(Topic ID: 130534)
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Jurassic Park
Data East, 1993
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Lewisville, NC
Poor buyer, he could have bought a nib MET pro for $200 more instead of that turd.
Something is being overlooked here with regards to the increase in pin prices thats actually a postive, pinball was almost dead, ok Stern was making games but man it was close and now there are enough people who want these games that demand is out weighing supply, more and more boutique companies are rising up and while I don't want spend a lot on cash on these games from the past, I would rather that than being able to grab them before they get dumped as garbage because the hobby is so small and insignicant what other option is there. Pleanty of fun games at reasonable prices out there, who's to blame for MM being worth 10K or MB and many other B/W's 90's games? I really don't know there were that high when I started collecting and I don't think they should be. Anyway I'm just glad pinball is coming back and that games are still being produced. 
Quoted from kaneda:It's so much easier to get a thread going when you're negative, making assumptions, and saying something provocative in the headline. I should know. But it gets real old, real fast being a dick.
Seriously, I cannot believe I am saying this, but you are making real progress lately. I'm impressed.
Plenty of deals and cheap good games for everybody. People with in the hobby help each other out. I haven't looked on eBay for a pin in a long time. No need. Be cool treat people right make friends doesn't take long to get "connected". If it bothers you to look at eBay then stop looking on eBay. And I bet for every "bad" deal there is a good deal on there too.
Quoted from kporter946286:Plenty of deals and cheap good games for everybody. People with in the hobby help each other out. I haven't looked on eBay for a pin in a long time. No need. Be cool treat people right make friends doesn't take long to get "connected". If it bothers you to look at eBay then stop looking on eBay. And I bet for every "bad" deal there is a good deal on there too.
Agreed. But this wasn't an "eBay prices suck" thread. It is (was) more of an "there's an ever increasing number of self serving and predatory jerks masquerading as hobbyists and pinball promoting hero's who are actually greedy bums who could care less about helping anyone else but themselves" thread.
But that title didn't fit well in the subject line. 
It doesn't sound like the OP is saying that people shouldn't be able to do what they want. But there is a far cry from what you CAN do and what you SHOULD do sometimes. That's where I draw the line on the "good guys" and the "bad guys" in this hobby.
Of course, you CAN low ball people and then sell the game for whatever you want. Whether you should or not is up to your own conscience to decide. People like the OP and myself want nothing to do with those folks. That's our "free market". And informing others about who engages in these practices is also part of the "free market" as well.
On another note, some Pinsiders should really get a business license and pay taxes on their gains with the amount of unabashed flipping that they do. Otherwise, I genuinely hope that it catches up with you one day.
Quoted from kporter946286:Hahah a bit long. You have all types in every hobby. Dont dwell on it. Buy a Tron prices are down
I have one and yes, it rocks!
Quoted from Hazoff:more and more boutique companies are rising up
Ehhh, well.... I don't know if *all* the new boutique companies have been that great for the hobby.....
You should see us stamp collectors when we go to conventions, we're a wild bunch and drama is normal. 
Steve
Quoted from huo:Do all hobbies have this much drama?
Quoted from PinChili:Agreed. But this wasn't an "eBay prices suck" thread. It is a "there's an ever increasing number of self serving and predatory jerks masquerading as hobbyists and pinball promoting hero's who are actually greedy A-holes who could care less about helping anyone else but themselves" thread.
But that title didn't fit well in the subject line.
I've never met KOZ, but he must have done something to really piss you off...
Quoted from FrankJ:I've never met KOZ, but he must have done something to really piss you off...
That comment was not directed at any individual nor was my entire rant (as I stated multiple times previously.) But in general, yep, there are more and more greedy "capitalists" (lol) getting "into pinball" every day and it has really changed the collecting scene over the last 5-6 years in particular.
There's nothing new about overpriced pins and greedy sellers. Been in this hobby 18 years now and can remember stupid prices back in the 90s. Difference now is more noob buyers overpaying without putting in some work first. If folks are more frugal prices will come down. Unfortunately the 'gotta have it now' mindset usually wins out.
Quoted from tamoore:My guess is, 18 years ago, there were a lot more "user fixer opportunities" on the 90's era pins. Games coming out of storage or off route than needed a lot of work. Just not as much of that these days..
This is true. My first four pins were all off route. ngg, tz, totan, IJ. totan was 2k the other three 1700.
Quoted from PinChili:That comment was not directed at any individual nor was my entire rant (as I stated multiple times previously.) But in general, yep, there are more and more greedy "capitalists" (lol) getting "into pinball" every day and it has really changed the collecting scene over the last 5-6 years in particular.
The problem is, YOU didn't do YOUR research when you picked THIS eBay ad as your example. Kos is a highly respected member of the pinball world and not a guy I would piss off. He's also not a recent flipper. I have been in the hobby for nearly 20 years now and I have to tell you, I've made some money on games. That doesn't mean that I didn't loose hundreds at times as well. I bought a Ball Bowler on eBay and when it got to my house, I found out it was termite damaged. I ended up giving it away for free; with shipping over $800 loss. An occasional loss against some gains is how it works. Now somebody give me $11.5K for my Chris Hutchins restored MM!
Quoted from tamoore:My guess is, 18 years ago, there were a lot more "user fixer opportunities" on the 90's era pins. Games coming out of storage or off route than needed a lot of work. Just not as much of that these days..
All "user fixer opportunities" and very little in the way of game specific parts, unless you knew someone with a hoard of NOS stuff. In the late 90's collectors weren't buying NIB games like they do now, even though Stern was still making them.
Quoted from awarner:The problem is, YOU didn't do YOUR research when you picked THIS eBay ad as your example. Kos is a highly respected member of the pinball world and not a guy I would piss off. He's also not a recent flipper. I have been in the hobby for nearly 20 years now and I have to tell you, I've made some money on games. That doesn't mean that I didn't loose hundreds at times as well. I bought a Ball Bowler on eBay and when it got to my house, I found out it was termite damaged. I ended up giving it away for free; with shipping over $800 loss. An occasional loss against some gains is how it works. Now somebody give me $11.5K for my Chris Hutchins restored MM!
Unfortunately the eBay username left little to the imagination as to who was behind that particular listing. Also unfortunate is the number of people on here who keep repeatedly stating his name and making it even more obvious to everyone else. I know there are a lot of people who respect him. But I can also assure you I have received many PM's now from people privately agreeing and sharing their own stories about said person.
You haven't read the whole thread if you think this is about making a little money on games when you go to resell. Anyone who has owned a game for more than a year has likely seen the value of that game go up. Nothing wrong with that. What I personally take exception with, however, are people who buy games for the sole purpose of immediately reselling them. Yes, that sums up capitalism I suppose. But these same people (IN GENERAL) are the ones taking advantage of unsuspecting owners by beating them up on price, undervaluing what they have, and then turning around and doing just the opposite when they go to sell the game the next day (over hyping, calling something "rare", etc. etc.). The point was that while these people have existed for years I think their numbers have been growing unbelievably in the last few years and it's not good for the actual hobbyist at all. It's even more annoying when said people try to portray themselves as ambassadors of the hobby.
If the game is in as good of condition as described, JP isn't exactly an easy game to find in really good shape. They are usually beat to hell but that's besides the point. Auction/no auction/reserve/no reserve that's the seller's option. It still took someone to bid that high to sell for that much!
The seller also had to pay a 10% auction fee on this which amounts to $442.20 PLUS PayPal fees of around 3% for $132 for a total of about $574. So in the end he netted around $3848 on the game. Is that high? For you or me, probably yes but I don't blame the seller. He had it with an auction with a high reserve. If it sold for that he was fine with it, if it didn't he can always lower the reserve and relist. OR it could have been a situation where the seller felt "this game is in so good of shape, this is what it will take for me to sell it otherwise I will keep it".
The fee structure is what is driving the final nail in the coffin of eBay and also leads to inflated prices and less actual true auctions. When eBay was really humming, they charged a listing fee of 25-50 cents per item plus a much lower % final value fee (think it was around 5%), then the Meg Whitman era happened and their market share eroded. So how do you drive up money coming in the company? You either try to increase the amount of listings OR you raise fees. They chose the easy way and cranked up fees while seeing their market share erode even more. Lately (or at least lately I've seen) they took the cap off of fees per item they charge. It used to be a max of $250 (on non vehicles), now its 10% no matter what.
Blame the seller/hobby all you want but if someone is paying it, the price of the item IS worth it to the buyer! I wouldn't pay $4K+ for a Jurassic Park but then again some people may think I'm nuts by what I paid for some of my other games.
Quoted from dkazz1:The seller also had to pay a 10% auction fee on this which amounts to $442.20
I thought the 10% fee was capped at $250. Has that changed?
Go to the ebay fee calculator and check. It changed. Used to be a $250 cap but they needed more money I guess.....
Quoted from huo:Do all hobbies have this much drama?
Yes.
My kid belongs to a Disney pin trading site. It got so bad, they created a separate forum for people to flame each other.
Quoted from dkazz1:Go to the ebay fee calculator and check. It changed. Used to be a $250 cap but they needed more money I guess.....
http://www.fees.ebay.com/feeweb/feecalculator
HFS you're right! Them greedy bastages! We should be dog-piling on Ebay...
Quoted from PinChili:Unfortunately the eBay username left little to the imagination as to who was behind that particular listing. Also unfortunate is the number of people on here who keep repeatedly stating his name and making it even more obvious to everyone else. I know there are a lot of people who respect him. But I can also assure you I have received many PM's now from people privately agreeing and sharing their own stories about said person.
You haven't read the whole thread if you think this is about making a little money on games when you go to resell. Anyone who has owned a game for more than a year has likely seen the value of that game go up. Nothing wrong with that. What I personally take exception with, however, are people who buy games for the sole purpose of immediately reselling them. Yes, that sums up capitalism I suppose. But these same people (IN GENERAL) are the ones taking advantage of unsuspecting owners by beating them up on price, undervaluing what they have, and then turning around and doing just the opposite when they go to sell the game the next day (over hyping, calling something "rare", etc. etc.). The point was that while these people have existed for years I think their numbers have been growing unbelievably in the last few years and it's not good for the actual hobbyist at all. It's even more annoying when said people try to portray themselves as ambassadors of the hobby.
But you act like this is a new thing. It's REALLY NOT. 14 or so years ago, a friend of mine that made his income from buying arcade video games and fixing them and reselling them took a Wizard of Wor to an auction to sell it. Another guy who was a friend of a friend convinced him to pull it out of the auction and sell it to him for a far lower number than it would have probably gotten in the auction because "He really loved the game and had been looking for one for years". This was on a Saturday. The following Monday, the game was listed in the newspaper classifieds for sale at double what he paid. It's nothing new.
Quoted from awarner:But you act like this is a new thing. It's REALLY NOT. 14 or so years ago, a friend of mine that made his income from buying arcade video games and fixing them and reselling them took a Wizard of Wor to an auction to sell it. Another guy who was a friend of a friend convinced him to pull it out of the auction and sell it to him for a far lower number than it would have probably gotten in the auction because "He really loved the game and had been looking for one for years". This was on a Saturday. The following Monday, the game was listed in the newspaper classifieds for sale at double what he paid. It's nothing new.
Quoted from PinChili:The point was that while these people have existed for years I think their numbers have been growing unbelievably in the last few years and it's not good for the actual hobbyist at all. It's even more annoying when said people try to portray themselves as ambassadors of the hobby.
Numbers doing it have increased.
Rate of occurrences have increased.
Tactics/ethics have gotten ridiculous (CL in particular is a joke in metro Detroit ... people constantly attacking others ads, blocking them, etc.)
Perhaps it's particularly noticeable here in MI which seems to be a hotbed for pinball?
Quoted from PismoArcade:My kid belongs to a Disney pin trading site
Wow! Disney makes pinball machines now?? 
(j/k)
Quoted from huo:Do all hobbies have this much drama?
I going to go check out the coin and stamp collecting forums right now! 
Leduc, AB
Quoted from awarner:Kos is a highly respected member of the pinball world and not a guy I would piss off.
Um, I know a lot of pinball folks that he has made very upset over the past few years. I could care less and have no opinions either way, but I do know quite a few people that refuse to speak with him, or to support his show. I went there once, and I thought it was fun. Besides, it's always better to be pissed off, rather than pissed on.
Don't care too much. There is a hard correction coming. You can see that just going to conventions. MM doesn't get close to as much play anymore. You don't have to wait in line for af or tz. All the lines are for new pinballs. I think you are going to see ems and system 11s dropp hard at some point, too. Like, you have space problems. we just came out of a recession and I see alot of this as splurge spending with low new supply. I.just look at stupid prices as.signs that.the bubble will soon pop.
Quoted from PinChili:My rant was never about a single individual (albeit yes, I referenced a particular FS example) and I certainly never dropped any individual's name.
You keep saying this, but the heart of your complaint is pretty specific to this seller:
Quoted from PinChili:I can guarantee when this person bought this game he told the seller it's a weak game, Data East, low rated, nothing special, blah blah blah. Then when he sells it, it's "rare", the greatest thing on Earth, "Cherry". I really hate anyone coming on here pretending to love pinball but ultimately just preying on hobbyists to make a buck. Take your greed elsewhere.
Sure sounds like you know who this specific seller is, and you think he bargains unfairly when buying games, and "pretends to love pinball" but actually views it solely as a way to make a quick profit. If you don't have experience with this seller, how could you claim to know either of these things about him?
Quoted from Darcy:Check out the Model Railroad sites. Guys get shot down because their steam era locomotive has the wrong rivet locations.
Ugh, as an active and lifelong survivor of that hobby, you're understating it severely. In two decades spent online, one of the worst and most pedantic flame & FAUXRAGE!!!1!1!! wars I ever saw had to do not even with rivets - but the location of a single cast-on detail on a modern boxcar. We're talking a real life part about the size of a pack of gum, scaled down to HO... all because it was "located wrong" but in real life it was not always in the same location!!! Ugh, the emotional arguing over that stupid minute detail made me embarrassed to be associated by proxy. OTOH, it made my brazen fondness for Tyco junk amongst my contest-quality models seem almost completely rational, lol.
Any hobby is supposed to be fun. If it's not, you're doing it wrong... but that doesn't always mean there's just one way to do it right.
Quoted from goingincirclez:We're talking a real life part about the size of a pack of gum, scaled down to HO... all because it was "located wrong" but in real life it was not always in the same location!!!
My concern with the recent trend towards full restorations on games that it becomes like Bloomington Gold Corvette judging, where someone blows their stack that one of the yellow inspection stickers is in the wrong spot on the lockdown bar receiver...
Noordwijk
Quoted from jwilson:yellow inspection sticker
You mean white inspection sticker...
Quoted from Star_Gazer:You mean white inspection sticker...
Quoted from jwilson:My concern with the recent trend towards full restorations on games that it becomes like Bloomington Gold Corvette judging
Having attended a few Concours I appreciate fastidious attention to detail at that level. I understand what's being preserved and displayed. And even below the concours level, I can understand someone pointing out the way things were done "at the factory" during a restoration - to a point.
But having said that? Zeus forbid pins ever be judged that way!
Although one might argue the "HEP" trend has taken pins beyond the auto concours level, since no pin was ever constructed with chromed transformer leg braces or indeed even needs to be. Or maybe HEP is more like low-rider pimp-out chrome? Regardless, in any community of "haves" there's always someone pushing something to the next level for bragging rights...
...hopefully "both Corvettes" get enjoyed all the same.
Quoted from TheLaw:Ummm, that's the business term of 2016, these guys are ahead of the game!
I always thought "Refurbished" is when a product is sent back to the "manufacture" to be fixed/repaired?
Quoted from Jean-Luc-Picard:I always thought "Refurbished" is when a product is sent back to the "manufacture" to be fixed/repaired?
Think it's just a "qualified" person. So there's either thousands of "qualified" fixers round here, or a handful, depending on the definition of qualified 
Quoted from PinChili:Agreed. But this wasn't an "eBay prices suck" thread. It is (was) more of an "there's an ever increasing number of self serving and predatory jerks masquerading as hobbyists and pinball promoting hero's who are actually greedy bums who could care less about helping anyone else but themselves" thread.
But that title didn't fit well in the subject line.
Just absurd. Sellers sell for the highest price they can get and buyers try and buy at the lowest price. Has nothing to do with being a predator or a jerk. And if someone considers themselves a hobbyists, they are prohibited from selling their machine for the highest price possible? Of course not, you can be a hobbyist and still try and get the best price you can. We 'mericans like to call it a free market. Nobody is forced to buy, and it's the buyer's responsibility to do their research before buying.
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