(Topic ID: 9645)

Everything about pinball has progressed over the years.....except the art work


By thedarkknight77

9 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 87 posts
  • 53 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Aurich
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 12 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    wnbjm09.jpg
    11136111_1114124361947244_5799226007516903422_o.jpg
    strange-world.jpg
    3ebf9017899204fec134a7721205e41ceb90693a.jpg
    Farfalla-playfield4.png
    12182886_1238478299511849_63436274659079487_o.jpg
    12227170_1246028608756818_5966655431078114593_n.jpg
    12249893_1246028218756857_1464814189699914829_n.jpg
    aaaaaa.jpg
    1002565_657755394264593_1241054740_n.jpg
    HardBody.jpg
    bw.jpg

    There are 87 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 7 years ago
    Quoted from Gov:

    Metallica is the only machine that has really appealed to my artistic side in many years.

    Fortunately the software is holding it back to the point no one will notice

    I kid I kid..... ish

    #52 7 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    The print quality. Blurry, smeared, washed out or crushed color dots the size of lentils. It's not the design so much as the quality. The printing on a box of Count Chocula just trumps the effort they put into that. It's like someone with a 20 year old inkjet offered to do it for cheap and Gary gave him a high five. I just can't not see it when I look at that pin! :p

    LOTR printing is all over the map..some look stellar, some look horrible, some have too much green, some are light, some are dark...I'll give you that. I feel like I got a good one with nice darks and deep reds. I'm don't give a pass to all the Stern Photoshop work - but when I saw nice clean bright LOTRs for the first time at a pinhead party - I was pretty enamored by it...and at the time I had only seen the 1st movie and hated it.

    *shrug* ...to each their own - but I think the general consensus is that LOTR is pretty nice looking, especially compared to other Stern playfields like Elvis or 24 which really scream "bad art"

    #53 7 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Even original games are "themes". How many people hate Fish Tales & roadshow because they're "redneck themes"? Original is no guarantee that it will please everyone.

    Completely agree ! All pinball has a theme. It comes down to the title of said game.Read the title,that's the theme.

    Give me the FT over Roadshow for a preferred theme.

    #54 7 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Except that's utter nonsense. Stern just doesn't give a f---, that's all.

    Do you feel Stern games are reasonably priced? How much more would you pay to get original art on a game? $100? $200? MET was a nice exception, but likely won't happen again for a long time.

    When we had great art on pins, companies were building tens of thousands of games a year and many weren't licensed titles. Those companies had way more creative manpower than Stern does now. Financially, it's just not possible now. If you want things to get back like they were, play on location as often as you can. Home buyers will never bring back the numbers that would make more original art possible.

    #55 7 years ago
    Quoted from Jimmydred:

    Need the eye candy. I like Dirty Donny's art and have thought seriously about buying a Metallica.

    It's the closest thing I've seen in years, that compares well to the classics.

    #56 7 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    The printing on a box of Count Chocula just trumps the effort they put into that.:p

    Good one.

    Trouble is - I honestly think that the general public does not appreciate good art like Paul Farris, Kevin, O' Connor, and others used to do.

    Then again, take a look at movie poster art, which mirrors pinball art pretty good. Same thing - we even get the "big heads" on games - Like POTC.

    #57 7 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    Do you feel Stern games are reasonably priced? How much more would you pay to get original art on a game? $100? $200? MET was a nice exception, but likely won't happen again for a long time.
    When we had great art on pins, companies were building tens of thousands of games a year and many weren't licensed titles. Those companies had way more creative manpower than Stern does now. Financially, it's just not possible now. If you want things to get back like they were, play on location as often as you can. Home buyers will never bring back the numbers that would make more original art possible.

    Sorry, but I don't buy it. It's purely a matter of will. Stern doesn't care, thus it doesn't happen. Also, you're seriously overestimating how much an artist would get paid for a playfield and a backglass. I love that you think that art is worth that much though.

    I don't know the first thing about how things work inside Stern. But can someone explain to me why the hell they hired Greg Freres if it wasn't to do original art for them?

    http://www.sternpinball.com/Community/Blogs/news/greg-freres-joins-stern-pinball.aspx

    “Greg is a great fit for our company and we’re confident that his diverse talents and background will help us create the future of pinball,” said Gary Stern, Founder, CEO and Chairman of Stern Pinball, Inc

    It's not like they brought him on board just to get in on that Juicy Mellons action that's going to rake in billions.

    #58 7 years ago

    I like this kind of artwork on my pinball machines.
    1002565_657755394264593_1241054740_n.jpg

    #59 7 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Why does LOTR look so bad to you? It's one of Stern's better playfields. I've even had professional artists as jaded as you and I come over - they look at LOTR and say "what a beautiful game". Wanna see shitty - look at a 24!!!

    +1,000 LOTR makes a great argument for photoshopped play fields. Its is one of my favorites.

    #60 7 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Sorry, but I don't buy it. It's purely a matter of will. Stern doesn't care, thus it doesn't happen.

    That's ridiculous. Ask anyone who works there if they'd prefer to have all original art and they'll all say yes, including Gary Stern.

    Quoted from Aurich:

    Also, you're seriously overestimating how much an artist would get paid for a playfield and a backglass.

    Whether you hire a full time artist or use a contractor, it's going to cost more money. They don't sell enough games to have a well staffed art department. Simple as that. Do the math yourself. Maybe 8k games sold last year (generous estimate) at ~$5K each (another generous estimate) = not enough money for original art. I think you're seriously underestimating just how big of a company Stern is and how much original art costs. The creative jobs at a pinball company (game designer, software designer, artists) pay more than any other job there.

    You also need to remember that more than half of their games go to operators (like me). Art is way down on the list of things to consider when I buy a new game to put out on location. Stern has cut costs over the years in exactly the areas I would prefer. The areas that don't affect gameplay.

    #61 7 years ago

    Hand Drawn all the way!

    #62 7 years ago

    It goes beyond using hand-drawn vs. cut and paste photoshopping.
    Most cut and paste doesn't look good period, as in little effort was put into it.

    #63 7 years ago

    Pay me 5000 and I'll do the hand drawn that's affordable shoot on the down low if take 750

    #64 7 years ago
    Quoted from phishrace:

    I think you're seriously underestimating just how big of a company Stern is and how much original art costs.

    Considering that I've been a full time graphic designer for well over a decade and own my own company I'm pretty sure I'm not underestimating it, no. My clients have ranged from individuals to Fortune 500 companies, I'm well aware of how size and budgets work. It's not nearly as expensive as you seem to think. Seriously, just looking at your numbers that your threw out, you really think it costs $800,000 a year do do artwork? Do the math, your numbers aren't anywhere close.

    Skit B has hand drawn art on their playfield. 250 units. Please don't try and tell me Stern can't afford it.

    Do I think Gary gives a f--- about the art? Nope, I don't. Do I think ops should care? Yeah, I do. But I won't tell you how to run your business.

    2 years later
    #65 5 years ago

    Resurrecting this thread, since I mentioned it in my seminar "Pinball art in the digital age" at the Dutch Pinball Open last week.
    The seminar is focussed on how programs like Photoshop (but also Illustrator and Cinema 4D) are tools to create art. Even 'masters of handdrawn art', work in the digital world nowadays, by making use of a tablet or cintiq.

    Hopefully this presentation enlightens of how these programs are used.

    Enjoy,
    Jean-Paul de Win

    #67 5 years ago

    In my opinion, it's not Photoshop that is the problem... it's a lack of talented artists like Paul Faris. Even back in the day it was evident. Look at Future Spa. The back glass, done by Paul, is magnificent; just like Paragon and Lost World. But look at the playfield, done by someone else, and it is not even in the same league.

    We need to get them to bring Paul out of retirement!

    Mac

    #68 5 years ago

    Have you not seen KISS? Fantastic. Metallica (certainly the premium DD one), incredible art. I like POTC and LOTR, Tron fits nicely but the 3d glass on mine did have to go (what's that black splat on Quorra's face?)

    #69 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinsRfun:

    In terms of licensed themes, I would take modern Stern photoshop art over DataEast hand drawn crap (JP, TFTC, LAH, etc). I avoided DE pretty much because their art was horrible.

    the funny thing about this is Gary Stern was CEO of all these companies.Stern pinball is DE/Sega.Same feel,same toys,same ugly art.The one anomaly is MET,thanks to DD.

    #70 5 years ago

    It's weird that in a topic of pinball art, 50-some posts, no one has mentioned the 1950's. I remember having a conversation at Expo at the Ramada where a group of us were lamenting the decline of the quality of pinball art from the 50's to the 60's to the 70's. That's the same 70's that a lot of posters here have held up as the "iconic" good stuff. So, yeah, tastes change.

    One poster said that the reason for crappy art is: "It's 100% time and cost driven". I don't know about that. Look at 1954. Gottlieb put out 13 games that year, ALL of them with art by one guy, Roy Parker, and ALL of them designed by one guy, Wayne Neyens. No computers, no copy machines, no CAD, no CNC, and every playfield and backglass was screened. I think that addresses the "time driven" problem.

    On the cost part...a game back then cost $250, NIB. The 3.6% annual inflation since then takes the $250 up to $2200 in today's dollars. So, at $6500, the cost of a new pin today has increased three times the rate of inflation. I think that addresses the "cost driven" problem.

    I understand that games are more complex today, but so is technology on design, engineering, and production aspects. But this is a thread about art. And the fact is that Parker churned out more than a game's worth of great, iconic art every month.

    Conclusion: What we need today are artists that are better, and work faster

    #71 5 years ago
    Quoted from TheDude75:

    Resurrecting this thread, since I mentioned it in my seminar "Pinball art in the digital age" at the Dutch Pinball Open last week.
    The seminar is focussed on how programs like Photoshop (but also Illustrator and Cinema 4D) are tools to create art. Even 'masters of handdrawn art', work in the digital world nowadays, by making use of a tablet or cintiq.
    Hopefully this presentation enlightens of how these programs are used.

    Really nicely done Jean-Paul, I enjoyed watching it.

    #72 5 years ago
    Quoted from JoeGrenuk:

    It's weird that in a topic of pinball art, 50-some posts, no one has mentioned the 1950's. I remember having a conversation at Expo at the Ramada where a group of us were lamenting the decline of the quality of pinball art from the 50's to the 60's to the 70's. That's the same 70's that a lot of posters here have held up as the "iconic" good stuff. So, yeah, tastes change.
    One poster said that the reason for crappy art is: "It's 100% time and cost driven". I don't know about that. Look at 1954. Gottlieb put out 13 games that year, ALL of them with art by one guy, Roy Parker, and ALL of them designed by one guy, Wayne Neyens. No computers, no copy machines, no CAD, no CNC, and every playfield and backglass was screened. I think that addresses the "time driven" problem.
    On the cost part...a game back then cost $250, NIB. The 3.6% annual inflation since then takes the $250 up to $2200 in today's dollars. So, at $6500, the cost of a new pin today has increased three times the rate of inflation. I think that addresses the "cost driven" problem.
    I understand that games are more complex today, but so is technology on design, engineering, and production aspects. But this is a thread about art. And the fact is that Parker churned out more than a game's worth of great, iconic art every month.
    Conclusion: What we need today are artists that are better, and work faster

    Well the OP said 'everything" in pinball is progressing.Apparently it is not.

    #73 5 years ago

    Or the Gordon Morison era!Look a them,nice 70's comic book style

    #74 5 years ago

    That giant sneering orangutan head on AC/DC Pro is original art, right?

    #75 5 years ago
    Quoted from JoeGrenuk:

    Conclusion: What we need today are artists that are better, and work faster

    None of today's pinball artists get to choose what they "draw" for a movie license.

    You get a Style Book from the movie studio, and it has all the "clip art" you are allowed to use in the license.

    That way a single unified style matches on the McDonald's cup, the movie poster, the t-shirts and the pinball machine.

    #76 5 years ago
    Quoted from resipsa:

    I think the licensed games are really the issue. When was the last time we've seen a non-license game? It's probably been at least 10 years....only Stern I can think of is High Roller. Artwork on that one isn't bad at all. Be great so see someone have the balls to be creative and come out with a new unlicensed game today.

    full throttle...

    #77 5 years ago
    Quoted from Sheprd:

    In my opinion, it's not Photoshop that is the problem... it's a lack of talented artists like Paul Faris. Even back in the day it was evident. Look at Future Spa. The back glass, done by Paul, is magnificent; just like Paragon and Lost World. But look at the playfield, done by someone else, and it is not even in the same league.
    We need to get them to bring Paul out of retirement!
    Mac

    embryon, space invaders and centaur. that was the real deal. black knight & sorcerer were good too

    #78 5 years ago

    Art has been the key decision factor in almost every game I bought in 2015. The exception was Shadow, which I still think has pretty good art, and will have amazing art once it gets a new Aurich translite.

    12249893_1246028218756857_1464814189699914829_n.jpg

    12227170_1246028608756818_5966655431078114593_n.jpg

    12182886_1238478299511849_63436274659079487_o.jpg

    Farfalla-playfield4.png

    3ebf9017899204fec134a7721205e41ceb90693a.jpg

    strange-world.jpg

    #79 5 years ago

    Also, a shout out to CPR and John Greatwich. Great art is a lot easier to admire when it's all there.

    11136111_1114124361947244_5799226007516903422_o.jpg

    #80 5 years ago

    the real issue is licensed themes. especially hollywood ones. there is little to no flexibility from the license owners these days. its stupid and counterproductive.

    #81 5 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    the real issue is licensed themes. especially hollywood ones. there is little to no flexibility from he license owners these days.

    True.

    Quoted from pezpunk:

    its stupid and counterproductive.

    Sadly, not true. People want licenses. It's all they get excited about.

    #82 5 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    True.

    Sadly, not true. People want licenses. It's all they get excited about.

    yeah agree there. i meant the licenseholders are doing themselves a disservice by not allowing unique pinball art.

    #83 5 years ago

    I don't agree with this topic in general, especially when it was posted in 2012. Layouts have become semi-standardized, we have way fewer innovative toys or just stuff in general on playfields, we're only barely cracking into high quality LCD animations replacing DMDs, themes are almost entirely licensed instead of a good mix of licensed and original. Cut and paste art is just one factor of it.

    We have some awesome, killer, deep, fun, balanced rules now and better light shows. I wouldn't say that improves "everything". I'd take modern rules on new 90s-design games any day.

    #84 5 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    i meant the licenseholders are doing themselves a disservice by not allowing unique pinball art.

    License holders DON'T want unique.

    They want a UNIFIED brand presentation.

    #85 5 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    Art has been the key decision factor in almost every game I bought in 2015. The exception was Shadow, which I still think has pretty good art, and will have amazing art once it gets a new Aurich translite.

    To clarify: I do like the art on Shadow, but the big draw for me on that one was the layout and gameplay. It's good, just not on the same level as some of the 80's pins. Aurich's art helps bring it up several notches.

    #86 5 years ago
    Quoted from resipsa:

    Be great so see someone have the balls to be creative and come out with a new unlicensed game today.

    Yes, that would be great.

    wnbjm09.jpg

    #87 5 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Yes, that would be great.

    Not to mention since that post, Full Throttle and America's Most Haunted. Real games, shipping and in people's homes.

    Original pinball is still here, but people aren't really supporting it in droves.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    From: $ 11.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 130.00
    Playfield - Plastics
    Special When Lit
    $ 15.00
    $ 40.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 35.00
    Cabinet - Other
    Arcade Upkeep
    $ 495.00
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    MI Pinball Refinery
    $ 69.50
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Lermods
    $ 12.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    $ 79.99
    Cabinet - Armor And Blades
    PinGraffix Pinside Shop
    $ 40.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    ArcadeArts
    $ 115.00
    $ 175.00
    Lighting - Interactive
    Professor Pinball
    $ 30.00
    Various Other Swag
    Tommy's Pins
    $ 28.00
    Playfield - Other
    Pin Monk
    $ 25.00
    From: $ 9.99
    Eproms
    Matt's Basement Arcade
    $ 26.99
    Lighting - Interactive
    Lee's Parts
    $ 79.99
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    From: $ 33.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    Rocket City Pinball
    $ 29.00
    From: $ 119.99
    Lighting - Backbox
    Rock Custom Pinball
    From: $ 41.00
    $ 14.95
    Pinball Machine
    COINTAKER.COM
    $ 339.00
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 149.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Sparky Pinball
    $ 26.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 7.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Pinball Haus
    There are 87 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside