(Topic ID: 137410)

Embryon Reset Frustrations - Finally Solved!

By Hi-Fi

8 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

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  • 30 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Hi-Fi
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Embryon_SwitchMatrix_ID.jpg
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#1 8 years ago

My Embryon has been plagued with what seems like random reset issues. Sometimes it will just skip to another player mid-ball during a multiplayer game. Sometimes it will just start a whole new game in the middle of a game. Other times it will just randomly slam tilt itself in the middle of a game.

I rebuilt the connectors to the power supply board. I just recently installed a Rottendog rectifier board because my old one had a hack done to it and looked a little roached out.

What other things could possibly causing these issues. I'm getting frustrated. I need to get this game reliable for league play.

#2 8 years ago

Sounds like you're having logic communication glitches. Carefully reseat the 6800 cpu, the two 6821s, the ROMs and the 5101 (USE STATIC CAUTION!). Basically all the MPU socketed chips. Be careful not to bend any legs under.

If all the other board connectors haven't been rebuilt they are probably in need of service like your rectifier connectors were.

#3 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Sounds like you're having logic communication glitches. Carefully reseat the 6800 cpu, the two 6821s, the ROMs and the 5101 (USE STATIC CAUTION!). Basically all the MPU socketed chips. Be careful not to bend any legs under.
If all the other board connectors haven't been rebuilt they are probably in need of service like your rectifier connectors were.

Indeed, rebuild all of the connectors. Save yourself a lot of grief chasing gremlins.
Been there, done that on my Embryon & Mr & Mrs Pac man.

#4 8 years ago

I would try a new 5101, it can cause strange things to happen.

#5 8 years ago

I'm putting my money on 5101 being bad.

But the whole -35 needs updating if you want bulletproof gameplay:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-quick-bally-driver-board-repair-bulletproofing

#6 8 years ago

Could definitely be flaky logic or connectors, but I would put it into switch test and see if there's anything weird happening before diving into the MPU. Something funky in the switch matrix can also cause these kinds of symptoms.

I've also seen a bad 5101 cause these symptoms, as others mentioned.

#7 8 years ago

That is a good point. The fish paper insulator behind the start button should be checked as well.

#8 8 years ago

I think you have a switch with a shorted diode somewhere.

Couple of options...check the diode on every single switch in the game for shorts (a drag), or video the gameplay and capture when something weird happens (easier). Much easier to narrow the problem if I can see a video.

#9 8 years ago

It could be any of those things but don't look past a faulty capacitor on one of the tilts aka (door, playfield, cabinet) I would put it in switch test and slam the game around. I would also cut those little caps off the fore mentioned switches. The key for me is when it's skipping a player. It thinks it's tilting and thus skips a player. Todd Scott

#10 8 years ago

Ok, dumb question.. Can I check the diodes using a DMM while they are still connected to the switches? I may have to just grind it out and test them all. This has been going on a long time and I have tried to pay attention if it is a particular switch but it seems complety random.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

#11 8 years ago

Sometimes when it skips to the next player it adds up the bonus and then just starts adding points to the next player. So it's acting like a ball drain??

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

Ok, dumb question.. Can I check the diodes using a DMM while they are still connected to the switches? I may have to just grind it out and test them all.

Not a dumb question. Yes, in diode test (the --|<-- symbol) you can test in circuit. It should read about .500 in one direction and infinite with the test leads reversed. If you get a steady tone the diode is shorted.

Quoted from Hi-Fi:

This has been going on a long time and I have tried to pay attention if it is a particular switch but it seems complety random.

It seems random, but it's not. With a shorted diode it takes a specific sequence of 3 simultaneous switch closures to cause the MPU to think a 4th (undesirable) switch is closed. Typically, certain drop targets account for some of the closures.

Quoted from Hi-Fi:

Sometimes when it skips to the next player it adds up the bonus and then just starts adding points to the next player. So it's acting like a ball drain??

Exactly, the outhole would be the 4th switch. Every one of the symtoms in your original post points to this type of problem.

1 week later
#13 8 years ago

I tested all the diodes... They were ok. I put a new 5101 chip in and now my sounds are messed up!! There is no background sound and I just get bleeps and bloops when switches are rolled over. WTF??

Help!!

#14 8 years ago

You'll need to set the sound option again (gets "reset" to default when you remove the batteries or change out the 5101). You'll probably want to set it to "03".

From the manual..
embryon_sound.jpgembryon_sound.jpg

#15 8 years ago

Thanks!! I was reading in the manual for trouble shooting for no sound but I didn't see that section. I think I was just freakin' out a little. This thing has been a thorn in my side for a long time. I didn't need any other problems. Haha

#16 8 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

Thanks!! I was reading in the manual for trouble shooting for no sound but I didn't see that section. I think I was just freakin' out a little. This thing has been a thorn in my side for a long time. I didn't need any other problems. Haha

Yeah, when you first start with the Bally machines the sound thing can really throw you. Once you know though, you're good for next time

1 year later
#17 7 years ago

Ok, I see it's been almost a year and I never tracked down what caused this issue until tonight!!

Here are the crazy things that happen.

The following things happen when the right flipper is held up and the following switches are activated.

- "A" rollover switch is activated the upper saucer fires.
- "special" in left in lane causes a game tilt
- "B" rollover acts like a ball drain
- "Special" in right out lane causes another player to be added mid-game.

Ok, now how the heck do I fix this???

#18 7 years ago

embryon (resized).jpgembryon (resized).jpg

#19 7 years ago

I believe there's a matrix switch piggy-backed on the flipper's EOS switch that activates "FNIP-Save" flipper. Make sure those two switches are isolated from each other.

Put some insulator between that switches' contacts and see if problem remains/changes.

#20 7 years ago

Looking at the switch matrix Vid posted and your description of what's going wrong, you've got some switch ghosting going on between the ST0 and ST1 signals. When the switches on strobe ST1 are closed, they're being shadowed to the switch return lines on ST0.

When you checked all the switch diodes, did you also check the diodes in the cabinet/front door switches (tilt/slam/start/right flipper)?

I've added the cabinet/door switch details (in red) below to Vids switch matrix to fill in the gaps. Note even though the right flipper button is in the cabinet, it's wired as a playfield switch.

Embryon_SwitchMatrix_All.jpgEmbryon_SwitchMatrix_All.jpg

#21 7 years ago

I don't think I checked the diodes on the coin door. I can't remember. I will have to recheck them.

Is it possible that the matrix switch next to the EOS switch is wired wrong?

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

Is it possible that the matrix switch next to the EOS switch is wired wrong?

Which matrix switch are you referring to?

#23 7 years ago

According to the diagram above, it sounds like you have a shorted diode on coin chute 2.

#24 7 years ago

Actually the coin chute switches don't have diodes. I should have removed those diodes from the coin switches on the diagram.

To the OP, does the problem occur when all drop targets are reset in the up position?

#25 7 years ago

I was referring to the second stacked switch on the right flipper. When the EOS opens this switch closes. At least I think it is supposed to close. That's how it's set to work on my machine.

I'm not sure if the drop targets affect anything. The problem seems to center around the right flipper. Everything works as normal unless the right flipper is up. Then the switches mentioned above act strange.

#26 7 years ago

Put the game in switch test and raise the flipper by hand. Hold it up. What does the Credit/BIP display show?

[edit] based on the following post, ignore this one.

#27 7 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

I was referring to the second stacked switch on the right flipper. When the EOS opens this switch closes. At least I think it is supposed to close. That's how it's set to work on my machine.

That second stacked switch on the main flipper EOS switch activates the upper right flipper and actually isn't part of the matrix.
Sorry, I wasn't clear about that above. The matrix switch for the right outlane flipback flipper is actually the second stacked switch on the right cabinet flipper button. Check the diode on that switch. The schematics say this right cabinet flipback flipper switch is wired to the playfield switch connector (J2) at the MPU board, not the cabinet switch connector (J3) at the MPU board, but anyway.

As you may or may not know, the switch test in service mode will only show the lowest logical switch number that's closed, i.e. if you press and hold the "A" Rollover, the player displays will flash "12", but if you then drop the ball in the outhole, the player displays will flash "08" and the closed "A" rollover switch "12" won't be displayed again until you remove the ball from the outhole.

So with this in mind, going through the switches backwards, can you try this when you get a few spare minutes:
1) Make sure all drop targets are reset up. Remove the ball from the outhole.
2) Go to the switch test in service mode. The Match/Ball In Play display should show "0"
3) Activate and release one switch at a time starting from the highest number switch working down towards the lowest number switch. When you get to the drop targets, drop one then lift it and move to the next.

Does any switch report the wrong number in the player displays when you close it?

See the attached diagram showing the switch numbers in Blue. Highest logical switch number starts at the bottom right corner and finishes with the lowest switch number at the top left.

Embryon_SwitchMatrix_ID.jpgEmbryon_SwitchMatrix_ID.jpg

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Actually the coin chute switches don't have diodes. I should have removed those diodes from the coin switches on the diagram.

If it had a diode the switch would have to be stuck closed AND the diode would have to be bad to exhibit this problem.

Without the diode it's even better. Check to see if coin chute #2 switch is stuck closed.

#29 7 years ago

Yes, a coin chute 2 switch stuck closed would explain the behavior and will show up in the switch test as closed with the ball removed from the outhole.

#30 7 years ago

I can't believe it but the issue is finally solved! It was a stuck coin switch on coin shoot #2!! Thank you to everyone who responded to this thread helping me try and figure out what was wrong and how to fix it.

It's crazy how those coin door switches can cause so much havoc. I have an EM that was acting crazy and it was all due to a closed switch on the coindoor also.

Now when something is broke instead of saying "it's probably just a fuse" I'm going to go with "it's probably a stuck coin door switch."

Thanks again!

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