's pretty simple business. The demand is greatly out pacing the supply and people are willing to pay whatever to get what they want.
If you don't like the prices just don't buy them. So many of you act like stern owes you the exact game you want in the exact price range you can afford. They don't.
While many of you are freaking out I'm sitting over here thinking about how my current games just increased in value. Sure am glad I grab an Avengers from the last premium run. It's already worth more then I paid lol. If this continues my retirement is sitting in my gameroom, or does this lead us back to the restart on pinball bubble threads?
The only thing I would be concerned about if I'm stern is what happens when you release a dud? How many LZ's are going to sell for $10,500
Quoted from Mike_J:Yes, but I don’t believe we will be charged for all code updates.
Basically sounds like DLC except for pinball
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:have 5 machines which seems like a good number to me.
Maybe those with mega collections should consider trimming the heard to the ones they enjoy the most.
I don't understand a basement with 20 machines, how often can you play each one?
I wish I had your discipline! I used to have 30-something. I’m down to 23. I wish I could easily decide to cull it to 10 or 15, but I legitimately love my games and still play the ones I’ve had for a decade or more. The truth is, I’m mostly playing whatever is newest (right now JP Prem and R&M). My toddler likes going into the gameroom and playing everything, so that’s fun!
It was easy for me to sell off my arcade games and classic console games - as there are easy ways to revisit those titles without keeping the physical item. If I sell off a lot of pins…it’s unlikely I’m ever going to play them again (or rebuy them based on where prices have gone).
Sports analogy: Mike Trout makes $37 million a season. Chris Paul makes $38 million per season. Pro salaries have never gone down and game tickets are pretty much unaffordable for that reason. Yet the stands are full for the games. It cost me over $800 to take my son to a Boston Bruins first round playoff game. That's not a scalped price, that's straight from Ticketmaster, a price set by the team/league. It's crazy. At least you have the option of watching the game on TV or your phone instead. With pinball, maybe the future is, location play becomes more prevalent, as prices increase, or maybe we watch other people play the games on TV or YouTube as well. 
Quoted from greeneye:So people will continue to buy LE's from flippers moving forward and look themselves in the mirror?
Moral lines in the sand for grown up luxury toys?
Newmarket, ON
Quoted from KozMckPinball:Sports analogy: Mike Trout makes $37 million a season. Chris Paul makes $38 million per season. Pro salaries have never gone down and games are pretty much unaffordable for that reason. It cost me over $800 to take my son to a Boston Bruins first round playoff game. That's not a scalped price, that's straight from Ticketmaster, a price set by the team/league. It's crazy.
that's ok , the jays will make it in and Boston won't and you'll save money . lol
The argument that they keep going up in value so it’s okay is just bullshit for consumers though. I want to buy a NIB game to keep and not to flip or sell eventually. For my purposes of buying a game for my collection I feel like I was shafted $500 or more in the last 6 months even on an arbitrary increase. Sure that’s capitalism or whatever but it sucks to feel like you’re being taken advantage of, like a company’s bottom line is more important than making your customers feel good about buying from them. Guess that’s business though.
Quoted from KozMckPinball:Sports analogy: Mike Trout makes $37 million a season. Chris Paul makes $38 million per season. Pro salaries have never gone down and games are pretty much unaffordable for that reason. It cost me over $800 to take my son to a Boston Bruins first round playoff game. That's not a scalped price, that's straight from Ticketmaster, a price set by the team/league. It's crazy. At least you have the option of watching the game on TV or your phone instead. With pinball, maybe the future is, location play becomes more prevalent, as prices increase, or maybe we watch other people play the games on TV as well.
When you bought those Bruins tickets from Ticketmaster, were the seats listed in blue or red? Red is a "verified resale" which is usually a season ticket holder selling their seats for that game at a higher price than "blue" which is an actual unsold seat. Also were you in the lower tier or upper? Center ice or behind the net? It's like real estate - location dictates price. My son attends the University of Tampa so I know first hand about ticket prices ( which I pay for him to attend lightning games).
Quoted from gjm:When you bought those Bruins tickets from Ticketmaster, were the seats listed in blue or red? Red is a "verified resale" which is usually a season ticket holder selling their seats for that game at a higher price than "blue" which is an actual unsold seat. Also were you in the lower tier or upper? Center ice or behind the net? It's like real estate - location dictates price. My son attends the University of Tampa so I know first hand about ticket prices ( which I pay for him to attend lightning games).
Blue. Mid tier just below the corporate boxes. Right center section. Good tickets for sure. Face value tickets, price was set somewhere between $325 to $350 per ticket I believe from Bruins/NHL. That's my point. it's not scalpers in my example just very high ticket prices. The rest was Ticketmaster fees but that's the only way to get tickets there's no team box office anymore. Pro teams have decided that team box offices are expensive so they've out-sourced that to Ticketmaster. Ticketmaster charges, in this case, $50 a ticket for processing. So teams cut costs and made the average ticket price go up by $50 it seems. It's not just Stern is my point. At some point there has to be diminishing returns as prices go up, but I have not seen it regarding sports event tickets.
Got to love it when people make it about class warfare. Let's be real clear here: a person's bank account is not making the price of pinball go up; it is the mania of collectors that is driving prices. I see so many people bitching about the prices here and how they are not going to buy any more NIB. That rich guys are ruining the market. Then I see how many games they own. 8 machines. 20. More. So what this tells you is that all things being equal, they want the new games, but they don't want or can't afford to buy the new games. So as opposed to enjoying the games they have, buy used, go to league, whatever they crap on people that can afford to buy the games. I have seen on here people talking about raising the prices on LE's to subsidize the lower models. Absolutely ridiculous.
As I said earlier, PINBALL OWES YOU NOTHING! People get way wrapped into this and feel that they have to have rows of games to participate. People with this thought process are only hurting themselves because they are setting themselves up for failure. "If I can't buy this game, I can't participate at the level I want, so that makes me feel bad. Let me direct this anger to rich people buying games as an outlet for my fury." It is bullshit. Enjoy what you have and how you participate in the hobby. As NPO would categorize and judge me, I can stroke a check. I have one, count them one, machine. A Hook that I bought in '99 for 700 bucks. Dont care where it is on the Pinside list. I love that machine. I play other games on location. I am sure I will buy another machine sometime but I dont put the value on machines that some of you do. Pinball does not define who I am. Sadly, for a lot of you, I get the feeling that pinball is your identity. This is toxic for you and your mental health. Get your priorities straight.
Stern is raising pin pricing because they are a business. That is how businesses survive. Rich people can assuredly afford things, which factors into their pricing decisions. But the collector mentality (regardless of income) is the driving factor in pricing across the board going up.
Quoted from DBLM:Got to love it when people make it about class warfare. Let's be real clear here: a person's bank account is not making the price of pinball go up; it is the mania of collectors that is driving prices. I see so many people bitching about the prices here and how they are not going to buy any more NIB. That rich guys are ruining the market. Then I see how many games they own. 8 machines. 20. More. So what this tells you is that all things being equal, they want the new games, but they don't want or can't afford to buy the new games. So as opposed to enjoying the games they have, buy used, go to league, whatever they crap on people that can afford to buy the games. I have seen on here people talking about raising the prices on LE's to subsidize the lower models. Absolutely ridiculous.
As I said earlier, PINBALL OWES YOU NOTHING! People get way wrapped into this and feel that they have to have rows of games to participate. People with this thought process are only hurting themselves because they are setting themselves up for failure. "If I can't buy this game, I can't participate at the level I want, so that makes me feel bad. Let me direct this anger to rich people buying games as an outlet for my fury." It is bullshit. Enjoy what you have and how you participate in the hobby. As NPO would categorize and judge me, I can stroke a check. I have one, count them one, machine. A Hook that I bought in '99 for 700 bucks. Dont care where it is on the Pinside list. I love that machine. I play other games on location. I am sure I will buy another machine sometime but I dont put the value on machines that some of you do. Pinball does not define who I am. Sadly, for a lot of you, I get the feeling that pinball is your identity. This is toxic for you and your mental health. Get your priorities straight.
Stern is raising pin pricing because they are a business. That is how businesses survive. Rich people can assuredly afford things, which factors into their pricing decisions. But the collector mentality (regardless of income) is the driving factor in pricing across the board going up.
Everyone has a "they" to hate or blame.
Quoted from DBLM:Got to love it when people make it about class warfare. Let's be real clear here: a person's bank account is not making the price of pinball go up; it is the mania of collectors that is driving prices. I see so many people bitching about the prices here and how they are not going to buy any more NIB. That rich guys are ruining the market. Then I see how many games they own. 8 machines. 20. More. So what this tells you is that all things being equal, they want the new games, but they don't want or can't afford to buy the new games. So as opposed to enjoying the games they have, buy used, go to league, whatever they crap on people that can afford to buy the games. I have seen on here people talking about raising the prices on LE's to subsidize the lower models. Absolutely ridiculous.
As I said earlier, PINBALL OWES YOU NOTHING! People get way wrapped into this and feel that they have to have rows of games to participate. People with this thought process are only hurting themselves because they are setting themselves up for failure. "If I can't buy this game, I can't participate at the level I want, so that makes me feel bad. Let me direct this anger to rich people buying games as an outlet for my fury." It is bullshit. Enjoy what you have and how you participate in the hobby. As NPO would categorize and judge me, I can stroke a check. I have one, count them one, machine. A Hook that I bought in '99 for 700 bucks. Dont care where it is on the Pinside list. I love that machine. I play other games on location. I am sure I will buy another machine sometime but I dont put the value on machines that some of you do. Pinball does not define who I am. Sadly, for a lot of you, I get the feeling that pinball is your identity. This is toxic for you and your mental health. Get your priorities straight.
Stern is raising pin pricing because they are a business. That is how businesses survive. Rich people can assuredly afford things, which factors into their pricing decisions. But the collector mentality (regardless of income) is the driving factor in pricing across the board going up.
Entitlement is a hell of a drug.
I see people build pins from Scratch threads on here all the time..
If you look at part prices back ten years ago and look and these part prices now ,the Diff in prices is not substantially drastic .
The Spike system cost cut loads of wires and wire harnesses and boards and labor putting them together / .
the upgrade from DMD cost to the Little TV Screen probably saved them money due to How u can buy a smart 60" TV LED for under 600 dollars so what does that tiny thing cost . the game is a good 50+ lighter due to how much less stuff is in them /
easier to assemble/ Workers dont get big raises . who does .
They add a Tech that no one cares for and increased again after so many
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:We do? So you know their labor, parts, and transportation costs?
Love when people just put out unsubstantiated claims as fact
As a business owner, I can tell you that you only have to go back 12 months to see that all 3 are way up
Also been a Business owner /plumbing Contractor and not much has changed in my last 20 years / Service charges are still the same 100-150 for a Service call's first hour / Again i call Bullsheet / go back 12 months/ ughhh
Respect to whom ever talked about Boat ownership and the Bottomless money pit they are .
Easier to grasp prices of pins when you own a boat .
you should be used to always losing money or spending more than you ever should...!!/
lmao .
Quoted from 27dnast:Just to note: Stern sees itself as a manufacturer. Gary Stern says that all of the time. Right now, they are manufacturing pins and doing a helluva good job. As a business, they have to take advantage of the current market, and they are. Who is to say that they realize that pins are, in fact, a short term proposition? Williams pivoted, why not Stern?
No one is happy about these prices. But Stern's sales are sizling and they have a backlog of orders. Demand is greater than availability... prices go up... and current conditions have found people holding a lot of cash.
Stern would be complete idiots to ignore the fire and under charge right now. As much as I wish Godzilla Premium could be found for $6100 with a shaker and mirror blades thrown in, the market has spoken. People are willing to pay $9K. Frankly, I won't be shocked if we see premium prices approach $9.6K or higher this time next year.
All businesses are encouraged to put a dollar today ahead of a possible future dollar tomorrow, next week, or next year. Don’t blame them at all. It’s a sound business choice bringing supply demand curve back into balance. They are for sure leaving money on the table if they don’t do this. The only issue is Blockbuster did that too. As a business in it for the long haul (and Gary definitely meets that criteria) he has to be looking at what his next act here is for Stern. If it is something other than pinball, more power to him, fill the coffers and figure out how to spend it on what is next. If it supposed to be pinball, where are the customers in 10 years coming from ? I just don’t see as many with this strategy.
Quoted from KozMckPinball:Everyone has a "they" to hate or blame.
They (resized).pngQuoted from BMore-Pinball:To me the true cost is not $10k - when you can own them for years and resell them for a good chunk of their original value
If I buy a machine for $10k - play and enjoy it for 3 years and then sell if for $7k (which is probably a low figure) - Who cares? $1000/year to have a pinball machine in my basement is worth it to me.
I have 5 machines which seems like a good number to me.
Maybe those with mega collections should consider trimming the heard to the ones they enjoy the most.
I don't understand a basement with 20 machines, how often can you play each one?
I am not up to 20 yet but hope to be soon. I have like 15 now and can tell you what is awesome about it is playing them. Seems I get tuned into 1 or 2 of them for like 2 weeks and then move on to new ones. I can't believe I am currently hooked on Addams again, last night I completed 2 mansion tours in one game, and for a sucky player like me that is big, my best game ever on that machine. People always ask what is my favorite game? I honestly can't answer that. JP was hot when I first got it and haven't played it in month. But it is awesome and I am sure will be calling be back. I can tell you when I have friends over who are not pinheads the list is simple
Willy Wonka
Addams Fam
Medieval Mad
Attack from Mars
AC/DC
I am shocked people do not jump to Twilight Zone
One more reason I want a ton of games, I live a 1/2 hour from the closest sites to play and it is sad when the flippers don't work right, ramp doesn't register, glass is dirty etc. Very few places keep their games tight and right, Hudson WI Tap Room is a very nice place to play but the sound is way down. I can tell you AC/DC at volume 48 is a different experience for me and many others. And I despise the grimy flipper buttons
Quoted from Scandell:Downvote my post if you have never sold one of your games for more than you purchased it for.
You are exactly right. It's all about the optics. What you did is bad but if you open the box, play for a month, then sell for 5k more its ok. LOL
Quoted from Scandell:Downvote my post if you have never sold one of your games for more than you purchased it for.
I think there’s a difference between “yanking something off the shelf” so a legitimately interested customer can’t buy it, vs. buying old games, fixing them up, selling them for more later….or buying a game, enjoying it, then selling it for more when it’s out of production & demand is high. Sure, the end result is making money - but the intent & process are nothing alike.
Quoted from Scandell:Downvote my post if you have never sold one of your games for more than you purchased it for.
You're not selling a game for more than you paid for. You are selling a deposit for more than you paid for. You are scalping the right to buy a game and used a lame excuse that you don't like the theme.
Why put a deposit on a game where you don't like the theme? Theme is the one thing you can absolutely determine whether you like or not from the launch video and photos. You could at least make the argument of selling off your deposit after a gameplay reveal. "Oh I don't like how the game shoots, etc." But theme? Cmon. Then to add 2K onto an already marked up price.
Why not be completely honest? You bought it to flip...period. Just own up to it. Doesn't make it right but at least you are honest. Would at least have a small bit of respect for you.
I've been priced out NIB games since the beginning. Because I could only afford second hand games. Now it's at the point I can't even afford second hand games because for every NIB price increase the second hand games also increase. With that being said it's easy to justify these high prices of NIB games if you can always resell them them for a small lose or pretty much higher price.
Quoted from Palmer:Why not be completely honest? You bought it to flip...period. Just own up to it. Doesn't make it right but at least you are honest. Would at least have a small bit of respect for you.
I have been completely honest. I ordered the game while the FOMO was high. I was super disappointment with the colors and visual tone of the game. Even if the flow and gameplay is perfect...I don't think that will get me over the theme and the art package.
I can afford the deposit and it was and is worth it to me to keep my options open while more info comes out about the title. Get over it.
I really couldn't care less if I have your "respect".
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I've noticed you making jabs at certain collectors (one being me) saying that they are not good at pinball and only care about flash. That couldn't be further from the truth. There are a lot of collectors out there that don't care about tournaments, they don't care that you scored 10 billion points on a game and yet at the same time they are good players. These collectors buy games for their home because they have fun with them.
Yeah I'm one of them.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:There's no reason to insult people for wanting that in a game. Really what you are doing is are unfairly singling out people who own and enjoy JJP pins.
Only when warranted.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I could care less about Stern dominating the industry and if by that you mean selling the most games. Selling the most pinball machines doesn't automatically mean Stern is the best. I suppose Little Cesar's and Dominoes make the best pizzas as they sell the most right? It doesn't work that way.
Thanks. U just proved my point and yet at that same didn't understand at all what I was saying but that's the usual approach when someone has no real comeback. Just nonsense. Nonsense about pizza and Choreography. 
Quoted from Scandell:I have been completely honest. I ordered the game while the FOMO was high. I was super disappointment with the colors and visual tone of the game. Even if the flow and gameplay is perfect...I don't think that will get me over the theme and the art package.
I can afford the deposit and it was and is worth it to me to keep my options open while more info comes out about the title. Get over it.
The thing that drives people nuts is that you're profit-taking on game you decided you don't want. If you just decided you don't want it after learning the details, why not just let it go at cost to someone who does want it?
Quoted from epthegeek:The thing that drives people nuts is that you're profit-taking on game you decided you don't want. If you just decided you don't want it after learning the details, why not just let it go at cost to someone who does want it?
Because....CAPITALISM!
Quoted from epthegeek:The thing that drives people nuts is that you're profit-taking on game you decided you don't want. If you just decided you don't want it after learning the details, why not just let it go at cost to someone who does want it?
When you are ready to sell you home for what you paid for it please let me know.
Quoted from epthegeek:why not just let it go at cost to someone who does want it?
Cause I don't consider us to be financial partners. I've sold two games this year at a loss. You don't see me complaining.
Quoted from JohnTTwo:When you are ready to sell you home for what you paid for it please let me know.
Did I pre-order a home before it was built just so some other homeowner couldn't get their hands on it only to sell it back to them at a markup?
Maybe try a comparison that makes some sense.
I'm not saying they don't have the right to ask whatever the hell they want for it, I'm just saying it irks most people.
Quoted from JohnTTwo:When you are ready to sell you home for what you paid for it please let me know.
The two things are nothing alike. One is selling at market value a product you own, the other is scalping. Rare says it better here:
Quoted from Rarehero:I think there’s a difference between “yanking something off the shelf” so a legitimately interested customer can’t buy it, vs. buying old games, fixing them up, selling them for more later….or buying a game, enjoying it, then selling it for more when it’s out of production & demand is high. Sure, the end result is making money - but the intent & process are nothing alike.
If you don't get there is a difference here, then you are not very bright, or being disingenuous so you can feel good about being a scalper.
Quoted from epthegeek:Did I pre-order a home before it was built just so some other homeowner couldn't get their hands on it only to sell it back to them at a markup?
This actually happens ALL THE TIME in new home subdivisions. Your lack of experience is in full view.
Quoted from Scandell:This actually happens ALL THE TIME in new home subdivisions. You are really showing your experience.
Then those people are also assholes. That's all.
Quoted from epthegeek:Then those people are also assholes. That's all.
Hahahaha. Guide us oh chosen one.
Quoted from turbo20lbs:$12,500 shipped to door for NIB TBL is looking cheaper and cheaper the past 6 months or so.
Yep…. By the time it ships it may be considered a bargain. It is pretty close to the Stern Le’s now
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