Extra Balls problem with Big Time


By tnbugman

2 months ago


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  • Latest reply 2 months ago by baldtwit
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#1 77 days ago

I love these damned bingos ...

I retrieved a Big Time from beyond the grave, and all is working except the Extra Balls feature. It *was* working fine earlier, so I must have done something to break it, and now I can't fix it again.

At extra ball time, before the yellow button is pushed, the anti-cheat relay is all that is closed.

After pushing the yellow button, the Extra Ball light comes on, and the extra ball play and anti-cheat relay are closed.

But, as soon as the coin is dropped in, the game stops. No relays are closed at all (including no anti-cheat), but now the EB #1 and EB #2 trip relays are closed.

Pushing the yellow button again does nothing.

Dropping another coin resets the game.

Anybody got any ideas or tips for me about this one? It's the last thing on this machine ... Thanks in advance, guys ...

#2 77 days ago
Quoted from tnbugman:

I love these damned bingos ...

Me too.

It sounds like you have a short, probably in your Extra ball unit step up coil.

To find out quickly, desolder one lug from the eb unit and get to the same point and see if the anti-cheat unlatches. The anti-cheat releasing tells me that your 50v line is sagging. Since nothing else is going wrong, my guess is that your main power path is fine, so you're left with a short in either the eb unit itself, the eb step up coil, or the trip coil for both eb trips. (there is only one trip relay).

Start with the easiest thing and desolder one lug (cap the wire so it doesn't hit something else) and try. If the game works and allows more than one coin to drop for extra balls, then your coil is probably bad.

Check for obvious mechanical problems by stepping the unit manually to each position and reset.

#3 77 days ago

Wow BingoPodCast, that is some pretty fast and amazing debugging from afar!

I unsoldered one of the leads to the Extra Ball Unit step up coil, and now the extra ball lights flash across in sequence as expected, for each new push of the yellow button and coin dropped.

I measured the resistance of the EBU step up coil, and it is only 6.5 ohms. That sounds low to me, like it is burnt/shorted.

Does that sound right to you also?

Where can I get a new one of these? Do you suppose Marco has them? Or Joe Blow?

Thanks a million for putting me on the right track so precisely ...

This is only my second bingo restoration, but I've already got the fever bad!

#4 77 days ago

Not a problem, happy to help - just glad I got it right.

The step up coils on most of the units are similar as far as resistance. Test the score unit stepup.

I -think- the coil is the same as the stepup for the score unit as well - which should be a 25-GG-7 for this era. Check your manual to make sure, or if the label is intact.

Those coils have a more modern substitution and are available from Marco or Pinball Resource. 'Bout $10-20.

What's your other bingo? I love 'em all.

#5 77 days ago

The Big Time manual says that the Extra Ball Unit Step Up coil is an A-18 25-H-7 coil. And mine actually says 25H7 printed in white on the black paper wrapper.

It looks pretty physically different from all of the other coils in the head.

I wonder what the resistance is supposed to be?

The other bingo that I restored is a Coney Island. The first with extra balls! I love the cabinet art on that one.

I'm also about to acquire a United Nevada soon ...

Also into EM woodrails and wedgeheads. I just restored an Exhibit "Contact," one of the first backglass animations. It is really fun to play also ...

and I love my Lady Robin Hood and my Rocket Ship also ...

#6 77 days ago

Regarding the coil - you can ensure it's not a short in the unit by playing a full game, pressing the yellow button, then going to the back and stepping the unit manually one step. If the anti-cheat releases (you may see a spark), then you know there's a problem with the unit - perhaps the spider is on upside-down.

Otherwise, replace the coil and you'll be good to go!

Nevada is a really fun game - you'll enjoy some of the differences between that United and the Bally games you've got.

Coney Island is absolutely gorgeous. Very nice collection.

#7 77 days ago

I pulled a 25-H-7 out of the pile and measured. It read 7.0, but it's untested. Chances are it's good, looked pretty clean with no burn marks.

#8 77 days ago
Quoted from okorange:

I pulled a 25-H-7 out of the pile and measured. It read 7.0, but it's untested. Chances are it's good, looked pretty clean with no burn marks.

Uh oh. Not a good sign. Definitely test the unit - step manually through step #4 (when it lifts the first EB).

#9 75 days ago

since I love being wrong, I'll toss out another possibility that explains all the symptoms, but wants to add one that hopefully wasn't noticed...CU cam 5B is stuck closed.

if that's the case, as soon as the EB trip relays tripped the EB step up coil powered and stayed powered, creating a steady high current drain on the transformer. Note the wipers haven't moved yet since they rotate when the coil unpowers.

when you closed the coin switch, other high power solenoids like the timer cams index and the mixer latch need to power, but you've starved them of current so as nick said the 50V power drooped and the anti-cheat let go.

if you do need a coil, the newer part number is BC-25-925...but your resistance isn't crazy low.

1 week later
#10 68 days ago

When I bought the new 25-H-7 coil from PBR, Steve Young mentioned that the numbers on the Bally coils from this era mean that it is wound with 25 AWG wire, on a size H coil spool form, and has a resistance of 7 ohms. When I heard this, I was afraid that the coil was not my problem. I *could* get the extra ball lights and could get the ball lifter to deliver the Extra Balls fine by manually operating the EB stepper with my finger, so I installed the new coil. Voila! I now have Extra balls feature working just fine again.
Thanks for all of the help on this, couldn't have done it without you guys

#11 68 days ago

One small problem remains with my #Big Time: Occasionally, when there are a lot of balls in holes, it awards credits randomly, often two or one, when it should not. Seems to be at the end of the search relay cycle.
Any suggestions for chasing down that one?

Also, I am now the proud owner of a United #Nevada. Haven't even refinished the legs and got them under it yet. And now I am *really* out of room, guess that I have a fairly severe version of this common bingo affliction that we all share ...

#12 68 days ago

Congrats on the pickup of Nevada! Cool game! I'll take a look and firm up my thoughts on the extra credits. Have you cleaned the replay counter disc, by any chance? @baldtwit you probably already know what's up - what do you think?

#13 65 days ago

for the spurious pay problem that needs a lot of balls in holes, the most likely thing is a switch gap too small on a search relay. Could also be wiper fingers misaligned or worn down on the search disc so one or more fingers is bridging rivets.

the wipers on the inner couple of rivet rings will bridge rivets in the same ring normally, but as you go further out it shouldn't happen.

you may need to wait for it to happen then go around to the back and manually reset the replay counter unit (assuming there's no valid payouts). Watch the search index unit to see if it's powering or starting to power.

the theory is that you are getting enough search relay switches closed at the same time to power the search index coil. That releases the replay cams and you get a credit or two, but when the search index grabs the ratchet to stop the wipers, the wipers are no longer on winning rivets, so the power goes away.

the search index coil should only power when you have a win that needs paying.

another thing you can do when it happens is carefully stick a business card between the 120V contacts on the tilt trip relay switch L2. That'll shut off the motors. Then slowly turn the search wipers with your hand and see if you can get the search index coil to power ... if you do, see which search relays are powering and work out from the chart on manual pages 162-163 which shouldn't be. Look at the wiper contacts while slightly turning them back and forth. You are trying to see which finger is causing the issue.

doing this you may be able to get the search index to power when it normally wouldn't due to the rotation speed of the wipers, so also spin the wipers back/forth around the trouble spot more quickly and see if the search index coil powers.

in other words, by spinning the wipers very slowly you can probably find tiny spots that cause 3+ adjacent search relays to power, but at normal operating speed the wipers sweep over those spots too quickly for the search relay or search index coils to energize.

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