(Topic ID: 260925)

Eproms and Burners

By oldschoolbob

4 years ago


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  • 104 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by slghokie
  • Topic is favorited by 35 Pinsiders

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    #10 4 years ago

    I am using two burners right now. I had a GQ-4X for like 8 years now. Great device, does the 25Vpp chips like 2532, 2732, 2716 that some of the lower end burners will not do.

    I bought a TOP3000 to be able to program the DIP42 EEPROM MX29F1615 which the GQ4X does not support. The TOP3000 software is a little more quirky, but it is faster to program and overall has larger range of compatibility GQ4X. Downfall for TOP3000 is it does not program 21Vpp and 25Vpp chips. They are listed in the device list but they won't program. I am using TOP3000 for everything but 2732, 2532, and 2716 which I burn on GQ-4X.

    I think the GQ-4X would work well for you needs if you want to focus on the old bally/stern games. Yes it likely needs an external power supply depending on the USB port. I reused an old wall wart DC power supply.

    How long does a chip take to erase?.... depends.... 5min to 60min. The M2732A bootlegs commonly available with a tiny die erase very fast. Some of the late 70s and early 80s chips with very large die inside the window can take much longer to erase. Best I can tell is generally erase time mostly based on how big the die is inside the chip.

    How many are bad? ... depends again. The M2732A bootleg batches range from 100% all work to 50% are dead on arrival. Pretty much if it burns OK and verifies OK the chip is fine and will run forever. If you get an immediate write error or the chip refuses to erase it is bad. W27C512, M27C040, M27C160 and MX29F1615 are chips I commonly use and those ones have a much high success rate than the DIP24 chips like 2732

    Can you erase non windowed chips?.... depends on the device. If the device is OTP (one time programmable) than you get one shot at burning it, no erasing. If it is a UV EPROM you bake it in UV light to erase. If it is an EEPROM the burner will erase it pretty much instantly. AT28C16 is an EEPROM version of 2716. M27C512 is an EEPROM version of 27515.

    Where do you get chips? ... All the chips used on old bally games are long obsolete so you are reusing chips pulled off of board or at the mercy of the grey market sellers mostly from China. They are typically less than a dollar each and expect some to be dead on arrival. Most of the time, most of the chips will all work. Occasionally i've had bad lots. Usually they come from China erased, cleaned up, and legs refinished.... so ready to use.

    Typically you pick what EPROM to use based on the file size of the ROM AND how the board is jumpered. A smaller memory size can be replaced by a larger memory size when the pin count and pin out matches. So a 2732 can replace a 2716. A 27512 and replace a 2764, 27128, or 27256 because they are all DIP28 ROMs following a standard pin out. You just fill up the larger EPROM with repeated copies of the data so no matter where the CPU is set to look for the program it will find it.

    This chart from wikipedia helps with EPROM sizes.
    Untitled (resized).pngUntitled (resized).png

    #23 4 years ago

    Seems like the over exposure is pretty extreme and not something to worry about for the most part. Sometimes I just set it to the max time length and let it go. I've had one or two stubborn chips end up baking for multiple hours before it finally erased all the way. Then it burned and worked fine.

    The little Blue/grey Chinese eraser Quench posted is the one I use. I've had it nearly 10 years now I figure and it is still going on fine. Lamp has never burned out or anything. It erases a M2732A with a small die in about 10 min.

    #42 4 years ago
    Quoted from pinfixer:

    I think you're probably right. I've used other Mfr's 2732 and when selected on the EMP-21 program much faster. AMD for example program at what my memory recalls to be about 45 seconds.

    I've definitely run into that issue in the past and have changed the resistor to clear up the flickering issue. Your research gives a lot more clout to the reasons why.
    I've also fiddled with the CPU clock speed. As @barakandl says there seems to be a "sweet spot" for the 6800 as well. I had an 8-ball one time that just played dead. No matter what you changed physically on the playfield, it just seemed anemic. Changed the MPU and it was night and day. Play improved and was more lively. After some research on the two MPU's I found the clock speed on the 6800 was much different between the two. This was like 25 years ago, but I recall changing something to get the clock speed increased to the 2nd MPU's and then the original MPU produced game play that was comparable to the second MPU. If that makes sense

    resistor or cap in the clock circuit can adjust the speed. The original caps probably have big tolerance ranges.

    Changing these caps to 220pF gives you pretty close to the MPU200 clock rate.

    3 months later
    #47 3 years ago
    Quoted from Joydivision:

    Having problems getting my GQ-4x4 to work on my new pc with windows 10. Getting a message that the burner isn't connecting to the software. Was fine on the old pc. Tried to update driver in case that may have been the problem, but was unable to - not sure if this was the problem anyway. Have also tried the early software that came with the burner & the latest software from the mfg site.
    Anyone know if the problem is driver related & what to do, or what else I could try to get it working?
    Thanks.

    I have an older model which you have to install the driver manually. it does not plug and play properly.

    Download and extract
    http://www.mcumall.com/downloads/download.asp?DownloadID=56

    From memory... plug in usb plug the burner

    open up device manager (search for device manager in the win10 search by the start button)

    find the unknown device in other devices expanded part. If there is more than one unplug / plug in the burner noticing what disapears/comes back.

    Update driver. Choose browse for driver manually. Point at the folder from the download link.

    Quoted from RoyF:

    I am learning a lot by reading this thread and I'm sure many others have too - thanks to all that have contributed! Another thread I also read is https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-burning-a-stern-rom#post-4592642.
    I have some follow-up questions, mainly surrounding terminology in stating size of a chip, size of a ROM image file, and corresponding pinball manufacturer documentation.
    When someone refers to an EPROM or PROM only by size, say "a 512K EPROM", does the number represent Kbits or Kbytes? One example would be Stern SB157 that discusses using a "blank 512K EPROM" to update the sound OS on a Whitestar board. I looked at the biosv8.u8 file for that sound update, and Windows shows the file as 128KB (bytes) in size on my hard drive, so it would seem that Stern must have meant a chip of 512Kbytes in size, not 512Kbits. So, a 27C010 chip. But that doesn't make sense as the chip at U7 is physically smaller than a 27C010 chip. U7 (the location where the sound update chip would temporarily be installed) is described in the LOTR manual as "27256 / 27512, CPU Sound, 512K". Both of these chips would be the correct physical size for the socket at U7, so Stern must have been talking about a 512kbit EPROM after all. But neither a 27256 or 27512 chip can hold a 128Kbyte file, so I'm still missing something here. Perhaps the 128KB file size I see for the biosv8.u8 file on my hard drive is not the correct way to identify the actual size of the image in the file?
    Here is another example, just in case there was something uniquely odd about the example above. If I look at the directory entry for a ROM file extracted from a zip file on my computer, and that file is shown as 128KB (KB means bytes in this case) on disk, then how does that relate to the size chip needed to burn that file to an EPROM? For example, the CPU file in the LOTR 10.0 or 10.02 zip files both result in an extracted file that is 128KB as stored on disk. The readme file says "Game ROM 1M". The LOTR manual shows U210 as "27C040 CPU Game, 1MB. The PinWiki chart shows the 27C040 as a 4Mbit / 512Kbytes chip. Why would Stern say 1MB in the manual? Would one use a 27C040 chip and just multiply the software file as many times as necessary (quadruple it) to fill the 27C040? Could one instead use a 27C010 and burn the image without multiplying it to fill the 27C010?. What about a 27C020, could that chip be used with a doubled software file? Was Stern thinking to the future in specifying a 27C040 chip, so future games could have significantly bigger code and still run on this board? Or by specifying a 27C040 chip do they for some reason really want that size chip to be used and not a smaller chip? Or was there a typo in the Stern manual and they should have said "27C010 CPU Game, 1MB"?
    The Stern manual's documentation for U7 puzzles me for another reason. The PinWiki chart shows 27256 as a 256Kbit chip, and 27512 as a 512Kbit chip, so these are different size chips. Could Stern really have used either chip in U7 even though the diagram also says 512K, or is this really always a 27512 512Kbit chip?
    And finally, the Stern manual's documentation for U37, U36, U21 and U17 also puzzles me for a different reason. These are described in the manual as: "M27C04000I-12FI, Voice ROM x, 8MB". PinWiki shows the 27C040 as 4Mbit chip, but Stern lists as 8MB on the diagram. What chip type is really used in these locations, a 27C040 4Mbit chip or a 27C080 8Mbit chip? I guess I could understand if the "8MB" had been a size smaller than the specified chip (could multiply the image to fill the chip), but 8MB is larger than the specified chip size! The actual image files seem to be only 1MB, so perhaps the 8MB shown in the Stern manual is a typo?
    Thanks for adding some clarity!

    Sounds like there is some bit / btye confusion going on and some of that may be Stern's fault. Documentation may be wrong or the EPROM size got larger in later versions but they did not update documentation.

    EPROMs follow a standard pin out so a larger EPROM can usually replace a smaller size in the same pin count package. IE 27512 can replace a 2764, 27128, and 27256

    Use the file size of the image to decide what ROM to use. In windows it shows bytes so mutiply by eight. If your file is 128KB in windows explorer would go fit on a 1Mbit 27C010 but you could also use any of the other 32pin JEDEC standard pin out EPROMs as a replacement IE 27C040. Just fill up the EPROM with repeated copies of data until full.

    Here is a chart on wikipedia that will help pick an EPROM based on the file size.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPROM#EPROM_generations,_sizes_and_types

    #55 3 years ago
    Quoted from RoyF:

    How do the Checksums work for EPROMs? I just noticed that the checksum calculated by the GQ-4x4 for a given image file changes based on what Device you select. It varies for size of EPROM, and even more interesting for the same size EPROM the checksum differs between different EPROM manufacturers. For a particular file I have, when I select AMD AM27512 the GQ-4X4 software displays a checksum value of 00A68ED5, but when I select ST M27512 the GQ-4X4 software displays a checksum value 00FC9040. Why is that?
    Hmm, it may be because I was erroneously looking at a file too large to fit on the target EPROM. Using another file, 64KB in size, I get exactly the same calculated checksum values when selecting either the AMD AM27512 EPROM as the Device, or the ST M27512 as the Device, which seems normal.

    After you change chip profile in GQ-4X reopen the image file.

    If you open a 4k image while a 2k chip is selected and then select a 4k chip the software will truncate the last half of the image. So you must reopen the file again. I hope that makes sense.

    2 years later
    #65 1 year ago

    Get the largest size EEPROM in the pin count package. It feels like a waste of money to stock 2764, 27128, 27256 and 27512 when a W27C512 can replace all of those and is probably the cheapest. There might be some rare cases where you need to pad the data in a certain way to use a 27C512 as a 27256 (supposedly some R-Dog sys 11, but not sure as the stock boards work fine with larger mem), but normally you can fill up the chip with repeated copies.

    SST27SF256

    has good endurance, 1000 cycles 100 years. But ive seen some flash memory I end up not buying because they are only guaranteed to hold memory for ten years after a burn, which is probably a conservative estimate, but worth looking at the datasheet and considering.

    #74 1 year ago

    When i fixed original boards the PROMs on William's speech boards very often had bit rot. There would just a few a words garbled. Read back the chip and it was mostly good. Those are masked ROMs though if it matters. I can't really remember any other bit rot like issues on old EPROMs that where not a total failure of the EPROM and usually caused by over voltage or plugging the chip in "upside down".

    I got back a GTB System 3 MPU where the six pin power connectors for the power board got swapped. Every EPROM in the game but the GPROM was damaged to a point it was totally dead. The MPU GPROM did not verify right but was close, I was able to erase and reburn it and it seemed fine.

    My BSD occasionally gets a credit dot for ROM checksum error at power on. It always plays fine, I've ignored it for a couple years now.

    11 months later
    #94 5 months ago

    I've had shit luck with any 24 pin EPROM lately. Years ago I the 2732 pulls from China where generally OK enough. Get bad batch every now and again. I bought from a few batches from different sellers and most of the 24pin erpoms like 2732 wouldn't take a burn.

    Bigger the die, bigger the fail rate. At least it seems so... Even applies with the 27C160s I use. Whenever I peal a label off a 27C160 and see it is the giant sized window version, I go dammit. I don't think I've successfully re-used one of those yet. Rarely have an issue with the 28-32p EPROMs

    Been meaning to try some AT28C16 salvages. Strange and unfortunate they didn't make AT28C32... skipped over to 64K

    #98 5 months ago

    As far as the bootleg 2732s... start at the lowest voltage and work your way up. If it takes an abnormally long time to program, probably need to go to the next voltage up.

    #103 5 months ago

    i'd consider that a remark.

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