(Topic ID: 188155)

F-14 Tomcat Lower Diverter Stuck ON

By pookycade

6 years ago


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  • 23 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by GRUMPY
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 6 years ago

Ok, I'm at my wits end with this one, so any help appreciated. I had a friend help me replace the coil on the upper diverter. Unfortunately, he must have shorted something because Q77, Q79 as well as their associated 2N4401 transistors were scorched and several toasted resistors to go along with it. ZR8 was in ripped apart in two as was one of the caps that sits just to the left of U50. Super. So I pulled the thing out and replaced ZR8, the cap next to U50, Q77, Q79, the two associated 2N4401s, AND U50. I left the resistors going to the transistors in place as I measured resistance and they were measuring correct values. Fire it all back up and .... lower diverter still locked on and getting hot. I checked whether the replacement 2N4401s or TIP 122s are shot ... nope voltages on a diode checker are ok. Replaced U50 again in case I burnt it somehow. Lower diverter still locked on.

Does anyone have any advice, DMM steps to now follow, or perhaps schematics to look at here. I replaced all the standard culprits here that were all crispy black and not getting anywhere. I also checked traces on the board and they seem ok too. Did I possibly takeout something even further upstream of U50 perhaps. I cant leave on too long while diagnosing as I dont want to blow the coil back up again.

Just about to go pull the trigger on a Rottendog CPU as I'm outta ideas here.

#2 6 years ago

Did you replace the small predriver transistor? I think (76 78) I had same problem, had to replace q77,79 predriver and u50, while the Tip 122s are what it calls for, most upgrade to the better Tip 102s. Do you have a schematic?

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

So I pulled the thing out and replaced ZR8

This is for the upper coil. Did you check ZR7? Its for the lower coil. Also did you check the switch that activates the lower coil, It may be stuck closed. You should disconnect power to the lower coil while you are trouble shooting or you will burn up Q-79 again.

#4 6 years ago

Yes I did replace 76 and 78. No I didn't check ZR7 though it isn't in two pieces as ZR8 was. I will disconnect the lower diverter as you suggest and then check back in after some more poking around. Where is the switch that activates the lower coil ? Are you talking a physical relay below the playfield (that I was unaware of) or just the MPU board. I'm not clear how this thing is exactly wired here. I can trace out the electronics as I'm an electrical engineer but I have no schematic to actually go by.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

I didn't check ZR7 though it isn't in two pieces

99.9% of the time they look just like the day they were installed in 1987 even when bad. They explode when 70 volts are applied in stead of 5 volts.

Quoted from pookycade:I have no schematic to actually go by.

There is a manual you can download for free.
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/804/Williams_1987_F_14_Tomcat_Full_Manual.pdf

Quoted from pookycade:

Where is the switch that activates the lower coil ?

Page 48.

Quoted from pookycade:

Are you talking a physical relay below the playfield (that I was unaware of)

There are snubber relays below the p/f, but the lower diverter is controlled by special solenoid #6 directly.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

99.9% of the time they look just like the day they were installed in 1987 even when bad. They explode when 70 volts are applied in stead of 5 volts.

There is a manual you can download for free.
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/804/Williams_1987_F_14_Tomcat_Full_Manual.pdf

Page 48.

There are snubber relays below the p/f, but the lower diverter is controlled by special solenoid #6 directly.

Awesome ! Thanks so much for the help. Will report back after Allentown this weekend and a few more whacks at fixing it.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

99.9% of the time they look just like the day they were installed in 1987 even when bad. They explode when 70 volts are applied in stead of 5 volts.

There is a manual you can download for free.
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/804/Williams_1987_F_14_Tomcat_Full_Manual.pdf

Page 48.

There are snubber relays below the p/f, but the lower diverter is controlled by special solenoid #6 directly.

Ok, first the good. You nailed it. ZR7 a dead short. I feel embarrassed as an electrical engineer that I missed that one. Diverters now working perfectly. Yeah !

Now the bad. Pop bumper and right/left slings not working at all. Reading the schematic they go thru U45 not U50, and I checked all the ZR and also the associated TIP122. We are all good, no fire damage and correct voltages with diode checks. But the fact they are special solenoid switches as well is not a coincidence I imagine.

Now I did get a brief message at one point that U10 was bad but that hasn't come back on. It's a messy circuit diagram that I need to study a bit more.

Since you nailed the last one so well, can you hazard a guess at what is going on here ? I'll track down voltages on u50 next (input and output). I suspect that's the culprit which would be annoying since it's soldered to the board. However I suppose that would be better than U10 which I'd have to send to someone else to repair given how many pins we have here to desolder.

Thanks again for your help. At least it's semi functional finally.

#8 6 years ago

Ok more to add here. The reason they weren't firing is that the fuse below the playfield had blown. Replaced with another 5A fuse and it blows instantly. Replace with another higher 10A fuse and now when machine goes on I get pop bumper, left, and right sling all firing permanently on. So I'm guessing U45 is probably shot. Do you agree ? Or are all the zeners likel shot on the special solenoid even though they test by my diode tester as ok in circuit ? I assume it has to be one or the other and the single chip being shot is the most reductive single point failure theory here.

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

The reason they weren't firing is that the fuse below the playfield had blown.

That is where I was going to send you looking, but since you found it already you should know that it needs a 2.5 amp sb fuse.

Quoted from pookycade:Replaced with another 5A fuse and it blows instantly.

You should know this is a problem now, and not replace it.

Quoted from pookycade:Replace with another higher 10A fuse and now when machine goes on I get pop bumper, left, and right sling all firing permanently on.

All this is going to do is melt coils and burn more components on the CPU board.

Quoted from pookycade:So I'm guessing U45 is probably shot. Do you agree ?
I don't guess...... I troubleshoot then repair and then enjoy by playing pinball. You first need to remove that fuse because you know you can't fix it by over fusing. Purchase a logic probe and then I can help you troubleshoot this.

#10 6 years ago

Sheesh don't use a bigger fuse, thats just asking for trouble.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from crlush:

Sheesh don't use a bigger fuse, thats just asking for trouble.

I'm not going to leave it there. I just wanted to put something in to see what was going on. It blew so fast I couldn't tell which of those solenoids was actually on. Now I know the issue is that all those special solenoids (right/left sling, pop bumber) are permanently activated. Fuse has now been pulled so I can work on MPU.

#12 6 years ago

The first thing I would do is a resistance check from ground to the metal tab of Q-69, Q-71 and Q-75. If they are still original style TIP 122 you should have .5 meg or greater. If they are TIP102 you should see .9 meg and higher. If resistance is low then replace the driver and predriver and coil diode as a set. When the diode is off the coil you should check the coil resistance (23-800 coil is 4.2 ohms). After that is done its time to power up the game into attract mode. You need to check U-45 pins 5, 9 and 12 which should be high at this time, then activate each switch input (skirt for pop bumper) and the corresponding pin on U-45 will go low (pin 9). Once all 3 switch inputs have been checked and passed testing then check pins 6,8 and 11 of U-45 should be high, then start a game and all 3 pins should go low. If this checks out then recheck pins 5,9 and 12 now that a game is started, they should still be high. Now check pins 4, 10 and 13 they should be low when a game is started but go high when you activate a switch input. Start with this and let me know what turns up.

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

The first thing I would do is a resistance check from ground to the metal tab of Q-69, Q-71 and Q-75. If they are still original style TIP 122 you should have .5 meg or greater. If they are TIP102 you should see .9 meg and higher. If resistance is low then replace the driver and predriver and coil diode as a set. When the diode is off the coil you should check the coil resistance (23-800 coil is 4.2 ohms). After that is done its time to power up the game into attract mode. You need to check U-45 pins 5, 9 and 12 which should be high at this time, then activate each switch input (skirt for pop bumper) and the corresponding pin on U-45 will go low (pin 9). Once all 3 switch inputs have been checked and passed testing then check pins 6,8 and 11 of U-45 should be high, then start a game and all 3 pins should go low. If this checks out then recheck pins 5,9 and 12 now that a game is started, they should still be high. Now check pins 4, 10 and 13 they should be low when a game is started but go high when you activate a switch input. Start with this and let me know what turns up.

Ok all is well. Thank you for the help. Indeed U45 somehow got taken down in the process of U50 blowing up. Replaced U45 and everything else is ok. Thank god they put the slow blow fuse under the playfield for the pops and slings or else I'd be rebuilding the drivers for the slings and pop bumpers too. The game is now fully functional after I resocketed U45. So to summarize U45, U50, zeners for the two diverters, and 2N4401, TIP102 for the diverters all got blown up and needed replacing. But it all works for now. Soldering job left a little to be desired but its functional.

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Ok all is well. Thank you for the help.

No problem, glad every thing is fixed. Now play ball!

6 months later
#15 6 years ago

pookycade GRUMPY Hey there. I'm having a similar problem with my F-14 in that my coils on the diverter solenoid would instantly fire when I turned on the machine and if I didn't turn it off, they would literally burn up. I replaced the coils and the Tip122 transistors on both Q77/Q78 (or whichever were the ones tied to the lower/upper diverter coils). Now they don't fire at all during gameplay or solenoid test.

Just trying to track down what to try next since my initial repair seems to have done nothing except prevent the coils from firing at all.

I should mention that everything else is working as it should. Flippers, coils, etc. It's just these two darn diverter coils which really makes the game boring.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from dearliza98:

Just trying to track down what to try next since my initial repair seems to have done nothing except prevent the coils from firing at all.
I should mention that everything else is working as it should. Flippers, coils, etc. It's just these two darn diverter coils which really makes the game boring.

Instant firing on power up is usually a shorted Zener diode. Check the corresponding zener diode prior to doing any more testing, since that was the original issue.

Edit: If the Zener is good, you can try and manually short the TIP122 tab to ground quickly to actuate the diverter coil to rule out the TIP122/power side of things. If it does, then it is just the switching side of things, which would likely be the 7402 TTL.

Also, those Zener diodes in that section are your line of defense for accidental higher voltage dumping onto the logic side of the board. Those are supposed to dump offending higher voltages to ground. So they're pretty important in protecting your MPU from a massive cascade failure. The fear of those zeners being in an open state is legit.

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from dearliza98:

Now they don't fire at all during gameplay or solenoid test.

When you replace a driver (TIP122) you should always replace the corresponding predriver (2n4401) also. To do further testing you should buy a logic probe. Its also a good idea to install a under play field fuse for each of the diverter coils with a 1.5 amp sb fuse.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

When you replace a driver (TIP122) you should always replace the corresponding predriver (2n4401) also. To do further testing you should buy a logic probe. Its also a good idea to install a under play field fuse for each of the diverter coils with a 1.5 amp sb fuse.

About the fuses on the diverters, if you added them on yours would you mind sharing some pics, I have had diverter problems on mine and while I know how to fix it, I never figured out why it happened, and have read a bunch of other people that have had the exact same problem.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from crlush:

About the fuses on the diverters, if you added them on yours would you mind sharing some pics, I have had diverter problems on mine and while I know how to fix it, I never figured out why it happened, and have read a bunch of other people that have had the exact same problem.

I've always mounted screw-on type fuse holders just below each diverter/special solenoid controlled part. I'll usually cut the power wire about 6-8"from the coil. There is almost always plenty of room to install them without worrying about the tabs touching anything.

Another option would be to install Andrew's special solenoid saver PCB that goes in the backbox. http://nvram.weebly.com/repair--conversion-kits.html

#20 6 years ago

Here you go. Not the best pic because I have black lighting in my game room. Im with thedefog in that I normally use fuse holders that screw to the pf but F 14 is real busy so I used this type. These crimp right to the control wire in less than a minute.

20171117_104143 (resized).jpg20171117_104143 (resized).jpg

#21 6 years ago

Cool thanks everyone. I will replace the corresponding predriver and see what happens. I think I can also handle the 1.5SB fuse holders. Thanks again.

1 week later
#22 6 years ago

Wanted to thank everyone for the assistance. It was an issue on the MPU and it made it's way through several transistors. All repaired and working now!

#23 6 years ago

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