Do you ever learn to stop accusing players of sandbagging? Apparently not. We won 2 of our 3 matches in the morning, but got swept badly in one of them and ended up in F Division. Who freely admitted to sandbagging? Please name names.

Believe me, I'm not playing pinball so that I can win an F Division trophy, and if you think other "pros" are doing so, I think you're delusional. Name names.

IMHO, events like this should work to make rules preventing skilled individuals from playing in low divisions >> that is if they have any interest in catering to the full spectrum of players and maintaining a more level divisional play/competition (which is a safe assumption given the structure of the event).

Even in the case that a bunch of experts coincidentally had really bad games in the morning, I could see it being worthwhile to make a lower cap to prevent top ranked people from competing in lower divisions in the afternoon. Heck, I even heard a few top ranked people toss out this idea last year, so it can't be all that bad.

What good would it do to name names? You are a smart guy, figure it out!

One person in particular admitted to me exactly what he was doing when asked. He obviously felt guilty because he was trying to justify his actions by providing examples of other players that were in divisions much lower than what their skill showed.

Others have insinuated that they think people were just joking about bad performances and making a funny that they were sand bagging. Maybe I somehow misunderstood some really bad sarcasm but when someone tells me directly I have no choice but to believe sandbagging happened at expobrawl 2012.

Who are you accusing? Me? Who? You're acting like a child, saying things happened without any sliver of proof. Answering my question with "Figure it out" is absolutely stupid.

I'm really tired of your accusations and feel like I have no reason to read anything you write from now on. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Whynow, if you're going to make repeated accusations, then say who it was. Sandbagging is not acceptable and these individuals need to be removed from this years' tournament if they intend to do so again.

Just hit the ignore button. There is no need for for you to read anything I have to say anyway since you obviously have already made up your mind on most things and can't see past your bias in order to have an actual discussion. You would rather make personal attacks than discuss the possibility that any pinball competition has possible flaws, room for improvement, or a chance to learn from past failures.

I am not accusing anyone. I am stating a fact. My proof is me and my word, which you have made clear that you don't believe. If you don't believe me then at least have the ability to address the fact that many other people from last year posted in this thread already talking about the sandbagging and qualifying shenanigans that occurred. Open your ears/eyes! I am not the only person that experienced expert level players throwing games and then competing in lower divisions.

High level players by their own admission sandbagged at expobrawl 2012 so they would be able to have a better shot at winning a $30 trophy. I know you are very uncomfortable with the term sandbagging, so I will call it "purposefully playing below their skill level in order to increase their chances of winning a lower division". Does that that make you feel better?

Either bring something worthwhile to the conversation or just hit the ignore button.

Did expobrawl 2012 have room for improvement? What would you change? What went well?

I emailed the organizers with feedback last year immediately following the event (not just about sandbagging but other suggestions for possible improvments). They know about the sandbagging. They are running the event and it is their decision on what to do about it. I am personally hoping there will be a few changes in place to both decrease wait times and and to increase fun across the board.

I have noticed that player ratings are now on the ExpoBrawl site and that teams are listed in order of descending rating. Maybe that is part of seeding now?

Yes, this clearly describes me, a personal attacker. Wasn't it you who accused a 10-year-old of gaming a tournament, and now you're accusing other people without even saying who they are? Yeah.

Did I say the system at Expobrawl is perfect? It isn't. I would not allow top teams to place into low divisions, I'd just exclude them from finals if they suck. You can look at the rules I helped write for Pinburgh if you'd like to see what I do to deal with this exact problem, and you can ask those who attended whether they felt the format and structure was fair to both top-tier and casual players.

Oh, so in that case you are not stating a fact, you are stating your opinion.

Who then? Point me to this discussion. So, you're saying you personally played an expert who threw games. Now we just keep guessing about who it was?

Multiple players? Who? What the heck, man. What upsets me about your accusation is not that you think someone has sandbagged, but by being vague, you effectively accuse an entire class of players and put the entire tournament in a negative light. I have already been accused of sandbagging at this tournament. It is not true. Our team played poorly. So, when you accuse someone (else?) of doing the same, my first reaction is that it is perception and not reality.

I'm not uncomfortable with the term, I'm uncomfortable with the baseless accusation. You're right about one thing, I'd be better off hitting the IGNORE button.

For the record expo does not make one dime or charge them for doing Expobrawl. They put alot of work into it and there other unseen expenses. It just another aspect of PINBALL expo which many enjoy.. MIKE PACAK

In my opinion the whole "seeding into a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h" divisions is silly. Just have the teams state which division they want to enter with Rating cutt-off's like Bowen does at PB. You only need 3-4 divisions. I know the idea is to give everyone a guaranteed 3 rounds but you can come pretty close just making it 2x elim.

Hopefully that is what Chris will go with, it is what I've recommended.

I wrote up a little process for Josh's Pinbrawl to allow him to easily add or remove teams and I just adapted it to Expobrawl and left the rating stuff in place. Beats editing a HTML file each time a new team is added!

What good would it do to name names? You are a smart guy, figure it out!

I'll play. Before we begin:

There were 19 teams that had at least one player in the IFPA top 500. Some had two.

• Out of these 19 teams, 13 teams ended up in A, B or C. These seem to be where should be.
• One team was in E and seems right based on what I know of those two players.
• Two teams were in D and E division and maybe should have been no worse than C and D. Escher and Donovan are competitive and no way would have tanked on purpose. Hell, Donovan was most likely pissed to be in D division. Tom and Bryan are less about competition and more about fun, but these guys are stand up dudes, so I'd rule them out.

This leaves three teams that should have been higher and were over 2+ divisions outside where I'd expect them to be. Todd and Bowen in F division, Don and Derek in E division and Ben and Jenn in G division.
It's ludicrous to think Todd and Bowen sandbagged, to suggest otherwise makes you lose all credibility.

This leaves four people. You said "a bunch" of them were doing it, so it must be these four. There really isn't anyone else left.

_{Post edited by Zaxxis : Formating}

I noticed the same thing and I hope it solves the problem. This way you dont have top 500 IFPA players playing each other in qualifying and accidentally ending up in a low division.

One problem though is when you have pairs of unevenly matched players. I had no friends going to Expo so they matched me up with a guy and I looked him up and he's like 500-something ranked and I'm 1768th Either way I'm just there to have fun, and hopefully not disgrace myself

Weren't qualifying matches only 2 games a piece?
And wasn't it a cumulative points based system?
You or partner or both could have a bad game and get ranked really strangely in the match play.
I got to lose to Elwin's team and then Bowen's team in match play after first tying the other team in very first match.
I actually enjoy playing tough competition.

My biggest complaint was waiting for matches, and a lot of this waiting was due to people waiting two to three teams deep for a machine during a match game. This is very unacceptable to me and also very inconsiderate to everyone else in the tournament. An hour or more between matches really reduces the fun factor for me and for several friends that have played in the tournament.

I do appreciate the time and effort the Ohio crew put in to run this tournament.

Just remember that this tournament is ultimately just for fun. No Wppr points and no cash payouts. Relax and try to enjoy and don't worry so much about sandbagging!

HEY EVERYONE! Just found out my Brawl partner isn't going to be able to make it. Anybody out there looking for a partner? Iv already registered but I dont think it would be a big problem getting the names switched. Last year I did pretty well with Art Dodd. We got into B division, you can check out my ranking on the site.

Damn somehow got paired up with an excellent player and we're the #15 seed 8-)
http://www.pinballrankings.com/eb/teams2.php

Looking forward to this next week!

We're in round two so far and it's been fun. Uploading some shots soon which should be on Pinball Soul or PinballNews.com as well! 6363_SPins_1046f.jpg