I did say "almost overnight" actually. But fine... I misspoke I guess. I still think WOZ was way more of a catalyst for pin pricing than any other pin in recent memory. Maybe that is my gut talking more than hard facts, but there does seem to be a correlation between the two.

I don't think its "A list" hating.....I like playing most of those pins....but when you start to hear people using terms like "financing" and "investment" with pins it leads to over hype and the building of a house of cards imho...

Prices will come down for all pins, not just "A" listers....

LCD's, Wifi, stereo systems, internet connectivity will also be factors with the newer games...

But hey, that's just me thinking, maybe it the road goes on forever and the party never ends, who knows!

WOZ brought so many more people back into the hobby like myself....and raised the quality and stakes...

I hear ya buddy. If it weren't for WOZ I would probably still only own LOTR. Instead I pre-ordered WOZ, then bought Tron:LE, and finally bought IJ(W) before trading it for SM. WOZ lit some sort of pin fire in me I guess.

So, is Wh2o not happening now?

WOZ made you buy Sterns?

I think he meant it turned him into a multipin owner instead of just having one as a novelty.

I would sell my two pins, if it would get me a an X-Men LE, but it won't. I'm a huge fan of x-men.

Exactly!

Ended up pulling the plug on that one.

hey buddy... let me grab a few of these half price games before you scoop them all up

Actually, I will take the SS, Creature, LOTR, and CV that you will be passing up.

I can hardly wait for this bubble pop!! Madison is gonna have the sickest collection of pins EVER.

I know. That's what I said you said!

um... why did you not send it my way?

The seller had other people behind me already. Otherwise I would have.

Edit: Actually I would have sent it Dave's way first. He called dibs immediately on it. Then it would have gone your way Hilton.

That you did!

Been a long week. Sorry Rob.

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

at least we all get to still play Mike's Wh20

As more and more pins are made to meet demand prices on 20 year old pins will creep to a more reasonable level. I'm thinking near the end of 2013 when JJPs second title hits. I love the classics but everything has its time and I think with the new competition and technology pinball will finally be taken to the next level. Only time will tell. Either way exciting times for pinball! Can't wait to see and play the new pins that will be coming out in the next few years.

I don't think prices will drop significantly when the new tech comes out but I think (hope) they will level out.

Sweet. Any word yet on whether the split dmd will be gone like ACDC has full use of the whole DMD?

I kind of agree with this - not so much that WoZ is too busy, but it doesn't look like a layout for fun. Stern games do look real nice, clean and bright, but more importantly, they're playing real nice and fast. I think WoZ is going to be more of a stop and go (mostly stop).

I hope so....gives me a little time to drink beer while I'm playing...I can do it with Lotr, not so much on SM

Hey someone else agrees with me about WOZ. I'm not really digging the layout either, as it looks VERY focused on upper playfields. NO FLOW really from the looks of it...

Still should be fun as hell I bet...

I'm hoping for a better layout on their next one, could be my first NIB!

There is no rhyme or reason to anything on the PF. orange up there, christmas colors on bottom, a mess of art on top PF and rainbow colors on top right. Its an eye sore to me.

Anything is an eye sore compared to that A**....

I don't believe Stern is using orange plasma DMD's anymore, Vishay/Dale/Babcock are not making them anymore or massive reduction in manufacturing...something like like. There was a post somewhere I read.
It's LED with no HV board display from here on out.

Yea buddy!!

I'm gonna have to start censoring my words like you just did. I got a message telling me to stop swearing.

That avatar says more than any word ever could

I'm about to list most of my games for sale but it doesn't really have anything to do with the new Sterns. Just that recently I realized I only play a couple of them. I'm not playing the others enough to justify owning 6 or 7 games. Maybe downsizing is the case with some others as well.

Does every pin have to flow like a river?

No.

This does look similar to TSPP, a pin I don't care for, so who knows whether I'll like how it play or not. But I LOVE TZ, another stop and go pin, so I could very well wind up loving it.

No they don't all have to flow, but if the ball spends ALOT of time on the upper playfields, it could be a negative IMO. I love my TSPP, but I prefer a more flowing game, and don't really like widebodies either...

I think that was the point of WOZ... to be different and push technology, as Stern was stagnating. Even now Stern keeps re-releasing a slightly modified version of the same playfield over and over... there's something to be said for taking advantage of what's proven to work, but in a single collection it is a bit redundant to have, for example, SM, Tron, and X-Men in your collection with the same layout (mirrored in the case of Tron). WOZ is like a breath of fresh air in comparison.

Yea, only time will tell on WOZ. Balcer only did one game that gets respect, TSPP, and I think that's more because of the ruleset than an awesome pf layout. The other game was South Park, which I think the guy mopping the floors at my local burger king could design a better layout.

I cringe every time I see 'new technology' as a reason for new pins being better. Again, what new tech? Wi-fi, better speaker systems, better glass? Gimme a break. These are all either completely useless or things you could upgrade any game with.

Just to be clear, I agree with what you are saying. Like I said, I have the same concerns. The layout looks similar to TSPP to me, and I don't care for that pin at all. Lots of stop and go. Lots of time on the upper pf. Yet, you say that you love yours. I love my TZ, another stop and go pin.

So my point is that despite the way the layout looks, I think both you and I could wind up loving the pin, despite our concerns.

Huh? Tron and Spider-man have the same layout? Other than the motorized three target stand up bank in the middle of the playfield and they both have three flippers, they have almost nothing in common.

Thank you!!!
I'm an industrial designer by trade and I cannot tell you how many clients I run into that want "new technology" above good design. Creativity, balance, flow... these are what make great games. The skilled designer can take any mechanism, technology or cool new toy and weave it into a spectacular game. Technology can't do it alone.
For that reason I think Stern still has the upper hand. They've got the team: Gomez, Borg, Ritchie etc...
WOZ, in my humble option, looks like it will play like a mess. If I was JJP I would have waited to land a big name like Nordman, Lawlor etc. before starting that project. I really hope I'm wrong because Jack simply cannot afford a flop on his opening effort.
They've packed everything but the kitchen sink into that pin. From a designer's eye, I'm just not sure about this project at all. Fingers crossed though.

Well said JarJar. Stern wasn't doing anything new on their games to warrant the price increase and they just followed suit with JJP. If anything they continued to cheapen them (pegs supports, plastic aprons, clamp lockdown bar, etc.). Wasn't that long ago when I got my NIB SM for $3750. The increase is not just because Stern is making LE's considering BSM was around 4.5K NIB, LOTR LE was 5K, Avatar LE and Tron LE were around 5.5K. The so called "LE's" now are of the same build level as the old standard games like SM, LOTR, TSPP, FGY, etc. Now they just strip down the pro's and run a small number of LE's and charge premium prices. I'm not a Stern hater and have a some my collection, but I don't wear blinders and drink their kool-aid either.

Well, so far I haven't had an issue with the price increases. I have gotten some amazing deals on pins up here and have no worries that I will be able to sell them for what I have in them. I also don't have much of an issue with the price that most of the A listers are going for these days as I don't really want to buy them, with the exception of MB. That one just tickles me in my happy place. Wish I could find one for decent money but wishes are like a-holes or somesuch.

I believe pinball needs to progress and evolve in order to stay alive the technology will be part of it but not the most important. New innovations of playfield design and integration of toys will be much more important.

Why wouldn't pinheads want future pins to be funner than the old? That is something I just don't understand.

please don't do that it messes up the screen for all Ipad users that are trying to read the posts.

Ooooohhhhh. I wondered what was doing that. Lololol

Ahh, that's why my screen has been messed up...I was wondering why it was doing that.

"Similar" is what I meant. Mirror one or the other and you have 5 of 7 identical shots up top.

Frankly, there's only so much space in a standard playfield, so we can pointlessly nitpick pins all day like this. I was sort of pointing out one of the advantages WOZ has with a widebody, while Stern designers struggle making something unique out of those 7 shots in a standard playfield... though, Borg did manage to fit 8 [tight] shots up top on X-Men.

excellent point

That's my point, they aren't similar at all, not even close to being a mirror of one another.

The only similar thing is the target bank in the middle and a side ramp with a flipper half way up the playfield. Please explain these other similar shots as I have these sitting side by side in my basement and they are nothing alike. Tron, Tommy and Funhouse yes, they are very similar, yet play nothing alike.

As far as WOZ being a totally different and refreshing layout, I totally agree.

I agree.
My Tron LE sits right at the end of a row of early-mid 90's W/B games. (tron>DW>FT>IJ>HS2>JM)

The W/B's have 10x more character, better artwork, more interesting pf's and gameplay, excellent factory toppers, etc etc... they don't look dated at all. In fact, I think they look great, if not better than Tron!

all imo of course.

Well, yes people will sell anything to get the latest fix.

However was recently playing Tron LE, LOTR and AFM side by side. The AFM, with new p/f and color dmd looked as good as if not better than both Tron LE and LOTR. Not dated at all.

WOZ may date all dmd games though - we will see.