(Topic ID: 65974)

Embryon Owners Club & Restoration Thread, Fans Also Welcome


By Hellfire

6 years ago



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#19 6 years ago

The wheel isnt as worn as the three upper rollovers. A buddy of mine just got himself an Embryon. The plan is to make some good scans of the plastics. Few of mine are cracked but intact ( i still have the pieces just not re-glued together)

if you ever have issues with phantom pop bumper activity, check the caps on the switches, obviously the switches themselves, and add a type 31 ferrite core on the wire harness going to J4 of the solenoid board. This will prevent the bumpers from firing erroneously due to stray RFI/EMI.

2 weeks later
#27 6 years ago
Quoted from schwarz:

Where do you find such a thing?

Mouser.com or digikey.com has them. All ferrite cores are not created equal. I mentioned specifically type 31 as it is meant to suppress frequencies from say 1mhz to say 100mhz effectively. Fair Rite specs say type 31 is good up to 300mhz, however the effectiveness drops after about 100mhz. Then you would need to use type 43 ferrite if you have RFI/EMI in the 300mhz and below. I have not experienced pinballs to have interference issues in that frequency range, their processors simply dont clock that fast. (newer pinballs maybe so, but should be sufficiently shielded and hopefully better designed)

http://www.fair-rite.com/cgibin/catalog.pgm#select:freq1

The idea of a ferrite toroid around the wiring harnesses (signal and power wire connectors to the coils) of the SDB is to prevent the collapsing magnetic field of the flipper coils to backfeed back into the harness and erroneously open the gate of the transistor that fires the bumper coils. The ferrite acts like a resistor at the RF frequencies of the collapsing coil magnetic field, dissipates it away as heat but allows signals below its targeted suppression frequency range to pass freely.

if your hair catches fire after reading this i can explain further.

Post edited by Pinwiz1985 : more info

#29 6 years ago

All ferrites look the same, just the size and mix is different. Fair rite part# 2631801202 should be enough size to get one or two turns of the harness and allow the IDC connector to get through the middle of the toroid. I have this one in my machine. I was able to get 4 turns of the harness in it. The one catch was I had removed the molex/idc connector to do it since I had to repin it anyway.

If you wanted to go a bit overkill in size you can get part# 2631626202. The problem is now you will need to support the thing somehow without it weighing down the harness stressing out the connectors. Its heavy! However it offers the most suppression ohm resistance per turn of the wire harness.

Something else to keep in mind is incoming AC RFI/EMI. There is a power filter connected right on the incoming AC cord inside the bottom cab. Its a silver box, has a MOV on it located usually on the left wall. Often times i find that these units are worn/failing and do not filter the EMI/RFI coming on the mains AC cord as well as it did 30 years ago. I replaced my EMI/RFI filter on my Embryon as I noticed phantom popping/scoring when my small beer fridge would kick on/off. While it helped the phantom popping and scoring still happened on occasion.

EMI/RFI issues is a pain in the ass. Often times its a bad ground or failing component that fixes these issues. Ferrites help a great deal, and essentially compensate for a bad circuit design that isn't properly shielded.

1 week later
#34 6 years ago

Machine looks great! Coming along well! Gotta hand it to ya, you got balls like a brass monkey for doing this work yourself. When i get my PF restored I'm sending to HSA in Chicago. I like that they reuse the original inserts and have in house graphic artists. I like originality then functionality for this game in particular. Not many were made, and less probably have survived since 1980/81.

I'm pretty badass with electronics, but artwork is something I don't have a natural inclination with.

3 weeks later
#40 6 years ago

How much would you charge to do that to my embryon? Mine is all original, no work done to it. Mylar only around the bumpers and slings. Brian at HSA said hes got about a 6 month turn around at least being so busy.

#49 6 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

IDK do you have detailed pictures of your playfield?

i can post a few after the holiday sure.

1 month later
#74 6 years ago

http://www.hsapinball.com/HSA_PINBALL/hsa61.html

Brian at HSA is gonna do the work on my Embryon soon as I get around to disassembling the PF and send it to him. the before and after pictures are astounding.

#81 6 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

What was the approximate cost for HSA to do this?

Brian mentioned a stage 2 restoration is roughly about $650 bucks. trouble is the turn around time is 3-6 months. They use the same inserts and restore those too. Though it could be more $ being that Embryon is a low production game, and such a game takes more time to restore properly. Honestly I'm already upside down on the game I dont care. I love it so much. Sentimental value more than anything. I ain't married so I have the extra income to blow!

4 weeks later
#115 6 years ago
Quoted from Stu:

Good News EMBRYON Fans....New CPR Plastics Coming Soon!

SWEET! For a low production game (~2250) this game sure has been receiving a lot of attention lately. The back glass I'd love to see a repro done!

Stu, whos doing the artwork on this one?

#117 6 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

That's because it's a kick ass game...

Yup and im happy to own one!

#123 6 years ago
Quoted from Stu:

LOL, sorry, didn't mean to laugh at your glass, just the way you described it made me chuckle....hope you find one in decent condition....we have new repros coming but no idea of time-frame as I'm still working on the artwork....

AHHH THIS IS GREAT!! My BG is like a 9.5 outta 10 but always scared as hell when I have to take it out for whatever reason to work on the electronics.

1 week later
#126 6 years ago

Also replace the volume pot on the coin door. That fixed my hum and static problem in addition to a total recapping of the board.

4 weeks later
#171 6 years ago

I'm glad my Embryon was taken care of over the years. Yeah it does have some typical wear you see in the game, but it could have been alot worse. Eventually I will have the PF restored.

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2 weeks later
#173 6 years ago
Quoted from EEE:

Does anyone here own an Embryon and a Paragon? I am trying to build up the correct sound board wiring harness for a paragon and could use some assistance.hnks.

Do you need a picture of the connector?

1 week later
#176 6 years ago

BJM, I have the game set to liberal recommended settings. The "Special When Lit" in the outlanes to the left and for the flipsave do not light until you complete EMBRYON to activate Life Support for a 2nd time in a game. The SWL in the center next to the bonus 40 lights until you hit over 400k I believe, and the game knocks for a free game.

#178 6 years ago

Sounds good. I think a video may help better than describing in words. It depends on the settings of the game. I've been meaning to make my settings harder because I'm simply too evil good on this game! I can turn it over 1 million twice in a game if I'm really determined.

2 weeks later
#179 6 years ago

Hey guys, my friend Scott is selling his Embryon on this thread! Hit em up if you are interested!

http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/collection-for-sale-in-connecticut

#189 6 years ago

I agree on the linear flippers. I rebuilt mine from the ground up from a kit from actionpinball. they play great and got some balls during gameplay.

#191 6 years ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

I find the linear flippers are good except with one annoying difference. If I hold the flipper up and the ball lands on it, it pushes the flipper down just a little and the high resistance part of the coil is briefly shorted by the EOS and the flipper sort of re-fires.

The infamous Bally flipper bounce!!! The kit from actionpinball has magnetic coil stops and stronger return springs to prevent this. This is the main reason why people change out the linear flippers because of this mechanical flaw. With the right parts and adjustment they will work just as well as old style flippers.

1 week later
#206 6 years ago

MN-Flipper, The drop targets multiple scoring can be a shorted diode, go and test those. If the diodes are good, and connectors are fine, you may be looking at a bad PIA chip at U10 of the MPU, and maybe even U11 for the stuck pop bumper. Pop bumpers turns on when you hit the captive center ball.

Check your connectors, make sure they are good. If a pop bumper is stuck on, then one of the driver board transistors has locked on. Will need to test, remove, and replace it. Remove all the connectors from the rectifier board in the cab. Start testing the fuses and the test points to see what voltages you are getting. If those are good then check the solenoid driver board.

#212 6 years ago
Quoted from scampcamp:

I sure wouldn't mind having this original Embryon art hanging by my Embryon pin.
ebay.com link » Original Factory Artwork For Ballys 1982 Embryon Pinball Machine

I call Shenanigans on that. Where's the COA? How do any know its not a silk screened copy? The price hes asking for is ridiculous.

3 weeks later
#217 5 years ago

Started disassembling my Embryon PF today to be restored by HSA Pinball. Pics AND video to follow! The main PF area was easy to remove all the parts. The underside of the PF is a REAL TEDIOUS job! There are staples that hold the bare ground wire to all the under PF lights (GI and CPU) where you need to remove them. I'm stripping all the parts to where its only the bare PF wood panel to be sent out to Arkansas. See the link below of brian's last restoration! Can't wait to see mine done!

http://www.hsapinball.com/HSA_PINBALL/hsa61.html

#220 5 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

Uhh, that's NOT ground as you would expect.. That is the power side.

I stand corrected, yes you are right.

Quoted from mof:

I may want to go this route next year, let us know how it turns out.
-mof

I got some pictures I'll post later today and a youtube video describing my process. The upside of the PF was easy, took me about 1.5hrs to fully disassemble & categorize the parts so I don't get lost during reassembly.

I'm currently just shy of 4.5hrs on the underside of the PF, that process is going VERY SLOW!!! What's slowing me down are those damn staples. I got this much time into the underside and only about 55% of the way done. That's unbolting everything, yank the staples, then slide the entire wiring mess off the PF using the old display glass so everything stays in its general position in order slide it back onto the restored PF. I'm doing this all on the floor and that's where it will stay safe and out of the way for me.

#221 5 years ago

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#222 5 years ago

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#225 5 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

7 Digit conversion is a must on this machine I converted to 7 digits on the last one i built it was a big improvement.

Thought of doing it too. Am I correct in stating that the stock ROM wasn't designed to operate with 7 digits, so the 7 digit display has a mod done to it where it lops off the first digit and moves over the whole score to appear its 7 digits? Be curious what is involved to convert over the machine or if its an easy swap out.

I still have 2 out of 4 that are the original fluorescent displays, the rest are newer Stern LEDS.

#229 5 years ago

Thanks for the background info. I think for right now I'll keep everything original. From a game restoration POV it makes more sense to me. Plus as a kid when I had this game (not the machine I'm restoring now) it was bare bones stock HUO.

Once the PF is being restored, I plan on buying the Embryon stencils to touch up the cabinet. My next challenge is to figure out which spray paint to use and how to color match it to the original. Some minor chipping that can be fixed with wood filler. My BG is a 9.5 out of 10.

Can't wait till its finished. I'll likely be upside down on the machine itself once its all done, but if I ever sold it I know I can ask top dollar for it since it will be all original and a hell of a looker.

#231 5 years ago

Yeah the game I was told was in an arcade for about 5-6 years and then sold to a private owner till I bought it in 2012. It was kept in an old car dealership, but no climate control. Its no wonder the PF saw so much degradation. I agree the restored cleared PF's gain higher selling prices. Yeah it wont be 'original' but given its current state it needs restoration. Given how this game is a low production model it makes it desirable by collectors. Top of that its a fun game for a wide body. My folks had the same game HUO from a relative and back in 2003 they sold that for $2600 PLUS crating to ship it down to south Carolina from CT. So many Embryons as of late have come out of the woodwork up for sale. I think its because the newer games are so damn overpriced that the older B & C rated titles are selling more because no one can afford a new one.

This hobby is highly enjoyable, but damn expensive. Then again every man needs to have an expensive hobby for the wife to shake her head at.

#234 5 years ago

6.5 hours or so since I started disassembling the PF down to the plywood...here is what we got! i took my time and cataloged all the parts by area. I used the old glass to slide all the hardware from the PF to it, and then wrapped it in a moving blanket resting it on top of the machine till I get the PF back. Lord help me it wont take that long to reassemble!

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#237 5 years ago

Really? Well 6.5 hrs on the underside of the PF and about 1.5 hrs on the top side. I will certainly start a separate thread once I get the PF back. The artwork is very complex and HSA told me though it will be a bit longer to restore because of that. I got nothing but time on the project.

#238 5 years ago

All packed up! Sending out tomorrow! starting a separate thread detailing the restoration of the upper/lower cabinet repainting/repair and reassembly of the PF once restored by HSA! I won't be writing too much on there, I'll be doing youtube videos and some pics detailing the progress.

packaged playfield.jpg

#245 5 years ago

I wonder how many of the 2250 of the games have survived since 1980-1981. Cannot be too many.

#247 5 years ago
Quoted from embryon:

About 5 in Australia

I'm sure the price of the game is inflated because of that down there. I've a few guys from Australia looking for one only to find the continent itself has a limited number of them.

4 weeks later
#255 5 years ago

Are you changing out the three 555 lights with LED's? This shouldn't be a problem, but you need the Alltech lamp driver board, or a 500 ohm resistor with the OEM LDB.

However, if you change out the larger bright lights with LEDs, there is not enough load on the aux lamp board below to activate. You would need to solder a 500 ohm resistor between the lamp socket terminals on those to have the circuitry "see" a load to operate the LEDs.

2 weeks later
#265 5 years ago

Everyone, Brian at HSA has completed my PF. I invite everyone to please help me look over the before and after pictures. Just spent 20 minutes going through them and so far I cannot find any major inaccuracies of the artwork. So far I am VERY IMPRESSED!!!!!!

http://www.hsapinball.com/HSA_PINBALL/hsa92214embryon.html

#268 5 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

What was the cost on this job?

I'd prefer not to share publically, but considering the damage, the work needed to repair, and the results I think the cost was fair. Its honestly not an easy PF to restore because of the detail.

#269 5 years ago
Quoted from BJM-Maxx:

Very nice results. Especially since they say they are not using any overlays, I guess they just recreate the missing artwork.

That is correct, graphic artists literally hand paint the missing artwork. My biggest fear was where the missing artwork down the bare wood was that when the artist recreated from scratch, be it another PF without that area worn, or from memory, the risk was that the artist may not exactly get it right. This is why I need a few sets of eyes on the photos. To me its a night and day difference.

I'm taking my time looking them over, so far so good!

#276 5 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

yeah embryon is notorious for registration misalignment on the inserts but just painting overly thick circles around the inserts isnt very professional or look that good the registration can be corrected easy enough during a PF restoration by correcting the art around the insert esp on this machine. all the inserts should have been removed and reglued to begin with before any touchups were even done, the circles around the inserts arent even round you can see the blotchy brushed boarders etc.

I agree, the alignment issue was a pre-existing flaw in the artwork. I dont mind the thicker lines around the inserts. Brian told me that all the inserts were removed, repainted, and re-glued back in. I just paid for the PF, I should have it in a few days back here in CT.

Now the next step in the restoration after I reassemble the damn thing is to repaint/touch up the cabinet. I still need some miscellaneous stuff, a new flipper frame since one of the screw holes is stripped, and of course all new pinballs. Dont want the old corroded ones marking up this restore job!

Despite the PF condition before the restore I've seen MUCH worse Embryon PF's out there. If I did not get the restoration done I'm positive I could have sold the machine for about $1500-1600 no problem. My parents had a HUO Embryon back in 1996 and sold in 2003. That machine was flawless to say the least from an artwork perspective. It was never in a bar or arcade, family relative bought it new back in '81.

I have no intention of selling this game. From the history I mentioned above as you might imagine being a young kid circa 1996 having a pinball machine leaves its mark as part of my childhood. Now that I have one in my adult life thats just as nice I think is what its all about.

Now if I can be lucky enough to be in a position to find a 1960 Seeburg AQ-160 Jukebox fully restored...that would complete the collection nicely. Same story, folks had one when I was a kid, grew up on the 40-70's music at a young age. All about preserving those good memories!

seeburg t160.jpg

1 week later
#279 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinwiz1985:

» YouTube video
Spending 1.5hrs looking over this PF WOW, I am impressed!!!
So I wont be immediately start reassembling the PF just yet as I have a few other priority projects going on.
Since its fully apart still I DO have an 8.5 by 11 inch flatbed scanner that I could use to create high pixel density picture files for the people who want to create waterslide decals. I figure i wont be getting around to the reassembly for at least another week. So now would be the time to put your request in or forever hold your peace.
I can confidently say now that I've laid my own eyes on the PF and not just pictures, I'm thorughly satisfied with the restoration job!!

1 month later
#291 5 years ago

Mine is all reassembled, working 100%, and PF is fully restored!!!

All thats left to do now is repaint/repair the cabinet. Ordering the stencils tomorrow!

HSA restored Embryon PF.

#293 5 years ago
Quoted from gabegabegabe:

absolutely beautiful!
What did you do about the small nails that hold the ball guides to the wooden rails? I think they are called escutcheon nails. My game is missing a bunch, and the previous owner did a real hack job by taking a long nail and bending it over. I bought some, but the head is way too small.

I never took them off. I carefully pried up the wooden rails from their long staples, and left the guides in place. When I reattached them I used the same size staples and reattached.

What you are looking at is about 15 man hours to dissasemble and reassemble the PF down to bare wood and back. Did this over a period of two months between the day job. Some say im a speed demon, when in fact I was super OCD about every part

#294 5 years ago
Quoted from scampcamp:

bump.... thanks for Embryon LED ideas...

I will probably sometime in the future make this modification. I think I will just do the CPU lights and leave the GI incandescent. One thing with LEDs is that you need to swap out the lamp driver boards for the Altek ones. The stock lamp driver boards at least the transistors employed on them require a certain amount of resistance to turn on fully. You could solder a 500 ohm resistor on each of the LED light sockets so the stock board will work but I would rather have the advantage of less amperage draw on the power supply with the correct Altek board.

Once I am done repainting repairing my cabinet I will tackle this. I will make a list of how many colored LEDs are needed. Of course if anyone else has already done this please feel free to share it will save all of us planning to do this upgrade much time

#295 5 years ago

Bally Embryon Playfield Restoration & Reassembly:

#298 5 years ago
Quoted from 80spit:

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You did a lot of work! You unsoldered all of the CPU lights underneath. I did not do that. I was too scared that I would not resolder the wires correctly.

Best of luck!

#306 5 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

You realise the altek board has just as much or more amperage draw than the resistor mod right? on the altek board they have added a 470 Ohm shunt to every output pin doing the same thing as adding a resistor to the affected sockets.

Yes with the Alltek board there is no need to add resistors to each light socket. This only needs to be done with the OEM board with LEDs.

3 months later
#320 5 years ago
Quoted from Stu:

Ok guys ( and gals )......We are now ready to announce that we have released our new Embryon Plastics.....

Stu, this is amazing news!!! Just ordered my CPR plastics. Grabbing them while they are in stock now. Can't imagine you will have too many in stock. I mean c'mon, only 2250 of these games were ever made, how many could have possibly survived since 1981?

Can't wait to check them out!!!

#323 5 years ago

Haven't received mine yet. Placed the order Wednesday. Hopefully see it monday or tuesday. Unfortunately CPR has a good catalog website but a non existant full functional ecommerce site with shop cart, checkout, and inventory awareness engine in the background. I would hope id get a UPS tracking# to my paypal email once it ships.

#325 5 years ago
Quoted from Hellfire:

Typicly Ups tracking works on north american shipments but alot of carriers dont have very good tracking info on international shipments that go overseas. Many seem to end up in limbo once they go overseas unless you pay for a premium shipping method.

I ama logistics manager by day, supply chain is my expertise of 10 years. Yes international you lose visibility due to the multiple transfer points between drayage, container, steamship lines, back to port, and out for delivery by truck. Premium ship methods like air cargo is easy, and expensive. Truck to air, air lands, onto truck, out to you.

#326 5 years ago

EDIT: Is CPR located in Novia Scotia Canada? I thought they were out of CA?? I should see it Monday once it arrives to the Watertown delivery terminal, then out to my house. Just weird it would be coming from there unless CPR is drop shipping from a 3rd party vendor who has the plastics in stock.

Plattsburgh, NY, United States 03/13/2015 2:18 P.M. Import Scan
03/13/2015 11:45 A.M. Arrival Scan
Lachine, QC, Canada 03/13/2015 7:48 A.M. Departure Scan
Lachine, QC, Canada 03/12/2015 7:56 P.M. Export Scan
03/12/2015 1:54 P.M. Arrival Scan
Dieppe, NB, Canada 03/12/2015 3:00 A.M. Departure Scan
Dieppe, NB, Canada 03/11/2015 11:30 P.M. Arrival Scan
Dartmouth, NS, Canada 03/11/2015 8:40 P.M. Departure Scan
03/11/2015 7:35 P.M. Origin Scan
Canada 03/11/2015 5:23 P.M. Order Processed: Ready for UPS

#329 5 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

Just became a member of the club!

Welcome! Very cool looking with the LEDs, do you have the stock lamp driver board still or did you swap for the Alltek board?

I want LED's eventually myself, maybe leave the GI's incandescent. The cost for good non ghosting LEDs though is steep. Still can't deny how bad ass it looks! Congrats!

6 months later
#373 4 years ago
Quoted from embryon:

Thanks, yes this is a decal I got made up.

Any chance I could buy a copy of that decal from you?

1 month later
#391 4 years ago
Quoted from Hi-Fi:

Who designed Embryon?

Tony Ramunni designed the artwork. Cant remember who designed the game itself.

9 months later
#416 3 years ago
Quoted from mof:

No -- flipper return frames -- just next to each flipper.

Good stuff! I have the exact problem you describe. No more mushrooming on the playfield however!

2 years later
#488 11 months ago

Hey its a been a bit since posting. Glad to see Embryon is still a highly sought after game. If CPR does not make a repro playfield, it keeps the worth of the original 2250 Embryons manufactured higher than if there was one. Im sure there will be one soon, just a question of when. I mean they already did the plastics.

To answer another persons question about cab paint. I havent done mine yet, but I have the stencils to respray it. The light blue, grey, and black colors will likley need some adjustment over primary to match properly.

I do plan on doing touchup on my embryon cabinet and not a full restore like I did the playfield. I get such enjoyment from the restored OEM field. Grateful to have found it. Took me a better part of 10 years to be in a position to find a decent machine and about 1.5 years of time piecemeal after work to restore it.

My parents bought the same game from my uncle in Maine who bought it for HUO. Enjoyed it for years. They sold it when I was a kid after they divorced. Once I found mine it was like reclaiming a part of my childhood. This one is staying in my collection indefinitely for sure come hell or high water.

4 months later
#523 6 months ago
Quoted from tatman9999:

Here is my playfield[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

That truly is a really nice original playfield. It was never restored right? Mine looks like that now, but only after a professional restore job from HSA Pinball (now retired but business under new ownership) to make it look new again.

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