(Topic ID: 66810)

F-14 flippers working in attract mode


By papazit1963

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 27 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by Marcus
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 6 years ago

I recently started a restore on an F-14 Tomcat that I picked up a few months ago. One strange issue that I can't figure out is the flippers all work in attract mode. Even before starting a game. Anyone know what would be the cause of this? Otherwise all else seems normal, other than a couple fried coils and associated transistors. Thanks,

Mike

#2 6 years ago

I dont have my manual handy, and can't spend the time to look on ipdb at the moment (at work), but I think relay K1 controls the power for the flippers.

Start investigating around that.

#3 6 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I dont have my manual handy, and can't spend the time to look on ipdb at the moment (at work), but I think relay K1 controls the power for the flippers.
Start investigating around that.

Yes this is correct. With the game off ohm out IJ19 1&2 and IJ20 1&2 to ground. If there is a dead short, the relay K1 is probably stuck closed mechanically. Then ohm out emitter to collector on Q67, if this is shorted then the relay is being pulled in by a failed Q67. There are other not so common causes, so if it is not either of those, then with the power on I would start by looking at the signal to Q67 to see if it is actually turning on and off when the game is told to start. If this doesn't change state, then the problem is likely upstream before Q67, if it does change state the Q67/downstream. Good luck.

#4 6 years ago

Great advice. Thanks! I'll check it out as soon as I get a chance.

Mike

#5 6 years ago

You should hear the physical clicking on of the flipper enable relay when you start a new game up, so if you're not hearing any clicking, that answers that and follow what wayout440 says. Also check the housing on the relay. Sometimes they get moved a little out of position and it'll keep them from clicking on-off and in some cases will burn them out, as was the case on my laser war machine. Had to install a new relay, but generally you get the opposite effect of what you're saying (flipper enable never clicks on).

#6 6 years ago

This relay you guys are talking about, is that on one of the snubber boards under the pf. Or in the backbox?

Mike

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from papazit1963:

This relay you guys are talking about, is that on one of the snubber boards under the pf. Or in the backbox?
Mike

Should be the relay located on the MPU board.

#8 6 years ago

OK. I'll check on that. Thanks!

Mike

#9 6 years ago

I remember that about that F14 when I went to look at it. Thought that was kinda weird....!

#10 6 years ago

That's funny Mike. Yea, just getting started on this project. Nothing majorly wrong with this game other than a couple locked solenoids and a couple fried transistors so far. Overall in pretty good shape. You'll have to come visit, drink a beer and play it when I get done! Still haven't had a chance to check the above mentioned items yet. But I'll report back when I figure it out. I hate incomplete repair posts that just leave you hanging with no solution.

Mike

#11 6 years ago

You can drink beer in your computer store?

#12 6 years ago

Only on Sundays when we're closed... Having our first pinball party/tourney this Sunday! Of course--officially closed to the public...

#13 6 years ago

So, here's my results from the above mentioned testing that wayout suggested:

No shorts at j19 1,2 or j20 1,2. Also Q67 tested bad in circuit but good off the board. I replaced it just in case. The relay (K1) does not make any clicking noise by ear or while holding it and powering on the game. It does make a slight click when powering off the game. Does this all point to a failed relay? I'm familiar with other relay clicks and this click is very slight. Probably can't even hear it, just barely feel it. I'm guessing failed or stuck relay. Opinions please. Also, if you agree, where's the best place to get this part? Thanks again guys!

Mike

#14 6 years ago

When I power mine on while holding the relay I can definitely feel the click - it is small but it is there. But no short at J19 J20 to ground when the power off doesn't really support stuck relay contacts. The game on pulling in the contacts during attract mode would suggest something else is turning on K1.

I would recommend to back up and check the solenoid side first to be certain.

First use your DMM to measure resistance (game off) from the anode side of D3 to ground. You should get a slowly rising resistance from around 100-150 ohms that creeps upward.
Then with the game on measure DC voltage on the anode side of D3 (non band side) directly above the relay. You should have 5VDC there when the game is in attract mode, and should drop to nearly 0V when you press the start button. If you don't have 5VDC on the anode side of D3 the problem isn't the relay. If you do have the 5VDC at that point I would just replace the relay.

#15 6 years ago

My flippers worked in attract mode, thought it was a stuck solenoid but turned out to be a bad IC at u50 and transistor and predriver for the upper ball diverter, not sure if it has anything to do with yours but i have read a lot about f-14 having board trouble in the upper and lower ball diverter.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

When I power mine on while holding the relay I can definitely feel the click - it is small but it is there. But no short at J19 J20 to ground when the power off doesn't really support stuck relay contacts. The game on pulling in the contacts during attract mode would suggest something else is turning on K1.
I would recommend to back up and check the solenoid side first to be certain.
First use your DMM to measure resistance (game off) from the anode side of D3 to ground. You should get a slowly rising resistance from around 100-150 ohms that creeps upward.
Then with the game on measure DC voltage on the anode side of D3 (non band side) directly above the relay. You should have 5VDC there when the game is in attract mode, and should drop to nearly 0V when you press the start button. If you don't have 5VDC on the anode side of D3 the problem isn't the relay. If you do have the 5VDC at that point I would just replace the relay.

OK. With power off I get 70 ohms on anode side of D3....no creeping, steady 70 ohm. With power on I get 0vdc on anode side, but 5vdc on band side. Same results after starting a game. IC bad like crlush states?

Mike

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from crlush:

My flippers worked in attract mode, thought it was a stuck solenoid but turned out to be a bad IC at u50 and transistor and predriver for the upper ball diverter, not sure if it has anything to do with yours but i have read a lot about f-14 having board in the upper and lower ball diverter.

Hmmm. My bottom diverter coil is melted and associated transistor and pre-driver is fried. I wonder if this is the same problem? Bad ic at u50?

Mike

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from papazit1963:

Hmmm. My bottom diverter coil is melted and associated transistor and pre-driver is fried. I wonder if this is the same problem? Bad ic at u50?
Mike

Probably U50, just shotgun replace if you feel lucky, but I would make sure the problem doesn't extend further upstream myself.

#19 6 years ago

If you replace the ic at u50 it wouldnt hurt to put a socket in there.

#20 6 years ago

I have a high speed where the right flippers operate in attract mode. The machine works perfect otherwise. All switches and coils work/test good. Game plays great. No diverter problems. A local operator said there might be an issue with the relay or something was wired around the relay on MPU.

Not hijacking here, just watching...

#21 6 years ago

Yea, wayout, I'm putting together an order and I will include the ic at u50 and the 7406 at u56. Pretty much everything except the PIA. This should get me going. If not I'll replace the PIA.

crlush--for sure socketing these guys too.

TVP--sounds like the same issue as my F-14. Stay tuned and hopefully we'll figure this out. I'll update this post when I get it all working.

Mike

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from TVP:

I have a High Speed where the right flippers operate in attract mode. The machine works perfect otherwise. All switches and coils work/test good. Game plays great. No diverter problems. A local operator said there might be an issue with the relay or something was wired around the relay on MPU.
Not hijacking here, just watching...

Correct, if the problem is isolated to the flippers in your case - if it doesn't bother you to not have the game work perfectly as intended and there are no other problems it is perfectly fine to leave it alone. In Papazit1963s case he has a few other issues that may or may not be related. U50 feeds some other circuits and could be related to other problems. I think it is a good idea to track it down and resolve it in his case.

#23 6 years ago

Got all my parts ordered from Marco last night. Hoping this fixes it! If not, I'll replace the PIA and/or the relay at K1. Thanks for all the help guys!

Mike

#24 6 years ago

Ok. Swapped out my fried solenoids at yagov kicker and lower diverter, then swapped out both u50 and u56--with new sockets of course. Reinstalled the board and BINGO! EVERYTHING WORKS! There is obviously some connection between u50/56 and the diverters. Someone above had the same problem, only with the upper diverter and the flippers working in attract mode. Thank you one and all that helped me out with this. This was my most extensive board repair to date and I couldn't be happier. Only bad news is I don't know for sure which chip was bad. U50 or U56. My guess is U50. Cant wait to start playing some F-14 now! Thanks again,

Mike

#25 6 years ago

Congrats! Nothing like a good game of F-14!

#26 6 years ago

Cool glad you got it working!

5 years later
#27 9 months ago

I recently bought a F-14 with same problem, flippers working in attract mode. Changed relay K1. Problem still there. Changed U50 with new IC SN7402N - problem solved!!

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