(Topic ID: 148605)

F-14 Tomcat (my first pin) Advice greatly appreciated!

By Zombiepower66

8 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 years ago by GRUMPY
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#1 8 years ago

Hey guys, I'm new here and new to being the owner of my first pinball machine! I have primarily been into collecting video arcade games but I've always wanted a pinball to add to my collection. I recently acquired an F-14 Tomcat. The only info I received from the previous owner was that "it works but just doesn't show the score"

I have searched all the forums I can find but I figured since I feel like I'm in over my head here I would plead for advice from all you more knowledgeable folks.

Right now the status of the machine is:

1: No display at all (none of the four displays have any output or even a faint glow).

2: The diagnostic led WAS flashing 5 times until I replaced the IC in "U41" this afternoon. Now it just continuously flashes.

3: The batteries were corroded at some point but the previous owner had removed them. I attempted to neutralize every bit of corrosion with a scrub of 50/50 vinegar and water.

4: When the machine is booted it makes 5 sounds like a bomb dropping then a single "ding". It doesn't go into attract mode on its own. I can only get it to coin up and play if I press the "sw1" cpu test button on the motherboard. At that point it lights up and I can add a coin and play. Otherwise it just sits with a few main lights on.

At this point my main questions are:

A: What do you suggest I try next?

B: How do I start checking voltages everywhere? Specifically power to display or even overall health of main power supply.

C: Should my "diagnostic" led be continuously flashing? I've only read about what 1-11 flashes mean. When it was 5 flashes I replaced u41. The +5 and blanking lights are solid.

D: Does the game NEED batteries to function? I removed the battery box because of corrosion. I'll add a new one later.

Thank you all so much for any advice!

#2 8 years ago

Thought I would add a few pictures of the corrosion. Battery box I removed and what u41 looked like before I replaced it.

IMAG0959_(resized).jpgIMAG0959_(resized).jpg

IMAG0954_BURST001_(resized).jpgIMAG0954_BURST001_(resized).jpg

#3 8 years ago

Welcome, nice choice for first pinball. Let's give you a few first pointers and a few links....

The 5 "bomb dropping" noises and the ding are OK. If the display was working, you'd be seeing an error message about Factory Settings being restored, which is because the batteries are missing. The correct action then is to press the button in the coin door, which resets things and lets you continue. If the batteries were in place, you'd only get that first time around.

So - yes, the machine will run without batteries, but you'll need to get through the factory settings message each time before you can play.

The 5 flashes you originally were telling you that U41 was bad (probably from the battery corrosion looking at the picture), so nice job replacing it. Continuous flashing is what it should do if it's running properly.

For the power supply, as usual check the fuses. The power supply board is the one top right inside the backbox, check all the fuses there. It's not uncommon for the high voltage section for the display to blow on an old machine, so if you replace a fuse and it blows again it'll need some more looking at.

Some more resources which you'll find invaluable.....

IPDB (internet pinball database). The F-14 page is here, you can download a copy of the manual with schematics if you don't have one already.....

http://ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=804

Pinwiki. This is a constantly growing collection of information on repairing and maintaining pinball. This is the link to the section relevant for F14 (which is a "system 11" pinball).

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11

Pinrepair. This was originally "the" place to go for repair information. The site was taken down a few years back as the information was getting outdated, and also because pinwiki was up and coming. There are a few mirrors kicking around though, this is one of them. Some links are possibly broken, but still worth nosing around.

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index1.html

Feel free to post away with more questions, we're a friendly bunch (mostly!)

Mark

#4 8 years ago

Major congrats! An excellent first pickup! The PinWiki/Pinrepair are excellent sites/guides. I just used them yesterday to fix my F14 displays.

As snug mentioned the next step would be checking fuses. I'm guessing if you can replace that U41 you probably already know this, but you want to take the fuse (at least one end) out of socket to test its continuity. The next step would be to test your voltages to make sure you are getting 100V. If that all tests out, if you have a friend nearby with a working display that you can swap in would be the easiest/fastest way to diagnose if it is the display or something on the board. If not I would check the solder joints at the inputs I would replace the ribbon cable.

#5 8 years ago

Thanks Snux and Nerdygrrl for your advice. About to start working on it right now. I hadn't heard of pinwiki or pinrepair, they look like they will be very helpful.

I actually didn't realize I should pop out the fuses before checking them for continuity. Lol info like that is exactly why I'm here. My electronics skills are really rusty. Haven't read a schematic since my electronics class in high school 15 years ago.

I'll be back with more questions shortly.

#6 8 years ago

You might find with your first pinball if its not running really well you will spend more time fixing it then playing it. But it depends if you like tinkering more then playing. In hindsite i should have paid the cashola and gotten someone to fix it, play it and then slowly learn about pinballs.

For me its way more fun playing pinballs rather then fixing them. Thats my 2 cents. Heaps of info about repairs are out there, just takes time.

System 11 are awesome games

#7 8 years ago

Well I just checked out the power supply fuses. "F1" was burned out. I put another 1/4 amp fuse in and it popped as I powered up. Funny it's marked "display" and my display is out. I think we are on to something here!

#8 8 years ago

Also just noticed the knocker in the upper right corner of the back box is disconnected. Someone just cut both wires clean.

#9 8 years ago

Nice work!

Sounds like something may be wonky in you high voltage section. Knocker wires being cut is pretty common. At least four of my system 11's had their knocker cut.

Here is the section from pin repair on displays

"Blown high voltage score display Fuse(s) in the Backbox.
Every system 11 game at least one fuse to protect the +100 and -100 voltages which power the score displays. Later games have more than one fuse. These are located in fuse holders in the backbox. If these fuse(s) are blown, try replacing them, and power the game back on. If they blow again immediately, you will probably need to rebuild the high voltage section of the power supply board.

Also a blown UDN7180 chip on the master display board can cause the high voltage fuse(s) to blow on the power supply board. These chips can short the +/- 100 volts directly ground, and blow the fuse."

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index3.htm#display

#10 8 years ago

Nice! I've been trying to figure out how exactly to test the + and - 100 volts. I can't find any info on where all the test points are. I've been tearing through the manual and googling for how to check voltages but I'm stumped.

It does seem like I will be rebuilding the power supply soon because it's a common issue but I would like to confirm that my voltages are out of spec just to be thorough.

Would a blown udn7180 be visibly burnt? I took out my display board yesterday and it looks to be in good shape but I'm not sure if I could tell just by looking.

Thanks again!

#11 8 years ago

After several months of dinking around with my System 11 Space Station, I now have a perfectly working and fun machine. I had issues with my aux power board among many others. I found the following two links to be very helpful, both referenced above

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index1.html

http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_9_-_11

Also not much on System 11 machines but loads of more info at

http://pinballrehab.com/

I am now starting on my second machine, a 1980 Bally Skateball.

#12 8 years ago

I think I'll just go ahead and order a modern replacement power supply. I love tinkering and won't be too upset if it doesn't solve all my problems. I am just honestly surprised by my family's reaction to my acquisition of my first pinball. Even my mother in law wants to play it! To save the time and possible trouble I figure it's worth the extra cost. Capacitor and other part kits are backordered on the websites I've found.

I will post updates in the future. Thank you all for your guidance, I really appreciate it!

#13 8 years ago

Disconnect all the cables from the display, replace the fuse again and power up. If it blows again it's the power supply. If not, it's the display (probably).

You have another couple of options for fixing. The high voltage section is prone to blowing in an old machine. A number of vendors sell kits containing just the components you need to rebuild it. Given you're obviously handy with a soldering iron, should be an easy 'tinker'. Less than $4. Worth a go.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=wan-hvp-kit

Replacing the power supply with a more modern version is also an option, as you suggest. The final more expensive option is to replace all the displays with LED versions, lots of vendors for those. They don't require the high voltage supply and run from the 5v (and some 12v) in the machine. If you fit those, you can remove the 100v fuses. You're likely looking around $200 for new displays though, so the other options are cheaper.

#14 8 years ago

I've had about a half a dozen system 11's. The rebuild kit works just fine, but you are getting ahead of yourself. You really should isolate and diagnose before throwing $$$

It may not be the PS. It could be a bad connector or shorted connector going to the display. Your problem is very isolated. Take the thirty minutes or so to diagnose. I have the afternoon off and will look at my F14/schematics today and post a bit more detail n where and how to check the voltages, etc.

As Snux has mentioned remove the display and fire it up. That will help rule out the display. If you are going to order new parts replace the ribbon cable going to the display as a precaution. They tend to be problematic. Luckily there aren't too many on the 11's.

#15 8 years ago

Ok great advice you two. I'll try out your suggestions.

#16 8 years ago

If you do need and get a new modern power supply, send the old one in for repair and keep as a backup. Or see if the place you buy the new one will take it as trade in or fix it and you can sell it...

#17 8 years ago

Unfortunately I'm out of 1/4 amp fuses and so is Radio shack. I'll have to track some down before I get to try and see if it still blows out with the display board disconnected. The closest I have is a half amp fuse.

#18 8 years ago

I would recommend getting one of these from Great Plain. They are handy to have on hand if you have a pin. Also GPE is an excellent source for many pinball bits. I use them quite a bit. Great prices on the components and low shipping.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=56

This thread goes into how to make your own. It will save you from blowing up fuses while you figure out what is going on.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/making-and-using-a-fuse-breaker

#19 8 years ago

Woah! Yet again my mind is warped by your knowledge of these things. No joke. If I knew these "fuse breakers" existed I would have bought one before I ever had a use for it. That is really cool.

I hope Harbor Freight has something like this, I'm heading there tomorrow for an unrelated project ...

#20 8 years ago

Posting this pic as a "before" picture. She'll be patched up and running right soon enough.

IMAG0969_(resized).jpgIMAG0969_(resized).jpg

#21 8 years ago
Quoted from Zombiepower66:

Unfortunately I'm out of 1/4 amp fuses

If you're just wanting to see if the power supply will blow with the display disconnected, you can use the 1/2 amp. If the power supply is bad, it'll probably blow the 1/2 amp too. Those breakers are cool though, one of the things that you don't need very often but are great when you're trying to dig around a knotty problem.

#22 8 years ago

Half amp fuse does NOT blow with the display board disconnected. I just checked it.

#23 8 years ago
Quoted from Zombiepower66:

Nice! I've been trying to figure out how exactly to test the + and - 100 volts. I can't find any info on where all the test points are.

*** Williams System 11 Power measurements and test points ***

Logic power
MPU IJ17 Pins 4,5,6 = +5.03 VDC @8.1 mV AC ripple
U26/U27 ROM Pin 1 = +4.91 VDC

Audio power
MPU IJ17 Pin 9 = -14.04 VDC (Unregulated)
MPU IJ17 Pin 8 = +12.02 VDC (Unregulated)
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 8 -13.9 VDC @250 mV AC ripple
Audio board U11 (U17 on Sys11B) Pin 4 +11.8 VDC @50 mV AC ripple

Controlled lamp power
PS 3J4 pins 5,6,7,8 (Sys11A) or backbox bridge 6BR1 (Sys11B)= +15VDC to +18VDC nominal.

General illumination power
PSU 3J8 (Sys11A) or Interconnect board output 2P7 (Sys11B) = 4.5 VAC to 6.3 VAC nominal

Display power
3J5 pin 3 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 3 (Sys11B) = +90 to +110VDC nominal
3J5 pin 4 (Sys11A) or 3J2 pin 1 (Sys11B) = -90 to -110VDC nominal

Flipper power
Game specific@flipper supply board outputs= +65 to +75 VDC nominal

Solenoid power
PS 3J3 pins 6,7,8 (Sys11A) +32 to +35 VDC
Interconnect board F1/F3 (Sys11B) +41 VDC
Interconnect board F4 (Sys11B) +75VDC

NOTES
Reference test games used:
Williams Pinbot - System 11A/D-8345-549 PS
Williams F-14 Tomcat - System 11A/Rottendog WDP-011A PS
Williams Taxi - System 11B/PinScore PJ-12246 Rev. B PS

#24 8 years ago
Quoted from Zombiepower66:

Half amp fuse does NOT blow with the display board disconnected. I just checked it.

Nice work! Check the connectors and the pins going to and from the display board. See if anything is broken or a miss. The ribbon cables are notorious for acting up. At this point I just get new ribbon cables whenever I pick u a new machine. I was tracing an issue for days on my BSD that turned out to be a bad cable.

#25 8 years ago

Thanks to Wayout440 for pointing me in the right direction with the test points.

Nerdygrrl I'll track down a new ribbon cable. It's worth a few bucks to not have to worry about it being flaky. Do you have a link to the ones you buy to replace them? If not I'm sure I can track one down.

#26 8 years ago

Marco has them for 10.00. And you can stock up on some fuses too.

#27 8 years ago

Marco or Great Plains. Great Plains tends to be cheaper on both fuses and cables.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/categories.asp?cat=99

#28 8 years ago

Update: tested all points on the main power supply. Points are all within specifications! Time to start replacing ribbon cables and looking closer at the udn7180 on the display board itself. I've googled display boards that are out gassed and mine just don't show those symptoms. They say there should be little sparkles on the displays. I don't see that. Maybe I'm missing something though. Took the best picture I could of my display.

IMAG1013_(resized).jpgIMAG1013_(resized).jpg

IMAG1011_(resized).jpgIMAG1011_(resized).jpg

#29 8 years ago

Actually, spoke too soon. I'm not getting any reaction when I tested the +100v at the power supply. I'm not sure what I was thinking. It just gives me nothing.

#30 8 years ago

Ok, on pinwiki I see that it says that getting no results when testing the +100v section could mean 5 different things are occurring. Open diode at d3, open q1, q2, r1, and or shorted zener diodes zr1 or zr2. Are all these on the main power supply? Feeling lost again. I'll keep researching.

#31 8 years ago

I am getting +100 volts at the test point with the display disconnected. With it hooked up I get nothing. Does this sound to you guys like a short in my display? Still confused but chugging right along. Thanks everyone!

#32 8 years ago
Quoted from Zombiepower66:

I am getting +100 volts at the test point with the display disconnected. With it hooked up I get nothing. Does this sound to you guys like a short in my display? Still confused but chugging right along. Thanks everyone!

Yes, it does. Most likely (not certainly) some part on that display board is a lot warmer than it should be when you have that board in. You might try, very carefully, touching some parts on the board.

#33 8 years ago

Ok Guys I took the plunge and just bought a repro display board. IT WORKS! Well mostly... I has two led sections that are much brighter than the others. One seems to be stuck on somewhat and the other directly underneath is just really bright when its lit. Is there a way to adjust this at all? Or did I get a bugged out board that I should send back? What do you all think? All you guys advice has been extremely helpful so far, thank you all so much!

#34 8 years ago

It's the u6 and u106 segments that are too bright.

IMAG1023_(resized).jpgIMAG1023_(resized).jpg

#35 8 years ago

Which display did you buy?

#36 8 years ago

Ahh yeah, sorry I forgot to mention. It's the rottendog "dis200". I knew I was gonna have to do a little work to get it to line up properly with the speaker grill panel since I have an early model F14 but everything else said it was plug and play 100% otherwise electronically compatible.

I'm fine with drilling a few holes and working to get it all mounted and lined up but does anybody know if this is normal?

#37 8 years ago

I would return it and buy the Xpin displays. I installed one in my F14 today in under 5 minutes and it looks amazing. He has a version for both the early and late machines. No modification required.

http://www.xpinpinball.com/shop/catalog/xp-wms11415

http://www.xpinpinball.com/shop/catalog/xp-wms11610

#38 8 years ago

You may want to take a reading and see how much juice they are getting. It could be related to what took out your previous display. It could not. I wouldn't do this though if you are planning on returning/exchanging it.

2 weeks later
#39 8 years ago

Hey everyone, I finally got my hands on a second display board and its doing the same thing. Should I assume its a problem on the cpu board?

In a separate issue I am also having problems with my pop bumper. It seems to have locked on and caused a lot of damage at some point. I rebuilt it with a new coil, sleeve and diode this morning and can only get it to fire if I short it to ground. The old one was all bound up and the sleeve was a bit melted. I started doing research on the subject. I was lead to examine the cpu board and what do you know, the transistor Q69 looks all burnt up. Im not sure when this all happened, I know it worked at some point after I got the machine I remember how much it startled me when I was cleaning the playfield and I bumped it. I know it quit working before I ever even poked around under the playfield. Any ideas what I should do?

#40 8 years ago
Quoted from Zombiepower66:

Hey everyone, I finally got my hands on a second display board and its doing the same thing. Should I assume its a problem on the cpu board?

While never impossible to have two failed display boards, very unlike - but it is common to have problems caused by failed ribbon cables. If you have already ruled out the cable, I would say you have a problem with the CPU board.

Quoted from Zombiepower66:

In a separate issue I am also having problems with my pop bumper. It seems to have locked on and caused a lot of damage at some point. Any ideas what I should do?

The *usual* pattern of failure for these is the switch gets stuck on for one reason or another (bumped,improperly gapped) and this holds the pop on when it is supposed to be momentary (early System 11s do not have the special solenoids under CPU control). The high current for too long shorts and burns up the driver transistor - sometimes hot enough to take out traces and possibly burn the board. If you are lucky in this type of situation, just the driver transistor and/or coil fries (though sometimes other problems can result in the same type of symptom). Usually just a clean replacement of the driver & the predriver transistor for that solenoid channel resolves the problem. Some helpful info here:

3b. When thing don't work: Checking Transistors/Coils (locked on coils)
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index1.html

1 week later
#41 8 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The *usual* pattern of failure for these is the switch gets stuck on for one reason or another (bumped,improperly gapped) and this holds the pop on when it is supposed to be momentary (early System 11s do not have the special solenoids under CPU control). The high current for too long shorts and burns up the driver transistor - sometimes hot enough to take out traces and possibly burn the board. If you are lucky in this type of situation, just the driver transistor and/or coil fries (though sometimes other problems can result in the same type of symptom). Usually just a clean replacement of the driver & the predriver transistor for that solenoid channel resolves the problem.
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index1.html

That's exactly what happened. Burned the coil and the driver. I pulled the motherboard and replaced transisters and my pop bumper is like new again. Thank you for assuring me I was headded in the right direction Wayout440

#42 8 years ago

I guess since the machine is close to 100% now in my book I just need a few suggestions about how to get the display board working properly.

I don't mind tracking down a bunch of parts and just rebuilding the display sections of the motherboard. I am lost at where to go next in my troubleshooting.

Again u6 and u106 segments on my display are too bright and they display gibberish at improper times. I'll try what ever you all suggest. I can't believe I've fixed and learned so much already so far. I really appreciate your help.

#43 8 years ago
Quoted from Zombiepower66:

Again u6 and u106 segments on my display are too bright and they display gibberish at improper times.

OK, so you have power and this should measure ok, since you have many correct looking digits. Shift focus to this being a data problem. If I am current with what you have done so far, you've ruled out the display board and ribbon cable, and it appears to be a problem with the CPU, correct?

Next would be to look at the circuit output for data to the displays on the CPU board. Start with a thorough examination of J22 display data connector (look for cracked solder, cold solder, solder shorts etc...) Next I would shotgun replace the PIAs U41,U42. After that, all that is really left to check would be the SRC packs - there's three of them buffering the output of the PIAs before the data heads off the board to the displays. If it is still a problem, then you'd probably need to get a scope on those data lines after identifying which segments are the failures and matching it up to the notation on the schematics (it identifies on the schematics the segments by letters, such as 'j', 'k', 'dot' etc...)
Hopefully you won't need to go that far.

#44 8 years ago
Quoted from Zombiepower66:

Again u6 and u106 segments on my display are too bright

Check the outputs of U44 pins 8-15 with a logic probe. They should be high with low pulses. If one is stuck it wont pulse the display it will just stay on causing it to be brighter then the rest.

wayout has you pointed in the right direction, with out seeing the gibberish I cant narrow it down any further then U 41 or U42.

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