One big plus to the remake is that I am sure they will come with a protector on the scoop and the bracket on he Drac track. I have owned several MB’s and unfortunately most have blown out Mosh scoops and some have playfield warping at the Drac track (major bummer). It will be nice to start from day one with all the protectors and playfield reinforcements in place.

MB is one of those games that has cute toys, nice humor, but very very very easy. The 3rd time i've ever played the game, I got to the ending, twice in the same game. I was bored already and only played it 3 times in my whole life. MB is one of those games that is great to play at someone elses house.

To be fair, we're not dealing with a bunch of great players here. It may be a perfect game for somebody with a lot of money, but not much experience playing pinball.

I feel the same way about Monster Bash as I do Scared Stiff. Amazing games when it comes to theme and music and callouts and overall presentation, just great examples of the pinnacle of true 'arcade' pinball. These were games that were meant to take quarters, deliver a good time, and after you beat it no big deal, it was probably time for the op to rotate in a new game anyways.

If you have the money and space to have those kinds of enjoyable games to share with company, or put in a couple games when you want to grin and bash the ball around with the sound cranked up then you're in luck.

If you're the kind of person who spends time thinking about game code, strategies, depth, and long term replayability it's honestly a lousy choice. I had one for a while, did a temp swap of my Scared Stiff for one, and I enjoyed the shit out of it, and then didn't miss it when I gave it back.

Just one of those funny titles that I can honestly say is one of my favorite pins of all time, but that I wouldn't actually want to own.

that is true, but when I went through it twice. I was a D- player...at best. That's a lot of money for even a half assed player to just dominate within the first 40 mins of playing it.

All these extras plus shipping and taxes for 7k? Wow- good deal! And it will be out in March? Nice! .......I'm sure the MBR will be nice. I like the other 2 remakes.

It would be very cool if they started offering new/alternate code in their games, but I wouldn’t bank on it for MBr (I took that post to be hinting at improvements for CC). Buy MBr for what it is and if they happen to add new code, bonus for you.

As I was reading this post, right about here I pictured Liam Neeson saying "good luck". At best they will fix some bugs and enhance the DMD and sound quality. Actual code updates would be for games that need it like TOM and especially CC. MBr doesn't need a huge software update to sell and selling is all that counts.

I continue to be in the minority. I think the remakes are a punch in the nuts to those of us who have been restoring and collecting these original games for years.

Given that these remakes require zero R&D, the tooling already exists to create the mechanisms and parts, and the build quality is not the same (Don’t believe me, try and flex a VUK mech on MMr vs An original, the new remakes are very flimsy), they are overpriced IMHO.

Comparing to cars, a vintage mustang will hold its value. However a new one will decline in value over time. My theory is the same on these remakes, their introduction to the market brings the price down on the vintage ones temporarily, but over the long run I think the originals will retain their value better.

This is why I say the best way to buy a MB, is to buy an original once the remakes are released. That’s when the prices on the better and more valuable game in the long term will be lower.

Someone earlier said AFMr was an overwhelming success. They have sold ~1500 units. Is that really overwhelming? I would say Metallica was an overwhelming success. I bet there are 8000+ Metallica’s out there.

They will almost certainly write extended code for CCr. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if that ends up being remake #3 revealed at TPF in March. They have said the next remake will feature even more enhancements, and new code would fit that description. I'd be a little surprised if they wrote new code for MBr. Lyman wrote the original code and that game is already highly regarded as is. Can't wait to see what happens though as I love these remakes!

I chose an original MM over the remake and I have to agree with some on the sentiment of knockerlover. But, I do believe that the restores and the high prices associated with them, created the market to pave the way for remakes to be produced. If there was not a market, the games would not be produced. Now people just have a choice between originals and remakes. Naturally this will drive down the prices of the restores for most except the true collector who would still pony up the money for an original restore or a very nice example. Was not too crazy about the MM remake but the AFM remake was stellar in my opinion and I look forward to more remakes.

This is pinball machines, not cars.....big difference. These remakes are superb quality and in my opinion they play better too. Give me a remake anyway over an original. You also can’t really compare the numbers made because today’s market is much more different than it used to be. There used to be a lot more arcades and pinball machines everywhere back then and now hardly anywhere you go will you find a pinball machine to play. Even Dave and Busters don’t have pinball machines. Also the reason they aren’t selling a lot more games is thee aren’t many people who can afford to pay 7-8k for a pinball machine.

I don’t own a remake and most likely never will but I think they are a great thing. The more pinball options we have, the better off this hobby is and the more it will grow. I don’t want to see this hobby die again, I want to see it become huge again and I think these remakes can be a part in helping that happen.

sorry, but no... they are cheaper quality and dont play better. They actually play similar to originals but definitely not better.

Remakes are not going to help the hobby grow. They are low margin, high cost games that have nothing new to bring to the hobby and instead are sucking out millions of dollars that would be better spent on any new game/innovation (assuming you want to see the hobby grow). Reality is that they are remaking games from 20 years ago and charging restored original prices because there are enough suckers to buy them at that price. The remakes are not retaining value and in fact have taken value form the originals which pulls more $$$ and people from the hobby.

Remakes fill a void for old guys wanting nostalgia that dont know or want to work on an original. That is cool but it is a flash in the pan and not sustainable.

You have to remember that if ANY game should be at or below Stern PRO pricing it is these remakes. AFMr has very little in the game, had no R&D costs, no coding, no art, no nothing... Just build it and crank them out. Instead of being 5k they sucker punched the gullible community to pay 7k based on the value of the originals as a collectible with limited number when in reality the remakes will lose value quickly and have no collectiblity since they are being made forever in unlimited numbers.

How many more 7k plus remakes are people going to buy?

The writing is already on the wall since they are scrambling to add fluff to the games to try and help people justify the 2k extra upcharge.
I hope the community wakes up before it it too late and it comes crashing down again.

What makes them of superb quality? The mechanisms are flimsy, the boards aren’t serviceable. In about 10 years many of the remakes will be 300lb paperweights or beat to hell worse than many originals.

This is why I mentioned Metallica and not say Addams family. Can’t compare numbers from 3 years ago?

Seems like everyone is so blinded by shiny the facts aren’t important.

OK--full disclosure: I'm trying to sell a MB. Still, I have a AFMrLE. It looks superb. It plays not even close to the original. The flippers don't feel like WMS. The screen looks a little cartoony. I really wish I could have the best of both worlds. But I can't.

O-din makes some good points that will apply some (like me) but not everyone. And I'll second pinlawyer as an owner of both an AFMr and MB and (disclaimer): yes my MB is for sale but I'll remain objective. No, I'm not an MBr buyer if it does get released.

If you can wait until the remakes come out and aren't too particular about Bally/Williams authenticity you should probably get a remake. I would imagine most that have come to the hobby in recent years would fall in to this category. That's not a knock on new collectors. I just think that each of us as collectors are more a product of the time in which we fell in love with pinball.

But, if you are a longtime collector and a Bally/Williams enthusiast, you should get an original B/W game over any remake. I would say the remakes now that they are being "enhanced" are a modern interpretation of a classic, and a good one at that, but not quite the same.

I really enjoy my AFMr and am glad I purchased it. I stand behind my review of it and have nothing but positive things to say about it UNLESS I were to compare it to the Monster Bash that sits next to it. MB is more solid, the shots more consistent, and for lack of a better description just feels tighter than AFMr. The sound quality on MB (with Pinball Pro speakers and sub) is actually better than AFMr. AFMr is definitely the winner in lighting but you could get any original to that level if you desire. The bigger screen makes no difference if you're playing it but it's cool when you're watching.

That's my long winded two-cents. Just get whatever makes you happy and don't look back.

This is what makes me nervous on both the remakes and the new Stern games. I'm not sure why either company has moved to theee boards that can't be serviced.

i have a mb i listed for sale. i really dont care if it sells or not. mm did not really tank after mmr. originals are still 7.5k to 8 k, to me thats not tanking.
if my mb goes down a couple thousand and i can buy a new tom, cc, bbb for 7000 i will gladly take the loss on the mb and make it up on the lower price of the nib price of remade pins.

I hate to say it, but its smart business.

It is from a sales perspective for sure

So how is this a “punch in the nuts”? You say yourself that originals will drop in price only temporarily and in the long run will be more or less unaffected. If true, then what’s the problem?

Your attitude reminds me of a fairly famous collector of pre-war standard gauge toy trains, which I also collect. These trains I mention are also being remade and some collectors don’t like it, especially the guy I mentioned here. He doesn’t like other people to have what he has and doesn’t like loosing the exclusivity of having once very rare trains. In a video interview he said he wishes they didn’t remake these train because he doesn’t need them as he has all the trains he needs. In other words I got mine, piss on the rest of you.

Lastly, why should CGC care if the remakes bring down the prices of originals? They’re a business trying to provide what the market wants and make a profit while doing it. The value of originals or how collectors feel about remakes should not factor into their thought process and I’m glad it doesn’t. I have an AFMr and will be buying a MBr as well as some of the other titles they have in the pipeline, I’m glad they’re making these games and apparently others are too.

As soon as MM's, MB's, AFM's and BBB's started selling for over 10k that opened the doors for remakes to be made, rightfully so. If they provide a product that people like and are willing to purchase than so be it. Competition among companies (and sellers) will only push the companies to create better products and lower prices on the secondary market. Does anyone really think it is fair that a person makes 8k plus on a game like BBB because it is rare? We created this market and we need to acknowledge the consequences for better or worse.

Welcome to the hobby DngrWillRobinson

The reason I bought both MMr and AFMr is that I have wanted (over time) to own both, perhaps not forever but at least for a while.

I see a lot of comments from people back east, where there are a lot of games compared to Cali. Games are cheaper there than here, due to quantity available and shipping costs.

So, what I paid for each brand-new game, was less than I could have bought a used one for here. And I have bought games from back east and each has suffered from inflated condition descriptions. That combined with high shipping costs made it (for me) really an easy decision to buy new.

I hate buying a game that is supposed to be in great condition, pay shipping and then have to do work and buy parts to "fix it up". I really don't have to funds to fly all over the country to check out a game before I buy it.

Those who seem to be down on people who buy these remakes, probably already have the games or live in areas where finding one close to where they live is relatively easy. Plus, if they already own one, they probably paid 50% of what they cost now...so they think remakes are overpriced.

It's easy to categorize people who buy remakes and rich people with a lot of money, but if you look at location, availability of games, desire to have minimal headaches after the purchase, ability to perhaps sell "a known quantity" later...buying a remake can make sense. At least it did to me.

Robert

I think the new MBr:s are welcome and I would go for a MRr as the original MB:s may suffer from warping due to the long drac line and not even the drac bracket every time would fix this completely. This would not apply if one has a repro playfield for the original MB, but if one is a purist, one would have an original restored playfield in it instead and as said, it may suffer from warping.

And it would be huge, if MRr would feature the "planked playfield" as illustrated in this forum as an option

I may have missed this point being discuss (so apologies) but how so? Future board sales?

Easier and cheaper to manufacture newer boards, higher profits on games sales. That’s the business sense part.

They will fail eventually (look at the stern node boards) and cannot be repaired by the common collector like the legacy wpc system.

People don't consider it but selling replacement parts are a big part of a successful company such as this. There is no way they are profiting solely on machine sales.
And these are not the only companies that do this. Like it or not, its smart business.

From what I'm seeing and reading in this hobby is that most people (say 90% of them) don't care which version they have when it comes to a remake of anything as long as it's cheaper (and that includes the quality as well). I did the same thing with MMR and bought one so that it was nice and new right out of the box even though I hated the game (read-boring) and quickly sold it when I realized I was only buying it because everyone felt I should have one in my collection. I replaced it with a EM. machine instead...and I'm much happier....LOL.
But anyways, it comes down to the all mighty dollar in this hobby whether were talking about games, backglasses, playfields, parts......etc. Most people will take a reproduction whatever over an original any day if they can save a dollar. It's sad but true. The thing of it is your basically getting the same exact game as 20 years ago only not blown out so there's nothing else to compare it to other then the price tag. If they did sell 1500 AFMR's at $7K that's 10 million dollars.......cha-ching!! When you compare a new Mustang to a old one there is no comparison as it's two totally different cars that they just slapped the name on it in order to make them sell to collectors who thought they would be the only one to have one.......LOL.
As for the replacement boards. The boards will fail given enough time, from a single lamp not working to a row of switches out..., it doesn't matter what goes wrong with it you'll have to replace the board. I'm guessing $2-$300 ??

John

This problem is only for the CGC and new Stern games correct? Not an issue facing JJP or Spooky right now?

Most newbies don't know how to service their boards anyway when there is a problem.

If those boards are serviceable then no it's not a problem. I've not looked at Spooky's or JJP. And yes I own a WoZ.

John

The lack of ability to do board work isn’t limited to new hobbiests. I depend on the kindness of my friends when I’m having a board issue.

Mostly agree... not worth the price of admission(i had a perfect restored modded one for under 9k) . Neat theme but gets stale very quickly and sold mine few months ago for dile .... dont miss or regret that decision one bit.

11000 plays and counting, time will tell...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/documenting-the-entire-life-of-a-medieval-madness-remake/page/4#post-4061182

I have owned 5 original MM and now an MMr, I don't know the science behind it but my MMr plays great (better than the CQ restored MM I used to own)

The remakes are what they are at this point, if you don't like them don't buy them. I think it is a bit rediculous to say they will be 300 pound paper weights is 10 years.

Some people prefer old, some people prefer new. Determining which is better at this point is more of an emotional and personal decision. It will take a number of years after AFMr stops production to see if there is a majority consensus one way or the other. Likely one version will exceed the other in cash value. Only time will tell.

I've been thinking by opposite- I used to own a fully restored AFM and now have an AFMR. The game overall is a significant upgrade on the original. It plays faster and smoother. I really have no idea what people are talking about re-the flippers. All the other upgrades are very well done. And most original AFM/MM these days will already have a significant number of replacement parts and are therefore moving closer to a remake anyway. The replacement parts are mostly from PPS - same parts as the remake.

The only downside I see is the serviceability of the electronics on the remake may be a concern in 10-15 years time.

Admittedly it's now almost a completely different game and that's where collector mentality comes in. If you're looking for a complete replacement of AFM to fit in your collection of original Bally/Williams games, the remake might be disappointing. But if you just want a fantastic fast playing entertaining game with one of the best layouts and rulesets ever, AFMR is a winner.

I was at TPF all 3 days this year and had a chance to get a lot of plays on AFMr as well as the 2 original games that were also there. Both are fun. Not knocking the originals at all since they are a proven all-time classic. The remake is super sweet though with the modern enhancements: all LED lighting, upgraded speakers, large high resolution color display, shaker integration, best topper in pinball, upgraded melamine covered cabinet, and 2 year warranty. That’s not fluff. I had no intention of buying another game but when I saw and played this one it was too good for me to pass up.

Based on CGC’s current production capacity I’d say 2,500-3,000 games per year for the foreseeable future.

The original game is one of the best ever. No need to change it. There is code integration for the shaker and topper which is new compared to the original. The topper was also designed by Doug Watson who did the original art on the game. The high resolution color dots are all new.

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True time will tell. What will you do when this fails?

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The community has been amazingly resourceful for getting unobtainable parts made. If there is demand, it will get done. I don't have any doubts.

While I agree with this generally it does depend on the continued popularity of Pinball to sustain such a market for hard to source parts. If Pinball takes a down turn five years from now boards may be become scarce.

I bought an original AFM and don't regret it one bit. I can make a list of reason's I don't like the AFMr. There are many. But the price of the original needs to be according to condition. If he wants an MB he should just go buy one. By the time he gets a remake in his hands he will probably be ready to sell the original. Its 2019 at the earliest.

You show a picture of an MPU board? I could easily show a picture of a WPC95 CPU and ask what you do when you get one that the batteries have leaked on? You replace it or pay someone a bunch of money and maybe it gets fixed and maybe it doesn't.

There has been surface mount technology in main stream pins for a long time including the SAM system CPU. Those CPUs will be around for years and so will replacements. Think anyone has ever repaired the MPU in a JJP machine themselves? Besides, at this point there are already plenty of CGC games out there to ensure they will be repairable and/or spares for many decades from the usual sources. The fact that they use standard interfaces will make them easy to emulate in the future as well for aftermarket support.

This whole "new technology is bad", the sky is falling strawman is lame at best. You don't like the remakes. We get it.

I think the remakes do have a different "feel" to them, also think the art work is not as crisp as the originals.

For anybody to think there is no development in these remakes.....well, that's just dumb. The remakes run off completely different boards, operating systems and wiring. It's a totally new development of boards, wiring and software. Just because the game looks and plays similar to the original doesn't mean there wasn't any or much development involved. It's actually a different pin for the most part.

I am for the remakes, it doesn't hurt my feelings when a remake is made of a pin I own. I actually wish every single title would drop to a value of how they were 15-20 years ago. I would loose out of my current pins values but would make up for it in the others I could buy.

Year 2000. Everyone said the exact same thing about WPC95 games. Don’t buy them because they didn’t make a lot of them. You’ll never be able to get parts. The A/V board were unattainable. Heard the same thing pretty much about every different system. If the stash of boards dry up someone will come along and make new ones. You can even look to the Gottlieb system one boards with those spider chips. Yeah they make new boards now. Another thing is just because surface mount is new to most us in the hobby there are many companies that make boards.

Super insightful and well considered post. This is how I feel about a lot of games. I tend to learn towards crowd pleasers these days rather than depth and strategy. I’ll probably love MB!

Going against the grain, but I will buy both MBr and TOMr. TOM is my favorite game and I love playing MB. Plus, my daughter likes it too. I am an okish player but am not caught up in crazy code. Getting new games with updated features and cheaper than the originals is a no brainer. They will look great in my new house in Naptown.

I’ve noticed a LOT more hate on ToM Over the past year or so. I don’t know if it’s the JPop story coming out, or a smaller group of vocal pinsiders who just don’t like it or similar games (like MB) or what, but it’s in the top 10 for a reason. Still fun as hell!