(Topic ID: 81512)

** Estimated Value ** -- Who wishes it was back on Pinside??


By Beez

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 53 posts
  • 42 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by wayner
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

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    Topic poll

    “Bring back the Estimated Value”

    • Yes 93 votes
      68%
    • No 43 votes
      32%

    (136 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

    There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 5 years ago

    PLEASE BRING IT BACK !
    I enjoyed seeing this feature while searching Pinball machines on Pinside. I always knew it was only an estimated value but it was nice to see and I for one totally wish it was back. Anyone else miss it?

    #2 5 years ago

    Agreed

    11
    #3 5 years ago

    I wish I could find games at the prices it said!

    #4 5 years ago

    Nope, one less thing flippers and speculators have to look at.

    #5 5 years ago

    You should add a poll.

    Avoids manual tallies.

    #6 5 years ago

    I wish it was back too, how ever they were through ebay sales. You know what Ill take it. It's better then nothing. Bring on the 1,000 dollar bill brackets.

    #7 5 years ago

    I miss the values too. Occasionally I click on the pins and look to see if they are back

    #8 5 years ago

    I hear you guys, I miss that feature too! The problem is in the software and needs serious time to fix this.

    So I have been thinking if it is worth that effort or I should just build another price check feature. The old price check was based on finished Ebay acutions. As most of us know, Ebay is not always the best indicator of pin prices. Maybe we should have some sort of crowdsourced pin pricing index? Where we, the Pinsiders - or at least a subset of trusted Pinsiders - would be able to input our guesstimates for what a game is worth. All inputs would be open and therefore abuse would be easy to spot. As always, I'm open for thoughts and ideas

    #9 5 years ago

    I'm pretty sure that 50% of the time it was 100% inaccurate.

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    or at least a subset of trusted Pinsiders -

    This would be the only way IMO

    #11 5 years ago

    If this will help bring prices down to a manageable point, I'll vouch for it.

    #12 5 years ago

    If I was selling a popular title, I would miss it. If I was buying a popular title, I would be glad its gone.

    If I was selling an unpopular title, I would be glad its gone. If I was buying an unpopular title, I would miss it.

    Make sense?

    2 weeks later
    #13 5 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I hear you guys, I miss that feature too! The problem is in the software and needs serious time to fix this.
    So I have been thinking if it is worth that effort or I should just build another price check feature. The old price check was based on finished Ebay acutions. As most of us know, Ebay is not always the best indicator of pin prices. Maybe we should have some sort of crowdsourced pin pricing index? Where we, the Pinsiders - or at least a subset of trusted Pinsiders - would be able to input our guesstimates for what a game is worth. All inputs would be open and therefore abuse would be easy to spot. As always, I'm open for thoughts and ideas

    Glad you're considering bringing it back ... I enjoyed seeing this feature.

    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    So I have been thinking if it is worth that effort or I should just build another price check feature. The old price check was based on finished Ebay acutions. As most of us know, Ebay is not always the best indicator of pin prices. Maybe we should have some sort of crowdsourced pin pricing index? Where we, the Pinsiders - or at least a subset of trusted Pinsiders - would be able to input our guesstimates for what a game is worth. All inputs would be open and therefore abuse would be easy to spot. As always, I'm open for thoughts and ideas

    I think you have to standardize condition along with estimate of value, if you are going to use an estimate of value, it should be for nice very very good condition game, then obviously high end restores are worth more, beat up/routed games are worth less. How exactly you are going to get this number and make it somewhat legit, way beyond me. Can you take the prices out of Pinball price guide and put them in, at least that is something and while not always exact is a decent number

    #15 5 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I hear you guys, I miss that feature too! The problem is in the software and needs serious time to fix this.
    So I have been thinking if it is worth that effort or I should just build another price check feature. The old price check was based on finished Ebay acutions. As most of us know, Ebay is not always the best indicator of pin prices. Maybe we should have some sort of crowdsourced pin pricing index? Where we, the Pinsiders - or at least a subset of trusted Pinsiders - would be able to input our guesstimates for what a game is worth. All inputs would be open and therefore abuse would be easy to spot. As always, I'm open for thoughts and ideas

    From someone that works in the automotive industry, we work with resale values all the time. We have a program that scrubs the internet to draw vehicles that are the same make, model, trim and compares prices based on mileage variances within a range from the dealership (250 kms - unlimited distance) to allow a reasonable sized sample of the market to determine average value. Of course it would be more difficult to draw pinball ads from a given area using craigslist/kijiji or other pinball forums but if something could be written to do that it would help us all determine what the average asking price is for a pin in the current marketplace.

    #16 5 years ago

    Yes I wish it was back. I used it as a price guide for buying pins. It was awesome, I miss it.

    #17 5 years ago

    Useless

    #18 5 years ago

    Yes, but it didn't seem to be very accurate so I think the problem is trying to provide data that is reasonably accurate. I think eBay used to be a source but I really see very few games sell that way versus a few years ago and I am not sure those sales really represent the market price.

    #19 5 years ago

    I would love to see it back,

    It was a great "guide"
    I don't think it was ever meant to be gospel,

    Helped me gauge the values of games, Or at least where I should be looking,

    Hope you guys bring it backk

    #20 5 years ago

    Always under valued pins every time I looked at it.price guides are the same way most of the time these seem to be if you want out fast today price IMO

    #21 5 years ago

    If you do your homework, you can get a good idea of what any pin is worth.

    If further help is needed, just ask the Pinside family. They're always more than eager to argue, errr I mean help out with their price opinion as well.

    #22 5 years ago

    I would accept 5-10 trusted pinsiders putting in a price and averaging it out for the estimated price. Probably the easiest and best way to go. Hope some step up for that.

    #23 5 years ago

    No because it was not accurate at all. If Pinside let us query the data a la pinballprice, that would be sweet, but an average over an unspecified time period and geography is meaningless (and even moreso not knowing condition).

    #24 5 years ago

    The prices always seemed too low, but even somebody new to Pinside could determine after viewing some prices, which machines were lower cost and which ones were higher cost. It was at least a starting point.

    The bang for your buck ratings were helpful too.

    #25 5 years ago
    Quoted from Starscream:

    I would love to see it back,
    It was a great "guide"
    I don't think it was ever meant to be gospel,
    Helped me gauge the values of games, Or at least where I should be looking,
    Hope you guys bring it backk

    I agree with this train of thought. Just use a range like game x is worth between 1200 and 1800. I think just a working guide would be great. You see price check post's all the time in the forum. It really helps me gauge a "general" market value of a title. Then of course common sense like condition and mods will need to be discussed between seller and buyer before a deal is reached.

    #26 5 years ago

    I use multiple points of reference when I'm trying to determine the value of a given pin, so I would welcome the return of a pricing estimate on pinside.

    #27 5 years ago

    Love the idea of a "range". Seems to be the better way to go.

    #28 5 years ago

    I think I would prefer building a new, "crowdsourced" pricing guide instead of bringing back the old one which was only based on Ebay sales data (and often included false info due to fuzzy searching).

    I would propose something like this:

    - Price input form on machine archive page, allowing Pinisders to add entries to our price database.
    - Prices must be based on actual sales. This will be hard to check but let's suppose people will be honest.
    - All proposed prices will be public (makes it harder for people to try and influence pricing in a bad way)
    - Only trusted (member for x months / having x karma points) Pinsiders can add info.
    - Input fields like:
    * date
    * machine condition
    * machine location
    * currency (EUR/USD)
    * price estimate
    * ...

    This would be relatively easy to build. We could use some math to weed out the "outliers" and I could add a nice graph showing estimates over time.

    What do you think?

    #29 5 years ago

    Don't we already have two (annual or bi-annual) published price guides out there?,
    Mr.Pinball and PinballEric guides
    and at least two online pinball pricing websites/archives?
    Bostonpinball and pinballprice.com
    Those price guides and game sale price archives are all very subjective,
    since a game's condition
    greatly affects the games worth to a certain buyer.
    And what someone calls near mint, might only be average condition to another.
    If you can come up with a standard uniform condition grading system,
    (Like that used for grading comics or coins)
    that would go along way to defining what a game might be worth.
    Condition on a pinball game,
    should be broken down into several categories.
    BackGlass or Translite
    Playfield
    Plastic Sets/Ramps/Bumper bodies
    Cabinet & Legs
    Innards (MPU boards sets for S/S pins or Relays/Stepper units, score motors etc for E/Ms)

    Then define how much (% or sq.in.) of paint flaking on BG
    or wear on PF
    or gouges or scratches (number or length) on CAB
    or Rusting on Legs
    or warping or cracks of plastics
    effects the grade or the condition of the game.
    Then somehow total all that up and weight or average
    those scores/grades into a total Game condition.
    Until a uniform standard for grading condition is universally accepted,
    any pricing guide values are fairly useless and moot.

    #30 5 years ago

    Guides tend to be used as the rule when buyers shop. Market is ok as is. Don't need any more ' guidance'. Too easy to abuse and adds aggravation.

    #31 5 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    What do you think?

    Might want to add state or region game was bought,
    as prices on west coast are generally higher than east coast, or Europe or Down under.

    #32 5 years ago

    Pinball pricing is so flaky and regional that it's hard to have an accurate single source.

    Also, condition plays an important part in what a pin is worth.

    Pinpedia has a decent guide that calls out a range of value, along with specific examples of recently completed sales prices from different parts of the world.

    #33 5 years ago

    Sounds like a great idea Robin. I hope you go ahead with it.

    #34 5 years ago

    Please do!

    #35 5 years ago

    I agree that it should be brought back. However, it should be ranged based instead of a concrete price of say 2500. Would be more like 1800-2800...

    #36 5 years ago

    Well, you've got a decent-sized community that sells pins to each other. You could have pinsiders document completed transactions something like:

    1. I buy a pin from tamoore
    2. I enter the pin, sales price, region, condition (something akin to pin rating system) and serial number of the pin.
    3. He enters the same details as above..
    4. Do some math to normalize our collective assessment of condition.
    5. Update moving avg for that title.

    It's true that ebay prices and probably CL prices will be higher, but a purchaser can adjust for that if s/he chooses.
    By having both parties certify a sale, you have some expectation the data isn't crap. Maybe require that at least one of the pinsider's have some amount of tenure ( 6 mos?) to weed out people trying to scam the system. If two parties try and ping-pong a pin between them to manipulate the price, you ban 'em or exclude them from using the feature.

    Something like that might work. Either that or build an extension mechanism into pinside so you can shop out your light work to others. Maybe expose services to you via REST or whatever.

    #37 5 years ago

    If I sell a pin to a fellow Pinsider ( which has happened), I wouldn't document it here. Tends to be a more private affair I would think.

    Too many variables to make a general sales guide relevant. Would be nice to see, but BPA price guide is pretty irrelevant to the point of useless as a selling or buying tool. Of course that uses eBay sales as the guide.

    #38 5 years ago

    Yes and needs to be based on documented competed sales, not what people are asking for on E-bay. Asking price can be anything does not mean it ends in a completed sale.

    #39 5 years ago

    I thought all machines were valued at $10K by Christmas?

    #40 5 years ago

    I'd like a tiered system myself. Poor (broken parts, faded, damage), Average (100% working, minimal wear, slight fade ok), Collectors. $1200, $2000, $2800. I doubt it would help much though in those situations when someone has a beater and wants the top dollar.

    #41 5 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I think I would prefer building a new, "crowdsourced" pricing guide instead of bringing back the old one which was only based on Ebay sales data (and often included false info due to fuzzy searching).
    I would propose something like this:
    - Price input form on machine archive page, allowing Pinisders to add entries to our price database.
    - Prices must be based on actual sales. This will be hard to check but let's suppose people will be honest.
    - All proposed prices will be public (makes it harder for people to try and influence pricing in a bad way)
    - Only trusted (member for x months / having x karma points) Pinsiders can add info.
    - Input fields like:
    * date
    * machine condition
    * machine location
    * currency (EUR/USD)
    * price estimate
    * ...
    This would be relatively easy to build. We could use some math to weed out the "outliers" and I could add a nice graph showing estimates over time.
    What do you think?

    We already have a field for price paid on machines in our collection... I'd assumed that was being used in machine price estimates before. No?

    #42 5 years ago
    Quoted from devlman:

    I thought all machines were valued at $10K by Christmas?

    exactly and from parts prices on ebay with parting any machine is likely to make you a few grand easy.

    #43 5 years ago
    Quoted from tjsynkral:

    We already have a field for price paid on machines in our collection... I'd assumed that was being used in machine price estimates before. No?

    Nope, right now that is considered private data and it is/was not being used.

    Quoted from swf127:

    Well, you've got a decent-sized community that sells pins to each other. You could have pinsiders document completed transactions something like

    I like the idea. I don't see why people would not participate in this if the sale itself is made anonymous. Let's say I sell a Twilight Zone to you for $3k. I could then add that sale to the Pinside price database and specifiy you as the reference. The record would then show

    Date: 2014/03/12
    Sold on: Pinside
    Game: Twilight Zone
    Condition: Very good condition (plus an explanation what this means)
    Price sold: $3,000
    Confirmed by buyer: Yes
    Photos: [shows photos that originally belonged to the MarketPlace ad.]
    etc...

    I like keeping it all based on Pinside transactions, no more prices from Ebay, Craigslist etc

    #44 5 years ago

    Too many variables, too convoluted, market changes to quickly, varying issues with a machine can vastly change price. To many thieves, not enough honesty. Sorry, but that's the harsh reality.

    Do not put the ability to influence market value of machines, into any small group of people's hands. No matter how "trusted".

    When all is said and done, a pin is only worth what you value it at!

    #45 5 years ago

    This is a global site. Pinball pricing is far from global. Collecting information is too hard and impossible to normalise. Whatever the posted average price is for a TZ, the global market will still be $3500/$10000 depending on about six different inputs. I love the idea of published price data for any tradable underlying, and it would be cool to see it, but I fear you would spend hundreds of hours trying to build something and find you would not get satisfactory results. The only way you could get anywhere close to collecting good data is if this site actually became a pinball exchange, but then all proper exchanges rely on one unbreakable rule..the underlying asset being exchanged must be a commoditised asset, and pinball machines are, again, pretty freaking far from a commodity. I would sum this up as a great idea that lots of people would like, but is simply impossible to pull off.

    #46 5 years ago

    Not sure why any are saying they are afraid of this. It's a "guide" for pete's sake. Just because a guide says that your machine is worth $2000 doesn't mean you have to sell it for that.

    2 months later
    #47 5 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I hear you guys, I miss that feature too! The problem is in the software and needs serious time to fix this.
    So I have been thinking if it is worth that effort or I should just build another price check feature. The old price check was based on finished Ebay acutions. As most of us know, Ebay is not always the best indicator of pin prices. Maybe we should have some sort of crowdsourced pin pricing index? Where we, the Pinsiders - or at least a subset of trusted Pinsiders - would be able to input our guesstimates for what a game is worth. All inputs would be open and therefore abuse would be easy to spot. As always, I'm open for thoughts and ideas

    Anymore thoughts on reconnecting this program?

    #48 5 years ago

    Or you can take the data from pinsiders that added or sold their pins in their profile. There is a section in there that asks how much you bought or sold it for. Even all the flippers and spectators around can't really mess with those numbers much. You can also build a threashold that takes the average price and will only take data that is (lets just say) +/- $500 from the average selling price. This would control sudden large drops or gains in prices. Flippers can't inflate the price and buyers can't dump it. Only way pin prices go up and down is on a gradual scale. There was also another post last week about how pins are sold in very difference prices when you compare east coast and west coast prices. Maybe that is also a good way to separate that data. everything east of the rockies and west. You don't want west coast prices to drive up pins and east coast prices to drag down. "guestimates" are just that a guess. This I think would be a better way in gathering real data of pinsiders transactions. Pinside is one of the largest pinball forums around. I would assume that what we put in our profiles for sale and buy prices are more accurate then some guy that found a pin in dads garage and puts it up for $10,000.

    3 months later
    #49 5 years ago

    Is Pinside any closer to the return of Estimated Values? I miss this feature ... Doesn't have to be perfect buts it's nice to see comparisons.

    1 week later
    #50 5 years ago

    Working on it! You can see my current estimated values here: https://pinside.com/pinball/top-100/bangforbuck

    I'm using some algorithms to generate this information and it still needs to be improved but this is a start! At least it's no longer based on Ebay prices.

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