The thing that is interesting on pay is when someone consensually agrees to do a job for a payment that is determined prior to hire and then gets the job and then demands more money. This comes up quite a bit in the service industry with entry level jobs especially minimum wage positions. However minimum wage jobs were not designed to be career jobs. That seems to be becoming a forgotten fact.
Like at the mom and pop diner where the breakfast cook makes $15 an hour and the bus boy makes 8.50. Well lets make minimum wage $15. Now the bus boy makes as much as the cook, and the owners cant pay the other staff more to balance it out. So the cook says "F*&^ this why am I cooking when I can just bus tables for the same pay?" and now you have a crappy work ethic cause the cook is pissed and my goddamn eggs arent cooked right and i get burnt toast.

Or they are realizing that in the current environment their labor is quite valuable and they can prioritize enjoying their life over settling for a job they don’t like. It won’t be like that forever, but right now it is and they are taking advantage of it. They are clearly making enough to be comfortable. Just because they aren’t doing what you did doesn’t mean it is wrong.

I have to respectfully disagree, because I am like the op, in my mid 50's and work circles around most that are younger. Work, grind and hustle, MAKE ME FEEL GOOD. I have never been compelled to SAY IT until I read your post.

Well damn. If that’s the case, doesn’t that mean your struggling boss was picked as a loser and your seemingly happy son was picked as a winner?

Maybe your son just realizes that he'll never live up to your expectations. Why bother trying if you know you won't be good enough?

Also I wouldn't say that overlords are incompatible with capitalism...I'd say they might just be the natural progression of it. Atlas Shrugged explains that in some kind of way at least.

Uhh… how do you except a cashier or a person running a class as a teacher to just do the eork whenever they please?

The job is to staff a position at a certain time and place.

Your retort blaming leadership is ignorant of the actual circumstances

So you work because you feel some sense of moral obligation, not because you want to or have a passion for it or it makes you feel fulfilled as a person? I think you're accidentally proving my point for me but let me know what I'm missing.

Well hey that's good, that's what's important. Experiencing life with my wife and son make me feel good. You enjoy the office, I'll do enough camping for the both of us.

I’m just trying to make sense of who gets picked as winners and losers. If it isn’t based in capitalism, what metric is being used by these “overlords”?

Yes I agreed with you in my earlier post. I was referring to certain jobs.

Most work is not ‘just deliver a good’. Be it staffing a retail spot, be it providing services, be it answering a phone, or whatever.

Even professional jobs often have an expectation of availability. It hurts productivity when accessible goes down. It’s why developing products across the globe is thst much harder than single site or time zone.

But the general topic here is about lower level work becof the age group being discussed.

It’s easy to fire one for not producing- its far more frustrating to fire people over and over because they can’t even bother to show up long enough to finish their PAID training

I am not talking about personnel income taxes,I am talking about a company moving to another State after being offered tax advantages.

Good for you pops..have at it.

I hear that a lot... that minimum wage jobs are just meant for students. But if that's REALLY the case, who's going to make the fast food during the day? Who's going to sell those clothes to you during the day?

So what’s the excuse when the job isn’t shit?

It’s not just bad employers struggling to get good help. Are you involved at all with trying to staff new hire positions?

Taking advantage to do what?

This isn’t a slick move to maximize pleasure. They are trying to get a job again somewhere else right away.

They are kids living at home who are actively seeking work but can’t keep a steady job because they are shit employees. Then whine about the job that had the nerve to fire them for NCNS repeatedly

More Businesses Leaving California In 2021 Than In Any Other Year Prior According To New Analysis
CA lost 74 businesses in the first half of 2021, could reach as many as 150 by end of year

By Evan Symon, August 30, 2021 3:26 pm

A new analysis recently released by the Hoover Institution of Stanford University found that the number of businesses leaving California in 2021 has significantly picked up compared to the previous three years.

According to the analysis, California has seen 265 companies leave California for other states since 2018, with 114 alone moving to Texas. While 2018 – 2020 remained somewhat steady, with 58 leaving in 2018, 78 leaving in 2019, and 62 leaving in 2020, 2021 has already seen figures double. In the first half on 2021, 74 companies have already left the state.

While there have been some bigger name companies leaving, such as HP Enterprise and Oracle, most leaving are usually smaller companies or simply a headquarters relocation that still keeps the bulk of jobs in California. However, the Institution notes that the loss of small companies with the potential to quickly grow also leads to stagnation in businesses and innovation

“Losing small but rapidly growing businesses is a death knell to an economy, because long-run economic growth requires new, transformative ideas that ultimately displace old ideas,” the analysis found. “And the transformative ideas almost invariably are born in young companies.”

The Hoover Institution also noted well over a dozen reasons for the exodus of businesses including the bad business climate of the state, high business taxes, a difficult legal climate unfavorable to businesses, difficulty in obtaining business permits, high labor costs, overtime laws that start time and a half pay for both working more than 8 hours in a day and 40 hours in a week rather than just 40 hours in a week, high energy costs, a lack of affordable housing, high cost of living, not enough tax credits encouraging businesses to stay, and no overall reduction of business taxes in California.

My point was that over emphasizing start and quit times is a cop out for poor leadership in professional settings. Of course there are customer facing positions that require being staffed at certain hours which are a condition of employment. I'm saying in cases other than that it shouldn't matter. Of course there is an expectation of availability as well. If the work can be done under flexible conditions, I believe the employer should support that which leads to attracting better talent.

If the argument is a time of day issue then apply it to something else to see if it makes sense.
Example with a trade job:
1. My pipe burst so my plumber came out at 11am and charged me $225 for the fix.
2. My pipe burst at 2:45am on a Sunday so my plumber came out and charged me $500 for fix.
Now minimum wage job:
1. You sold me a T-shirt at 6:30pm and the store paid you minimum wage.
2. You sold me a t-shirt at 9:42am on a Tuesday so the store paid you $27 an hour

Kinda hard to swallow that one.

Again people in minimum wage positions CONSENSUALLY AGREED TO THE PAY.

I'm pretty sure they call that indoctrination these days. But I will say that if you've never been screwed over by a company you probably have no reason to think badly of them.

Or the people that blow their lunch to pieces in the break room microwave and just leave it!

I've been a one man cnc machine shop since 1990. I started my own business in '99.

Things have been tough lately. What I've learned through the years...my customers have a policy in place that requires them to get 3 competitive quotes prior to out-sourcing the work. Prior to bidding, the decision had already been made as to who will receive the work. More and more often lately, my customers would reach out to me for a quote, (knowing all along I wouldn't get the work). The role my company filled was I was able to provide the customer one of the 3 required quotes they need in order to out-source the work. I've told these customers that I can no longer provide a quote for free. I haven't heard from any of them since. I've been working for a few of these customers for 20+ years.
Just goes to show you what 20+ years of loyalty get you these days....nothing.

I also don't know about your family dynamics. But I do know if my dad was making posts shitting on me on a public forum that I'd be pretty hurt. It sounds like you really want him to be successful, and to that I would say that if he's already suffering motivation issues that piling more pressure on him isn't going to help him get off his ass.

This topic sounds like you've been having a bad day/week/year. I dunno but that's just my guess. I'm just trying to point out that when you punch down on the "lazy kids" below you that it can just as easily be aimed at you or your boss. There's always someone out there that worked harder or smarter.

That's an interesting take on the flip side. Did you ever ask any of them why they didn't choose you?

I've had the opposite experience. I can't get anyone to actually return a call or come to give a quote, or if they do, they come up with a reason they can't do it. I realize things are behind, but they act like they don't need any money...

The basic reality is the vast majority of jobs are shit when you get right down to it. And other than a small handful of people who make it a point of pride, most people have no interest in work being their purpose in life. The basic point of this thread is correct, people don’t want to work. We work because we have to, that’s the society we live in. But if we had a way to live comfortably without it, we wouldn’t go to work.

Companies are still in the mindset of thinking that offering the job is the gracious part and employees should be happy to be employed. That’s not the way the labor market is right now. Companies are offering people something they inherently do not want; the pay, benefits, hours, work environment, etc is what makes them take the job they don’t and stay there. If they aren’t taking it or staying, the company isn’t offering enough.

And yes, I’m involved in interviewing and leading people at my job. It’s a very competitive industry where most people can have multiple job offers any time they want. The key to keeping people is all the things I listed before. It’s impossible to keep everyone obviously, but if you listen to what people want and provide it to them, many good people stay.

I agree 100%. Since Covid dole, there are considerably more dead beats on the roadways!

So, you work for money, not for pleasure? I'm not sure why you're laughing as we're (apparently?) making the same argument, albeit it it took you a few hours to get there .

Speaking of ethics, how many of your 10K pinside posts in 5 years were on company time? Do you calculate that and pay them back?

I was actually told this from one of my customers who has since retired. I've been working with him on projects since 1990. New management steps in and want to do business with their "buddies".

Whenever my dept would run a hiring process, we would always have over 5k apply, then knock that down to sixty or so for an academy. Now, they are lucky to get a few hundred apply, and basically no one makes it to the final hiring stages. They keep "dumbing down" the requirements to just get warm bodies...Then they end up getting fired, make the news, or just end up being a completely useless "warm body" who is "offended " by literary anything. It's a shitty job, but also one where you can have no experience or education and make six figures your first year with a little OT. And if you have a degree, you get more (I get a bonus check every year for my degree).

I'm so glad to see the scales tipping to the advantage of the worker. I remember being told SO MANY times "You don't like your job? Quit. We have 25 people waiting to take your place...you need us more than we need you."

That kind of abuse made me get the right degrees (engineering), join the military (officer), get valuable experience, and now I never have to feel that way ever again.

I am working on my 14th year in active duty - 6 more to go until retirement. I am separated from my significant other and the kids 330 days of the year. I see them about 30 days a year. I'll retire at age 47, and that may be the first chance I get to really be with/live with my family.

That said: ANY company that tries to make me choose between family or working to the bone will be told to fuck off - especially with a pension coming in that will pay my mortgage and more. YOU need me more than I need you.

Same as the student loan crisis - have someone else pay for it and call it forgiveness!!

So in other words, this "capitalist" country has gotten so accustomed to burning their people out, and people have become such workaholics that doing WHAT THE JOB ENTAILS AND NOTHING MORE is seen as some terrible buzzword that Tiktok started? NO. That's doing what you were hired to do, and fuck you if you want to try to overwork me. Mental health is priority. Time with family is priority. WORKING MY ASS OFF SO YOU CAN BE MORE RICH can go under the category of "Eat shit and die".

If I saw someone working 7 days a week for 6 years I would think you're a fool, a masochist, or you are single and absolutely love your job more than life itself. No personal offense to Dayhuff - but that would be my immediate reaction.

Maybe they decided the night before they’d rather enjoy life with their friends, doing whatever experience they were doing. When they made the decision to miss work, it’s because they realized the job they had wasn’t in any significant way different or better than another job they could go get so they didn’t care if they lost it. The job didn’t give them a good enough reason to show up and they have other options.

Again, economics. Just like if you want someone to buy your product you have to demonstrate why it is better than similar products. If you want people to work for you, you have to show them why they should. If you can’t do that, you have to be happy with what you can get. Or go out of business I guess, no one is forcing you to run a business.

I have worked for the largest tract builder in the country, and it was a horrible leviathan, and that is precisely why I am a proponent of keeping the federal government as small as possible. Virtually any employee of any company can say they have been screwed. My comment was refuting the statement that implied, that you are a sanctimonious liar, if you say you like work grind and hustle. There actually may be merit if someone is producing a lot more saying than doing.
When I worked for said national builder, I made an initial commitment of 2 years, and 2 weeks before 2 year anniversary I tendered my notice. I hated it and will not work for a large corporation again. There were probably 100 times I could have said I got screwed, but in reality it was all part, of what I made a commitment to be a part of.

What goalposts? I've been asking you the same question and your answer changes every time. First it was the elderly, then the ethics, now the money. My question hasn't changed but your answer seems to. Anyway, enjoy the hustle.

I am the Foodservice Director for a year round camp and I can attest that the younger generation gets sick a lot. Nobody wants to work and that makes it miserable for the people who do work especially in my field. I always liked doing what I do but my current situation makes me want to retire earlier than I wanted to.

Kids these days, a thread:

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulisci/status/1558579983022338048

B84BE75E-9D2B-4BC8-829E-D93994D7EBE9.gif

You need both in and out data to get a more accurate picture. For example while companies do indeed leave, California still has the most new companies formed here.

"According to Statista, the number of new tech companies in California is the largest in the US, with more than ⅓ new companies compared to the next state - Florida. "

...but then we're starting to really get out of the scope of this thread.
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I'm sure he wasn't chosen because of cost. Then bought from China.

This is a difficult topic to understand and to talk about. If you want to really understand what's going on, ask some economists, not pinside.

All my questions involve money. It sounds like you'd choose work for money over not working for money. Is that a "goalpost free" summary of your position?

It's a nice place to be to have retirement near. I'm loving this whole thread. Yeah, I'm one of the older ones here. Been at my job 40 years. I have a very (VERY) unique skill set. I had planned on retirement in 2019, but my employer has been begging me to stay on. I could easily retire at anytime. At this point, I'm losing a bit of money working (compared to retiring). That alone is a bit of a problem. We penalize workers (via mandatory SS taxes, and taxing the SS taxes - that's just nuts). None-the-less, as long as my job is fun and my employer is bending over backwards to keep me happy, I'm good.

I've worked with younger employees, students, and others for most of my career. Part of my job is teaching younger folks, including formal classes at various Universities around the country. Things HAVE changed in the last 6-8 years. It's obvious to me. Young folks have a very different skill set and ethic. Some of this is good; most of it is bad. I can't say I blame them. Though they may not know how to articulate it, they're screwed. Honestly, the US is screwed. The accumulated debt, the aging of the population, and unsustainable government benefits (mainly, Medicare and SS) will result in an inevitable crash. I know what that crash looks like, and it isn't pretty.

The short version is this: we've backed ourselves into an unsustainable fiscal position. We'll never pay off our $30T debt. Include unfunded liabilities, and it's closer to $75T. There's 3 ways to address this: raise taxes, lower benefits, or devalue the currency. The first 2 of these cannot be done in sufficient volume to address the problem. Consider taxing. The default position of the majority in the US is: tax the rich. Go ahead. Do it. Take it ALL. Every last cent of those in the upper 10%. You've addressed maybe 1/4 of the problem. It's not politics. It's something far harsher. It's called "math". How about cutting benefits? Will never happen. Once the majority figures out a way to vote itself the proceeds of the nations' treasury, they'll never turn back. Already, 70% of all government expenditures are for "entitltements" that happen automatically by law. Those will never go away. Thus, the only way our crisis resolves is via the the 3rd option: devaluation of the currency.

In English, this means printing money to pay off debts and fund benefits (or as the kids today say, Money Printer goes Brrrrrrrr). This isn't new. It's been done throughout history, with predictable results. The US will eventually come to a point with hyperinflation, unpayable interest rates, and a dramatically lower standard of living. It will arrive suddenly. The first clue will be an inability to sell government bonds to anyone but the Federal Reserve Bank (the entity that controls the printing of money). We're very nearly there. I forget the actual figure, but something like 75% of government bond issues were bought by the Fed during COVID. Would you loan money to the US government? At 3%? When inflation is 3 times that figure? I sure wouldn't. Compounding this problem will be loss of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency. This is more complex, but its already underway.

The underlying reasons for this unsustainable position are many. At their core is the imbalance in the US between worker productivity overall and our expectations for our standard of living. In sum, we don't produce enough stuff ourselves to maintain our standard of living. We've been living off debt and the willingness of other countries to supply us goods and services at rates we ourselves are unwilling to work for. This is also unsustainable. You see it all over this thread, itself. Many here want to be independent of the need for work. Once enough people feel that way, there's not enough folks working to provide for all those that don't. Pretty simple, actually.

I've known this was inevitable for decades. It's one reason I never had kids. I can't imagine having children now, and knowing what's coming. I'm just old enough to live off the last of the inertia in the system, built upon generations of hard-working folks whose gifts we're now squandering.

Such a shame. My last bit of comment is to those younger generations: God bless you! You've voted in a regime and government that spends your entire inheritance and them some, lavishing this largesse on today's older generations. And, I'm pretty sure you've done this without even being aware of the results for you to come! You're easily the most magnaminous generation in American history. In a few decades, you'll be cursing us older folks. For now, you're too clueless to see what's coming. Thank you!