(Topic ID: 88480)

f-14 system 11

By Jinx37620

9 years ago


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#1 9 years ago

Has anyone ever experienced an f-14 or other system 11 game randomly tilting? I even unhooked all of the tilt switches. I thought it may be in the mpu board so I replaced with a rottendog mpu still does it !! there are no wire hacks that I can see and I have looked very close! everything appears to be in the right place. could this be a switch issue?
Frustrated

#2 9 years ago
Quoted from Jinx37620:

Has anyone ever experienced an f-14 or other system 11 game randomly tilting? I even unhooked all of the tilt switches. I thought it may be in the mpu board so I replaced with a rottendog mpu still does it !! there are no wire hacks that I can see and I have looked very close! everything appears to be in the right place. could this be a switch issue?
Frustrated

This might be a stupid question but did you get to all of the tilting mechs? How many are there I think three?

#3 9 years ago

Replacing MPUs isolates the issue to the wiring on the PF and cabinet. Sounds like you have a broken, missing, or short circuit around the diode somewhere.

How I would recommend starting is to get your switch matrix chart in front of you. Put the game in single switch test. Go down and across the same row/column the offending tilt switch is on testing each switch one at a time. Look for switches double registering, mis registering, etc. Next mash on your flipper buttons for a minute and see if you get any phantom closures. You may need to temporally insulate flipper score initial entry switch matrix switches mounted with the EOS switch stack (be careful not to short the solenoid voltage). Bang on the PF with you hand to see if any register.

You hope to get some good evidence doing the testing above so you know where to look under the PF.

#4 9 years ago

Go in test menu and do a switch test. Physically press each switch in the game (playfield, coin door, etc.) and see if everything looks like its working. If you have flaky results, you may have a diode broken off of a switch row or column related to the tilt switches, thereby giving phantom tilts.

See manual to look at the switch matrix chart to see which switches are related to the tilts.

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/804/Williams_1987_F_14_Tomcat_Full_Manual.pdf

#5 9 years ago

I just had a random tilt problem on my F14. However, my issue was due to a damaged resistor/capacitor pack on the mainboard. Since you said you replaced the board and still have the issue, it is highly unlikely it is that, so it has to be on the wire harness/switches instead.

Remember f14 has 4 tilt switches. Two on the left side of the cab -- the plumb bob and the roller (incline) ball. Then there is one underneath the left front of the playfield, and finally one more on the coin door by the lock.

Put electrical tape around all of those contacts, or better yet, pull one of the two wires of each and cover up and see if it still does it.

Here is my thread about the random tilts on the original board and how I found and fixed it there:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/f-14-multi-issuesno-musicrandom-tiltsright-sling-12-work1-switch-column-out

#6 9 years ago

I would say that 9 of 10 times the random tilt s on System 11 are usually not related at all to the actual tilt mechs. Most of the time it's another switch shorting closed. The next most common is the resistor pack on the switch matrix circuitry. Have you done those switch tests thoroughly and repeatedly as the others in this thread have suggested?

#7 9 years ago

mine was a bad scrc6 resistor.i change it and good bye tilt problem.

#8 9 years ago

if you do a search I remember reading on a few posts on hear about the same issue that turned out had nothing to do with the tilt mechs.

#9 9 years ago

As wayout stated, probably not related to the tilt switches at all. Most likely you have a shorted diode on another switch somewhere. If that's the case it takes three simultaneous switch closures, with one of the three having a shorted diode, to cause a phantom closure on a non-related switch.

You will need to pay special attention to where all balls are when the tilt occurs along with the last switch hit. You will probably have three balls parked and the one in play will hit a switch that tilts the machine. That's the hardest one because the tilt will catch you off guard. When it tilts, immediately turn the machine off so you can account for the location of all balls.

Then see if you can duplicate it by getting all balls into position and hitting the offending switch. Let us know if you find something.

#10 9 years ago

Also, are we talking Tilt as in TILT comes up in the displays, or does the machine simply shut down the game and go into game over? Just making sure on semantics as some folks refer to a full reboot as a tilt.

#11 9 years ago

No just tilt. I checked all switches yesterday and only found the right sling was not registering I made an adjustment and now it is registering and played several games without the machine tilting then it started tilting again ? I did another switch test and all are registering now I'm really stumped !!

#12 9 years ago

Sometimes these very intermittent switch problems can be difficult to track down. It does seem like a regular tilt (switch activated) rather than the slam tilt. Please make sure that all the tilt mechanisms are disabled (i.e. separate the contacts on the pf and coin door slam tilts, remove ball from roll tilt and remove pendulum from the pendulum tilt.) The idea here is to make certain that a mechanical motion, or vibration, is not activating any of the tilt mechs. You would want to rock/bump the machine fairly hard to check for a mechanical related tilt. Then you can be more certain that if it is still tilting, it is an electronic failure. In which case, read on for those causes:

"Phantom Switch Closures: a Shorted Switch". http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index3.htm#switch

A common failure on these System 11s are the resistor packs. If the game is aged and you have the CPU board out you may as well replace the following for long term reliability of the switch interpretation:

SR9/SR10* = 1k ohms x 4 resistors isolated/discrete (8 pins). Used for the switch returns (rows). Mouser part# 652-4608X-102-1K. Easy to test in-circuit.
SR11* = 560 ohm x 9 resistors bussed (10 pins). Used for the switch returns (rows). Mouser part# 652-4310R-101-560. Easy to test in-circuit.
SR3/SR15/SR17* = 4.7k ohms x 9 resistors bussed (10 pins). Used for the switch drives (columns). Mouser part# 652-4310R-101-472.
SRC6* (1k/470 pfd) = resistor/capacitor network for switch matrix columns. Has 1k ohm resistors with 470 pF caps in a single package. Can not be tested in-circuit. Replace with a 1k ohm x 9 resistor bussed (10 pins) with no capacitors. Cut off pin 10 (important!), and install pin 1 (common) in pin 1 of the board. The cut pin 10 of the resistor network does not go into the board's pin 10 position. See notes below for more info on this. Mouser part# 652-4610X-1LF-1K.

#13 9 years ago

Remember the OP posted that they replaced the MPU with a new Rottendog. Therefore the problem cannot be on the board itself. It's somewhere in the wiring/switches themselves. So testing and replacing components on the repro MPU is going to be fruitless.

#14 9 years ago
Quoted from Pac-Fan:

Remember the OP posted that they replaced the MPU with a new Rottendog. Therefore the problem cannot be on the board itself. It's somewhere in the wiring/switches themselves. So testing and replacing components on the repro MPU is going to be fruitless.

Ah yes, thanks for pointing that out. Most likely a flakey switch diode or shorting switch somewhere on the playfield.

#15 9 years ago

I have repeatedly checked every switch on this machine they all register fine. I have disconnected all tilt mechs it tilts. I have connected all tilt mechs it tilts. replaced MPU and power supply boards it tilts. I re-installed old boards it tilts. I may have narrowed it down to holding both of the flipper buttons down and the ball hits the right sling shot it tilts. I am not sure what to replace both flippers are new (rebuild kit with new switches) shouldn't be those. It tilted before flippers were rebuilt and after I guess the only logical step is to replace diodes on the sling shot switches but they show to be fine in switch edges.

#16 9 years ago

Seemingly unrelated switches can cause phantom switch closures. They might even pass the switch test. If you can definitely reproduct the tilt with the right sling, apply this method. I've plugged in the numbers for your right sling:

Once the switch is found, go to the game manual and find the switch's number, row number, and column number. Say for example, switch 58 Right sling (column 8, row 2) is causing the phantom closure. Now get the other three switches that make up the remaining corners of the "square" of the row and columns. First get the reverse switch number, switch 16 Ball shooter lane (column 2, row 8). Then get the other two "corner" switches: switch 10 Outhole (column 2, row 2), and switch 64 *NOT used* (column 8, row 8). The switch short will probably be one of these 3 switches.

If it is not one of these three switches, you might find it more reproducable with either flipper - because each has an EOS switch in the switch matrix. Then you would apply the same theory above using each EOS switch number set to find the four associated switches in the square. And it could be a switch in the square formed by any of the tilt switch numbers.

Hopefully you don't have to go that far replacing diodes and such to find the problem. The cause is likely either a switch shorting or a flakey diode. I'd probably start with the right sling switch and diode first. See what happens from there.

#17 9 years ago

Yep -- it's a broken / lifted (open) diode somewhere in the same row/column of the tilts. You're getting a phantom closure due to the matrix. Check every one of those switches that are inline with the 4 tilts and stating obviously with one of the EOS's. I included a chart of which switches to check. Put your multi meter on diode check and disconnect both the row and column switch matrix harnesses from the CPU. You will rather quickly find the bad one.

Purple: Possible Tilt switches
Red: Known triggers for the problem (left/right EOS, right sling)
Blue: Potentially affected columns
Green: Potentially affected rows.

Start with the Red ones, then the corner of the 4 red ones (Outhole #10) as suggested above. Then if not found, start checking all the others on the same rows/columns as those. Good luck!

SwitchMatrixEdit.jpgSwitchMatrixEdit.jpg

#18 9 years ago

I think I may have found it !! someone had the wires on the end of stroke switch on the left flipper soldered to the wrong leaf. so when I replaced the flippers and switches I just soldered them in the same place they had them. I moved to the correct position and played 5 or 6 games without a tilt !! thanks so much for all of your help JW

#19 9 years ago

This machine is now for sale or trade so I can move on to the next rescue !! I have about $1800.00 invested and would be interested in a trade for an Evel Knievel, Kiss, Harlem Globetrotters or any bally or Williams machine 1990 and newer in need of repair or moderate restoration.

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from pinballfan:

mine was a bad scrc6 resistor.i change it and good bye tilt problem.

This is exactly what I did as well, never tilted in the two years I had it after that.

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