(Topic ID: 209324)

Evel Knievel with revision 12, MUTHA.PCB not booting up


By JoDaJaJa

3 years ago

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  • 44 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 days ago by Quench
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    #1 3 years ago

    I'm working on an EK for a friend who has had it stored at his cottage, non-working for 8 years. I replaced all of the high and low voltage components , re-flowed all header pins and did the ground and 5V mods on the solenoid board. The MUTHA.PCB MPU 5 volt and 12 volt LED's are lit and I have the 43 volts also, but I don't get any green LED flashes. I can't find any decent info on the MUTHA.PCB on line and can't get ahold of T. Callahan via email. Can I treat this like a standard Bally board?

    #2 3 years ago

    If I remember correctly - his board was a direct copy of the original.

    #3 3 years ago

    How about a flicker? Is the correct chip installed?

    #4 3 years ago

    I believe the correct chip is installed because it was running before the 5 volts from the SDB went out. I am getting a quick flicker on power up/down. The Mutha "manual" states that I need 5 volts on both sides of L2, I'm reading 4.93v but I think that's within tolerance because the 5 volt LED is lit. I have 45.6v on one side of R113 and 22.9v on the other and I'm reading 15.09v for the 12 volt at L1. I do notice that the R11 (82ohm, 1 watt) in the reset section is starting to brown out and is very hot to the touch. The 5 volt test point just below and to the left of R11 is reading 4.68 volts.

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    #5 3 years ago
    Quoted from G-P-E:

    If I remember correctly - his board was a direct copy of the original.

    i see a 6802 cpu, crystal a 6116 ram and no 6810. so the clock gen is different than original (same approach I did).

    Kinda off topic but no dip 26 and 27? He has machine pin socket female strip there and marked as not used?? is dip switch 26 and 27 really not used in any game?

    everything else looks the same, so treat it like a bally MPU.

    Start here

    CPU P40 = high
    CPU P37 = pulse at 0.5mhz

    I see a burnt looking 82 ohm resistor in the reset area. Check him for open. That ram would get no voltage if he burns open.

    #6 3 years ago

    Thanks, I will check the CPU this weekend and also check over the reset components.

    #7 3 years ago

    Yep -- looks like a few changes and the NVRAM is a definite improvement. R137/U15 is also an issue waiting to happen with that board. U15 is a 74LS37 -- with R137 at the low resistance of 150 ohms (almost looks like 100 ohms in photo) his gate #4 is sinking about 38mA yet a 74LS37 is rated to sink a maximum of 24mA. While you have the board out, probably should take the time to change U15 out to an MC3459, 74F37 or 74S37.

    I would have used a totally different approach for the clock gen and stayed with a plain vanilla 6800... But at least he did do away with the 9602. A bit of creativity with the memory map decoding would have put both 6810 and 5101 into separate banks within the NVRAM. ...sigh... I wish I had time for that sort of thing again.

    #8 3 years ago
    Quoted from G-P-E:

    Yep -- looks like a few changes and the NVRAM is a definite improvement. R137/U15 is also an issue waiting to happen with that board. U15 is a 74LS37 -- with R137 at the low resistance of 150 ohms (almost looks like 100 ohms in photo) his gate #4 is sinking about 38mA yet a 74LS37 is rated to sink a maximum of 24mA. While you have the board out, probably should take the time to change U15 out to an MC3459, 74F37 or 74S37.
    I would have used a totally different approach for the clock gen and stayed with a plain vanilla 6800... But at least he did do away with the 9602. A bit of creativity with the memory map decoding would have put both 6810 and 5101 into separate banks within the NVRAM. ...sigh... I wish I had time for that sort of thing again.

    Getting a little off topic here... but using a 6800 CPU would make no sense to me.

    First of foremost the 6800 is rare compared to the 6802. They made the 6802 in way higher quantities, probably 100x more 6802 was produced than 6800. That makes it cheaper and easier to get.

    The 6802 has internal ram in the right place to eliminate the 6810 at U7. Pointless to re route the U7 ram into the NVRAM. Just open up the NVRAM so homebrew software guys can use the entire thing. Saves a dip24 socket and ram or extra circuitry to reroute enabling to the nvram.

    6802 also has internal clock stuff. Sticking a crystal across p38 and 37 is so simple. You can use a complete oscillator if you find getting a 2mhz crystal to start up fast enough is a problem. Using an external inverter and clock circuit is just more parts to stuff.

    Back to the NVRAM... when using a FM16W08 you don't need the diode blocked VUA-Q2 pulling up the d3-d7 since there is no battery backed ram. Sip resistor pull up all eight data bits. That means you don't need a stiff 150 ohm pullup resistor either. When not pulling d3-d7 vua-q2 and you are not buffering a clock gen you can easy a cheap common gate here like 74HCT00. When you go down to just one ROM you might even find an extra gate elsewhere to completely eliminate the need for u15. That move saves at least nine parts.

    Also the NVRAM can be put right on the main vcc rail. It does not need to get powered off of the reset delay. FM16W08 plays nice in this system. Saves that dumb 82 ohm resistor circuit dropping the 12v down for the ram thats wastes power.

    MCP130-460 reset monitor simplifies things even more saves another 10 parts or so.

    1 week later
    #9 3 years ago

    I have the MPU on the bench now and I checked U9 pins 40(high) and 37(strobe) and both are good. I set up power supplies to match the voltages coming from the SDB (5.02v and 15.16v) and have the two red LED's lit and a quick flicker on the green LED. 5.02v drops to 4.32v. I decreased the 15.16v to 12 v to keep the 82ohm resistor from overheating and increased the 5.02v to 5.35v. I get the flashes now except for the 2nd (6810 missing) and 7th (43 volt). 5.35v drops to 4.85v. What chip or component do you think is causing the 5 v to drop?

    #10 3 years ago
    Quoted from JoDaJaJa:

    I have the MPU on the bench now and I checked U9 pins 40(high) and 37(strobe) and both are good. I set up power supplies to match the voltages coming from the SDB (5.02v and 15.16v) and have the two red LED's lit and a quick flicker on the green LED. 5.02v drops to 4.32v. I decreased the 15.16v to 12 v to keep the 82ohm resistor from overheating and increased the 5.02v to 5.35v. I get the flashes now except for the 2nd (6810 missing) and 7th (43 volt). 5.35v drops to 4.85v. What chip or component do you think is causing the 5 v to drop?

    Hrmm

    Sounds like it does not reset on the bench until you mess with the 12v rail (probably normal). Try triggering a manual reset by forcing CPU p40 low (bridge cpu p39 and p40 together briefly) and then count the flashes again. Watch this if you need help understanding the flashes.

    Note the pause between flash ROM test and RAM test (normal). Also you can't notice the flicker on this MPU (to fast for the LED / Camera).

    If your consistently getting six flashes on the bench, you are in good shape. You won't see the 7th flash without the 43v going to the MPU.

    #11 3 years ago

    Thanks for the video @barackandI... I was not aware of the pause.

    So I have my flashes with the board on the bench, but only when I increase my 5.02 volts (initially set up to match what the SDB is putting out) to 5.35 volts. Something on the board is dragging down the 5 volts to 4.32 volts. I have removed every chip one at a time to see if the 5 volts would stay ( found U10 pin 1 bent over- fixed that with no change). I'm about to remove R2 (120Kohms) because I get a reading of 25.9Kohms in circuit but that's probably due to the biasing of the transistors (I haven't had to do that math for quite some time now). I checked all of the P/N junctions for diodes and transistors and they all look fine.

    R11 is reading 81.1 ohms and might be browning due to the 15.6 volts coming in from the rectifier board, which I have not re-worked yet, but it really doesn't look that bad.

    #12 3 years ago

    Sorry barakandl , I noticed that I spelled it wrong in my last post...

    1 year later
    #13 1 year ago

    Does anyone have a manual for the mutha? I need dip switch settings for eight ball deluxe.

    #14 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bassproal:

    Does anyone have a manual for the mutha? I need dip switch settings for eight ball deluxe.

    same as the original manual. so check the EBD manual.aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    1 month later
    #15 1 year ago

    This stops at the 3rd light. I am not gifted in electronics. Dah. Can anyone see what may be going on? Thanks in advance.

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    2 weeks later
    #16 1 year ago

    Replaced u11 and boots to attract mode. Can’t get the credit button to start a game though.

    #17 1 year ago

    Any switches respond in switch test mode?

    #18 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bassproal:

    Replaced u11 and boots to attract mode. Can’t get the credit button to start a game though.

    Your RAM chip has a battery inside of it and looks to be 19 years old now. If it dies the audits can scramble and you may get corrupt value in the current credit audit. Audit 5 is the current credit audit. Use the test mode to get to audit five and push the "activity switch" as it is labeled on your mpu top right of the MPU to clear that audit back to zero. Then see if you can add credits and start a game.

    #19 1 year ago

    Shill post: if you are looking for game play from a top10 player on EK please listen to our latest episode with Eric Stone. It’s about 10 minutes long at the beginning of the broadcast.

    #20 1 year ago

    No, start button doesn’t work and the test button doesn’t work. Nothing. Boots to attract mode. That’s all I get.

    #21 1 year ago

    The test button inside the coin door grounds MPU J3 P1. The diag button ground return goes back to driver J2 P7. I would track out those two connections first so you can get into test mode.

    You can also manually ground MPU J3 P1 to get into switch test and see what is registering or not. The start button switch also goes back to J3. Make sure that connector is on correctly. Your picture shows something odd at MPU J3 (bot right). It looks like the connector was split into two which would make it easy to get mixed up.
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    #22 1 year ago

    Yes, there is something jacked with this connection. I am able to verify the wiring order, colors, are correct. I’ll recheck that it’s plugged in correctly.
    I am not great at this, so just to understand J3P1 and J2P7 both go to the test switch. It that correct? Trace both those wires?
    How do I ground J3P1. Thanks for the help.

    #23 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bassproal:

    Yes, there is something jacked with this connection. I am able to verify the wiring order, colors, are correct. I’ll recheck that it’s plugged in correctly.
    I am not great at this, so just to understand J3P1 and J2P7 both go to the test switch. It that correct? Trace both those wires?
    How do I ground J3P1. Thanks for the help.

    One side of the test button goes to J3 P1. The other side of the test button goes to ground on the driver board. Pushing the button then grounds J3 P1 which should make it go into test/audit mode. The test button does not go to MPU J2. But keep in mind strobe 1, return 1, and etc at J2 and J3 are the same thing. J2 goes to the playfield. J3 goes to the coin door/cabinet.

    Since you cannot get into test mode, start the game or coin up i'd start on figuring out J3. Seems likely the connector hack is causing a problem.

    If you use a gator clip with one side on ground test point or ground braid, then carefully touch the MPU J3 P1 connector pin and it should go into test mode. Four times to step to switch test mode. Then you can put the plug back on and check you switches.

    #24 1 year ago

    Haven’t done your recommendations but wanted to throw in that the coin slot lights (3) do light up.

    #25 1 year ago

    Do the boot indicator light look ok?

    #26 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bassproal:

    Do the boot indicator light look ok?

    Yes that is booting up fine.

    Lights on coin door is general illumination Always on lamps and not cpu controlled.

    #27 1 year ago

    When attaching one end of the alligator clip to the braided ground wire and touching the other to j3p1 I was able to start test mode. All table lights illuminated (a few were out), all score indicator lights were in sync and counted up correctly, and all solenoids fired in sequence (were the flippers supposed to fire?) it even kicked the ball out. Don’t know what the last test was for so I need to read about that and redo it.

    What can I do to test the start credit button? I have the free play relay installed and it puts the credits on the board so I have credits, but start button doesn't work.

    Thinking this is in the coin door completely. Any other ideas to test for the start credit button?

    I have ordered parts to redo wiring for j3.

    Thanks for the help on this!

    #28 1 year ago

    The switch test should be the next one after the sound test.

    #29 1 year ago

    When the credit display shows 00 its in switch test. You can plug the switch connectors back in once in switch test and then see what switches registering correct or not.

    Looking like mpu J3 needs repinned. Get a molex style female side instead of press in IDC.

    #30 1 year ago

    Frustrating. I repinned it and still the same. Door buttons don’t work.

    I went through the test again and have a question. Are the flippers supposed to fire on the 20th test. Nothing happened on 19 or 20.

    Also, I got to the switch test, I think I did, and 03 was just flashing. Couldn’t get the 00 to plug it back in. Don’t know what to do. Manual says the 4x?

    I can’t remember what order but this also happened. What is this?

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bassproal:

    Frustrating. I repinned it and still the same. Door buttons don’t work.
    I went through the test again and have a question. Are the flippers supposed to fire on the 20th test. Nothing happened on 19 or 20.
    Also, I got to the switch test, I think I did, and 03 was just flashing. Couldn’t get the 00 to plug it back in. Don’t know what to do. Manual says the 4x?
    I can’t remember what order but this also happened. What is this?

    In solenoid test the flipper relay will click but the flippers will not pull in unless you have the flipper buttons held down when the relay clicks.

    if switch test shows 03 when both MPU J2 and J3 are unplugged I would think then MPU has a problem somewhere in the return 2 (I2) circuit. Your video appears to show that the start button is stuck which makes the aduit value scroll up. During this video do you have MPU J3 and MPU J2 on or off the MPU. The start button is at Stobe zero and return 5.

    To look for an issue on the MPU in the return 2 area you can measure for 56K resistance across C24 (and all other return capacitors). If zero resistance or less than 56K replace C24 isnt shorted. If over 56K resistance replace R44 (56K pulldown resistor). Open all dip switch banks and try switch test again. Check diodes CR40, CR32, CR24, CR16 for being shorted or broken. If the checks above test out OK, then maybe U10 has a problem?

    1 week later
    #32 1 year ago

    Got the switch to work by replacing/re-pinning the J2 connector.

    Now on to the 03 and why the start/credit button won’t work.

    #33 1 year ago

    Ok. I am looking at this diagram. On the credit/start button I know the red/yellow A4J3-2 and blue/white A4J3-14 comes off the door and I can trace them as connected, but what’s the white/brown A4J2-13 and white/red A4J2-1? Where do they come into play?

    Another question is what is “Strobe” vs “Return” ? I can’t find any definition anywhere on this. I know it’s simple, just need it explained.

    By the way, many thanks for the help.

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    #34 1 year ago

    "Strobe" means that the game sends a +5 vdc pulse down the switch column via the PIA port. One PIA output is used at a time.

    "Return" is the 8 values that correspond to which rows have detected that +5 vdc pulse via a PIA port. 8 PIA inputs are used this time.

    The diodes in the switch matrix prevent voltage leaking from one column to another when the strobe pulse happens.

    1 month later
    #35 1 year ago

    I am assuming a new AllTek board would fix all this. Or would I be more likely to short that board if I put it in the system.

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bassproal:

    I am assuming a new AllTek board would fix all this. Or would I be more likely to short that board if I put it in the system.

    If the switch matrix issue is on the playfield a new replacement MPU is not going to fix. So figure out where the problem is before replacing the MPU.

    Unplug the playfield switch connectors on the MPU and close switches by shorting strobes to returns right at the MPU male connector pins. Work your way through the problem switches. If you get all right numbers closing switches at the MPU the problem is on the PF. If the switch count is still wrong the problem is on the MPU.

    $40 less than Alltek =D.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1055-nvramweeblycom/01281-new-universal-bally-stern-replacement-mpu-

    #37 1 year ago

    I still can’t get it to start a game. Goes into attract mode just fine, but game doesn’t start.

    So I get it into the switch test and do what you suggest? Is that what you are saying? Wondering how I can identify.

    So I disconnected J2 & J3, grounded male pin J3 to get to the switch test and still have the 03 error. I have attached a close up photo of J3 and it looks bad in the areas indicated. Thoughts?

    1AADBED8-0FE5-4AEE-8153-0E5189A7082F (resized).jpeg
    #38 1 year ago

    The fact a connector post is melted makes me think coil voltage shorted to a switch and dumped a lot of current through a PIA port damaging it to the point it melted the connector. J3 typically goes to the coin door, so look around there. Like a coin lock out coil is not shorted to a coin switch or something like that.

    Checking switches at connector pins remove both of the switch connectors on right side of MPU. Then short from ST0 to I0,
    then ST0 to I1,
    then ST0 to I2
    ....
    ST0 to I7
    ST1 to I0.

    You should get a unique number in switch test for each connection. If wrong numbers come up the MPU has a problem. Since ST1 connector is melted I'd guess U10 is damaged

    1 week later
    #39 1 year ago

    Ok. Put a new Alltek board in and it works. BUT the scoring is off. The zeros are 4s. So it starts at 44 points on the score. Really weird. And the scores flicker when pushing the flippers.

    #40 1 year ago

    Not figuring out why the switch connector burned on the last one before hooking up a new MPU puts the new board at major risk for same problem happening to the new MPU.

    The same PIA port that handles switch matrix also controls the display. So a switch problem can manifest with the displays. Sounds like you still got a shorted switch. If the display problem goes away with the switch connectors off its for sure in the switch matrix wiring.

    #41 1 year ago

    Problem solved. I reset the aux lighting board pins and changed the dip settings on the alltek. All good!!!

    Thank you so much for helping. I now have an EBD that works!!! Everyone here is awesome!

    1 year later
    #42 79 days ago

    After some time, and much interaction with this EBD, I was able to get everything working again with the Mutha board. I’ll still have the AllTek installed during play. But question, what is that free play relay? Doe there need to be a chip in it to get free play?

    2 months later
    #43 10 days ago

    I also have one of these boards in a Kiss. The board works fine, but I am unable to change the pricing due to the missing S1-5 and S9-13 dip switches.

    Does anyone know if this was just a ‘feature’ of this board or is there some other way to make those adjustment?

    Thanks,
    Jeff

    #44 10 days ago
    Quoted from spazzman90:

    I am unable to change the pricing due to the missing S1-5 and S9-13 dip switches.

    Does anyone know if this was just a ‘feature’ of this board

    A cost cutting feature.
    You could hard wire the coin/credit settings. Won't look pretty but you could do it on the back of the board to hide it. What S1-S5 and S9-13 settings do you want?

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