(Topic ID: 172426)

ESCAPE! - A New Pinball Project

By jim5six

7 years ago


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    There are 220 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 5.
    #51 7 years ago
    Quoted from Nelly:

    Actually it can be done with the help of only 1-2 people and even from a great distance. Buffy was completely developed between me, my programmer Michael who lives in Boston and my artist John who is out of MO. Michael and I hadn't even meet in person until well over a year into our project (still havent met John in person). Now I know some think Buffy is only a SOF with some clearcoat, but it is probably one of the most ambitious retheme project out there and at this point is just as hard to replicate as a new build would be. At any rate, it was done by 3 guys that are over a thousand miles apart, and only in our free time. Its amazing what you can get accomplished with someone so far away, and even without meeting them in person.

    Nelly,
    The Buffy table and how you guys were able to work at long distances definitely inspired me and made me feel confident that we could do this! I absolutely love the work you guys did!
    -Jim

    #52 7 years ago
    Quoted from jim5six:

    Nelly,
    The Buffy table and how you guys were able to work at long distances definitely inspired me and made me feel confident that we could do this! I absolutely love the work you guys did!
    -Jim

    Thanks Jim! I appreciate that. I am looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with. It sounds really cool!

    #53 7 years ago

    Got the wiring done for the first flip test today. Not much to look at but good for test:
    wired (resized).jpgwired (resized).jpg
    Here is a video of te first flip test: First youTube video ever.. not sure how to link to it but we'll see if this works.

    #54 7 years ago

    I think the middle of your playfield is a little open.

    #55 7 years ago

    Nice, I have that much on my PF as well, but mine doesn't flip, so you are further along than me.

    #56 7 years ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    I think the middle of your playfield is a little open.

    Right now it's a copy of AFM.

    #57 7 years ago

    Yay, First flips are the best

    #58 7 years ago

    Very cool, must be a good feeling! Great job!

    Is it just my video or are the slings super strong?

    #59 7 years ago
    Quoted from etlandfill:

    Very cool, must be a good feeling! Great job!
    Is it just my video or are the slings super strong?

    Yes, slings were way to strong in the video. I have dialed back the pulse time now. Like I said first flip so everything was set at default power and those were way to powerful.

    -Jim

    #60 7 years ago

    Congrats! Getting that first flip is an amazing feeling.

    Now please, go out and buy a 1000-pack of zip ties for $2. Keep it clean now and you won't have to deal with a wiring mess later!

    #61 7 years ago
    Quoted from jim5six:

    Yes, slings were way to strong in the video. I have dialed back the pulse time now. Like I said first flip so everything was set at default power and those were way to powerful.
    -Jim

    Absolutely understandable. That's a good thing to know - I'm hoping to get my first flip in the next month or two. I'm designing all my electronics, so that's a good lesson learned for me. Can't wait to see how things progress on yours!

    #62 7 years ago

    Weekend Update:
    We cut a new "real" whitewood playfield. Nice to see the repeat-ability of the CNC in action!
    whitewoodwhitewood
    We also began the table layout process in VP.
    VPinballVPinball
    And built our first cardboard ramp to see how Virtual compares to reality. Pleasantly surprised actually! Lego supports, perfect!
    Paper RampPaper Ramp
    Time for a break!
    Break timeBreak time
    That's it for now, thanks
    -Jim

    #63 7 years ago

    Shouldn't there be beer on that table in the last pic?

    #64 7 years ago

    Yes, yes there should!

    2 weeks later
    #65 7 years ago

    Not much of an update as we are busy working in Virtual Pinball designing the playfield. I am also trying to figure out the best way to capture video so this is also a test of that.
    Testing the flipper power required to get the ball to the upper playfield:

    #66 7 years ago

    Added the Orbit loop to the playfield. We have a layout we are pretty happy with so hopefully I can get most of it laid out for testing over the holidays and I can see if the shots translate for Virtual to the real world and tweak as needed to avoid ramp exit to center drain and things like that. Need to buy some more hardware but that will have to wait until after the holidays so everything will be cut outs and fake for now.
    -Jim

    #67 7 years ago

    I'll be following this project. Best of luck!

    #68 7 years ago
    Quoted from jim5six:

    » YouTube video

    Almost made that ramp shot off the slingshot in the final second of that video!

    #69 7 years ago
    Quoted from RyanClaytor:

    Almost made that ramp shot off the slingshot in the final second of that video!

    Ha! I know I think the sling might be a bit overpowered!

    -Jim

    #70 7 years ago

    Thanks Rockytop!
    -Jim

    #71 7 years ago

    Will you be sharing the Visual Pinball table when the project is finished?

    #72 7 years ago

    I think so... it may not be 100% because I suspect at some point I will be concentrating on the real thing, but I would like to if it is complete enough to play. As I say that I wonder if we want to figure out the code in VP as well as python or if it can be used... haven't really crossed that bridge... haven't even built that bridge!!

    -Jim

    1 week later
    #73 7 years ago

    Got some work done on Escape! I printed the layout full size and placed some posts and the pop bumpers in place. I do not have any steel strips yet but I will have them soon and can make some ball guides and see what some of these shots feel like. The pop bumpers are set with low power for now so I don't fling the ball and kill myself! For those interested this is a pulse time of 5ms.
    Here are a couple videos:


    #74 7 years ago

    Added some card stock walls and it starts to feel like pinball!


    -Jim

    #75 7 years ago

    Cool stuff. I saw the ball going to a lot of the spots where the shots will be. So we're on the right track!

    -Mike

    1 week later
    #76 7 years ago

    End of the year progress. Figured it would be good to get this for posterity. added third flipper, metal rails and rubber bumpers. Not all of them... but progress. Need to change some things that dont work how they do in VP but i expected that. Anyway, happy new year to all!


    -Jim

    #77 7 years ago

    Nice project. Curious how far you can develop the game in 2017.

    #78 7 years ago

    Don't forget while developing your design to allow for everything you need under the playfield in advance, so you can keep all your t-nuts and fasteners through the playfield away from mechanical fixtures. And make allowances early for lamp holes, wiring holes and mounting points. Every switch or electrical component above the field will need a point for the connector to thread through from the wiring below.

    Manuals and parts lists will also be your friend.

    #79 7 years ago

    On the Antek power supply...
    for the +5 and +12 volts DC you're better off using a switching power supply. These are cheap, like $20 to $30. I would get 5 amps for the +5 and 10 amps for the +12 volts. If things change you can always get a better/worse switcher for these voltages at low cost.

    Then for the lamp matrix (18 volts) and coils (50 or 70 volts), for that you want to use the Antek power supply. The Antek is a linear power supply. Which is what you need for the coil voltage. You can't use a switching power supply for the coil voltage. You can for the 18 volts, but you might as well use the Antek because it can supply up to two voltages.

    Also on the Antek power supply, they have a design flaw. there is no fuse on the input side of the bridge rectifier for either voltage! This is a major flaw, but luckily, it's easy to correct. Make sure you put an 8amp fuse on one of the leads going from the round transformer to each of the bridge rectifiers. If you don't do this and a bridge shorts, you will fry that Antek transformer. And since those things are like $130, it's a pretty expensive mistake. Note this is the same flaw Williams had on all their solid state system3 to system11a games (and two fuses needs to be added to those games too.)

    Also note that the Antek, at least on one of the two voltages it supplies, is only rated at 2 amps. That's good enough for the 18 volt lamp matrix (assuming you use LEDs.) But again if you're using this for 5 and or 12 volts, the Antek really is not a good choice.

    #80 7 years ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    On the Antek power supply...
    for the +5 and +12 volts DC you're better off using a switching power supply. These are cheap, like $20 to $30. I would get 5 amps for the +5 and 10 amps for the +12 volts. If things change you can always get a better/worse switcher for these voltages at low cost.
    Then for the lamp matrix (18 volts) and coils (50 or 70 volts), for that you want to use the Antek power supply. The Antek is a linear power supply. Which is what you need for the coil voltage. You can't use a switching power supply for the coil voltage. You can for the 18 volts, but you might as well use the Antek because it can supply up to two voltages.
    Also on the Antek power supply, they have a design flaw. there is no fuse on the input side of the bridge rectifier for either voltage! This is a major flaw, but luckily, it's easy to correct. Make sure you put an 8amp fuse on one of the leads going from the round transformer to each of the bridge rectifiers. If you don't do this and a bridge shorts, you will fry that Antek transformer. And since those things are like $130, it's a pretty expensive mistake. Note this is the same flaw Williams had on all their solid state system3 to system11a games (and two fuses needs to be added to those games too.)
    Also note that the Antek, at least on one of the two voltages it supplies, is only rated at 2 amps. That's good enough for the 18 volt lamp matrix (assuming you use LEDs.) But again if you're using this for 5 and or 12 volts, the Antek really is not a good choice.

    Stern Spike only uses a switching power supply, correct? Why is it that it works for that?

    #81 7 years ago

    I can't explain that. All i know is i've tried several different 48 volt switchers for coils (from 2 amp to 20 amp) and it just does not work. For regular coils it's OK. But flippers, forget it, there isn't enough power. Could not make long shots or ramp shots. Put in the Antek linear 50 volt supply and BANG it worked great! So good i had to change the programming. With a switcher most coil timing was like 30 to 100 milliseconds. With the linear that all dropped from 5 to 20 milliseconds. It's the drop out that's the problem. Maybe Stern uses a capacitor on the back end of the supply? I don't know, but i could not figure it out, so i changed to linear for coils. And since the new Sterns don't have schematics, i have no idea what they are doing.

    #82 7 years ago

    Great progress and vids OP. Looks like a really fun project.

    Quoted from cfh:

    I can't explain that. All i know is i've tried several different 48 volt switchers for coils (from 2 amp to 20 amp) and it just does not work. For regular coils it's OK. But flippers, forget it, there isn't enough power. Could not make long shots or ramp shots. Put in the Antek linear 50 volt supply and BANG it worked great! So good i had to change the programming. With a switcher most coil timing was like 30 to 100 milliseconds. With the linear that all dropped from 5 to 20 milliseconds. It's the drop out that's the problem. Maybe Stern uses a capacitor on the back end of the supply? I don't know, but i could not figure it out, so i changed to linear for coils. And since the new Sterns don't have schematics, i have no idea what they are doing.

    With time I'm sure we'll figure out how they make it work.

    #83 7 years ago

    desertT1 - thank you it has been a fun project. Now that I can add or subtract things form the board and see the affect it has on the play its even better. Trying to get a good balance of shots from each flipper is hard/challenging but i am enjoying it.

    chf - Yes getting the power right is a major concern. Once you start adding things like the computer that's driving everything the p-roc boards that need 5 and 12 volts, the lights... It can make your head spin. I agree that separate power supply for some things is a good idea and I already have a Mean Well power supply to run the Fade Candy set up I plan to use for the rgb leds. I am not currently using the 12v I have now off the Antek so it may well go away. But thank you for the info I will take all the info I can for sure!

    -Jim

    #84 7 years ago
    Quoted from sven:

    Nice project. Curious how far you can develop the game in 2017.

    As am I!! I figured it would be good to have the year end documented so I will be able to look back and see.
    and thank you,
    -Jim

    #85 7 years ago
    Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

    Don't forget while developing your design to allow for everything you need under the playfield in advance, so you can keep all your t-nuts and fasteners through the playfield away from mechanical fixtures. And make allowances early for lamp holes, wiring holes and mounting points. Every switch or electrical component above the field will need a point for the connector to thread through from the wiring below.
    Manuals and parts lists will also be your friend.

    This is the REAL challange... I don't know how some machines do it! for every thing you add its like a new puzzle to figure out how the insert light fits, does it have a coil and where is that? Upper playfield targets, switches... flippers... it will drive you nuts!!

    -Jim

    #86 7 years ago
    Quoted from jim5six:

    This is the REAL challange... I don't know how some machines do it! for every thing you add its like a new puzzle to figure out how the insert light fits, does it have a coil and where is that? Upper playfield targets, switches... flippers... it will drive you nuts!!
    -Jim

    That's why you want the parts lists and the manuals to hand - they'll give you a lot of information about how things are sized, and how they fit together. After you lay your shots and ball guides down, this is the part to concentrate on next. What's above the playfield is always going to take a lower priority to work around than what's below it. You seem to be doing pretty well so far - I still use VP as a layout and test tool myself.

    #87 7 years ago
    Quoted from cfh:

    I can't explain that. All i know is i've tried several different 48 volt switchers for coils (from 2 amp to 20 amp) and it just does not work. For regular coils it's OK. But flippers, forget it, there isn't enough power. Could not make long shots or ramp shots. Put in the Antek linear 50 volt supply and BANG it worked great! So good i had to change the programming. With a switcher most coil timing was like 30 to 100 milliseconds. With the linear that all dropped from 5 to 20 milliseconds. It's the drop out that's the problem. Maybe Stern uses a capacitor on the back end of the supply? I don't know, but i could not figure it out, so i changed to linear for coils. And since the new Sterns don't have schematics, i have no idea what they are doing.

    The Antek supply isn't a linear, just an unregulated supply with better output capacitance. A linear supply provides voltage with less ripple and better low-frequency response than switching supplies, but any drop in voltage is literally burned off (current in = current out, so the supply itself heats up by the difference in power between the input and output). The Antek supply is just a transformer, rectifier and low pass filter.

    The switching supplies should work fine, but the problem with the coils being underpowered was because the current couldn't get to the coil fast enough. Additional capacitance is needed because the caps are designed to charge and discharge quickly - supplies themselves are designed for providing long-term, steady-state power and leave any non-DC demands to caps. If you were to add some caps to the switching supplies, they should be able to provide that extra juice that your coils need.

    Glad your solution worked though :

    #88 7 years ago

    I added some card stock ramps. The white "tube" will be a wire ramp/tube from the launch lane. The right ramp will exit on the upper playfield. The left ramp will make the far right corner then turn into wire and exit to the right inlane. One of these videos ends with the ball entering the "Closet Lock" hole location behind the upper right flipper. One of the videos ends with the ball orbiting and upper flipper hold shot into the "Mode Completion" hole location. All balls travel via subway and will exit the "Mode Start" scoop yet to be made and tested, its now the white paper square on the lower right.
    Thanks,
    -Jim



    2 weeks later
    #89 7 years ago

    Mike (@Sliderpoint) was in town this week and we were able to get a significant amount of work done to the playfield. Most of the playfield features are installed. We can now concentrate on making some more realistic ramps and play test this thing for a while while we decide what to do for the upper playfield and work on the code for modes and such. currently the drop targets are set to just reset on start of a ball. I am really happy with the shots so far they are fairly evenly spread out over the three flippers. The three of us also put our heads together and have a plan for the scoop and how the ball feeds to it will work.

    We made our first metal cage ramp to use to launch the ball up and over the upper flipper and "closet ball lock" and I am very happy with it. I cannot thank Bonnevil69 enough for his tutorial posted up on pinballmakers.com. It was extremely helpful! so thank you!
    Here come the pictures: i will get some video this weekend hopefully...
    launch_ramp2 (resized).jpglaunch_ramp2 (resized).jpg
    launch_ramp1 (resized).jpglaunch_ramp1 (resized).jpg
    completed_ramp (resized).jpgcompleted_ramp (resized).jpg
    Launch_ramp_installed (resized).jpgLaunch_ramp_installed (resized).jpg
    playfield_1-17 (resized).jpgplayfield_1-17 (resized).jpg
    playfield_1-17 (resized).jpgplayfield_1-17 (resized).jpg
    playfield_1-17_2 (resized).jpgplayfield_1-17_2 (resized).jpg
    playfield_1-17_3 (resized).jpgplayfield_1-17_3 (resized).jpg

    #90 7 years ago

    Lookin great! Good to know the card stock holds up so well. I'll be testing that out on my new machine soon. Do you have EOS protection on your flippers? I'm not sure if the humming I'm hearing is the primary coil being overworked or if I'm just not used to hearing coils without a lot of sound in the background.

    #91 7 years ago

    The P-ROC system uses pulse time to hold single wound coils. PWM is used to pulse the coil for like 2ms then wait like 20ms and repeat to hold the flippers. So to answer your question, no I do not have EOS switches the hold is system controlled. I think the biggest contributor to the loudness is: 1. the sensitive microphone and I'm in a pretty small room where the noise bounces around, 2. the fact that the machine is not in a box and under glass... just taking the glass off your machine can be jarring because its so much louder and that is still in a cabinet...
    BTW, thank you, card stock has held up better than i wold have guessed so go for it, its cheap and easy to work with. I have always liked painters tape but it has become my best friend I am very surprised at how well it holds up under pinball conditions.

    -Jim

    #92 7 years ago

    This is super cool. I have a thousand questions but most of this is way over my head anyway. Do you have a plan for artwork yet? Keep up the good work.

    #93 7 years ago

    Nice Job on those forms. Look at that its even welded and not soldered or brazed. Excellent Glad to see the tutorial is being used to help other custom builders

    #94 7 years ago

    Yeah man the tutorial is great! At first we were like "There's no way bending the rod around the PVC is going to be smooth and tight!", but then once you start its like bam! perfect! Yes it is welded, Now that i see it the change I am making is to hit the weld on the back side of the rails, so that standing in front of the machine, you barely see anything.
    Thanks again,
    -Jim

    #95 7 years ago

    Yeah. Welding in the back is usually what I do. But sometimes you can't for a few welds. Depends on the design complexity.

    3 weeks later
    #96 7 years ago

    So, it's been a while but some work has been getting done. Most of it doing 3D design work and figuring out my new 3D printer so I wanted to wait until I had something real to update.

    I took the simple design for the ramp out of VP and using fusion 360 created a ramp. I took that ramp and cut it into several pieces so I could print it on my 3D printer.
    2017-01-31 21.24.55 (resized).jpg2017-01-31 21.24.55 (resized).jpg
    In the end the small ramp took 5 pieces to create the ramp; here it is taped together:
    2017-02-01 18.48.56 (resized).jpg2017-02-01 18.48.56 (resized).jpg
    I then used some abs slurry to glue the pieces together. I am surprised at how well this worked. Seems good and strong.
    2017-02-04 11.52.54 (resized).jpg2017-02-04 11.52.54 (resized).jpg2017-02-04 18.20.26 (resized).jpg2017-02-04 18.20.26 (resized).jpg
    My end goal is to use this the fine tune the ramp and then create a negative buck from it. I can then use it to vacuum form a standard plastic ramp.

    -Jim

    #97 7 years ago

    I wanted to figure out a way to easily mock up the wire rails before we went to the trouble of getting them all welded up. I cam up with a 3 clip system. A 2 wire clip, a 3 wire clip, a 4 wire clip and an end cap ball drop.
    2017-02-01 22.01.20 (resized).jpg2017-02-01 22.01.20 (resized).jpg
    The 1/8 wire snaps into the pieces and allows me to mock up and even test the shot to the rail and make sure its what I want. I am extremely happy with the way these came out and how well they work.
    2017-02-03 16.11.57 (resized).jpg2017-02-03 16.11.57 (resized).jpg2017-02-03 16.25.42 (resized).jpg2017-02-03 16.25.42 (resized).jpg2017-02-04 14.25.28 (resized).jpg2017-02-04 14.25.28 (resized).jpg

    I am also playing around with what else I can print now that I have a good 3D printer.
    2017-02-10 20.30.42 (resized).jpg2017-02-10 20.30.42 (resized).jpg

    -Jim

    #98 7 years ago

    Those clips are awesome! This is the first time I've actually wished I had a printer of some sort.

    #99 7 years ago

    Love the printer work -- clips and ramp look great!

    #100 7 years ago
    Quoted from jim5six:

    I wanted to figure out a way to easily mock up the wire rails before we went to the trouble of getting them all welded up. I cam up with a 3 clip system

    So did I:
    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Files_Section
    wireform_bracket (resized).jpgwireform_bracket (resized).jpg

    There are 220 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 5.

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