(Topic ID: 205083)

Embryon lights up with sound, can't get game to start.

By barryabrams

6 years ago


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#1 6 years ago

This is the first pinball machine I've worked on, so please excuse any dumb questions or misused jargon.

Our office has inherited an Embryon machine as non-working. After drilling out the lock in the head, I found that none of the harness wasn't hooked up, but everything seemed complete. After hooking up all the connectors to where I think they should go, I plugged the machine in and turned it on. It lit up and started making sounds, including the spoken word sound effects.

One of two noises chime when a coin is entered, but we can't seem to start a game. Nothing seems to happen when pressing the start button on the coin door. The credits say that there are 10 credits and adding more quarters doesn't increment the number.

When running the self-tests, a few light bulbs are burnt out, but the majority of them are lighting up.

The solenoid self-test triggers 1 of the solenoids every 15 seconds or so. I have a feeling that more of them should be triggering, but I don't know if I need to do something during the self-test. Perhaps the solenoids aren't working, which is causing the game not to work?

#2 6 years ago

Check that the tilt bob and ball as well as the slam tilt on the bottom of the playfield are all open.

Also, I am not sure that it would be the cause, but there should be two balls in the trough.

#3 6 years ago

Could be something simple like the start button is not hooked up. Can you put the game in switch test mode? If so pressing the start button should flash it's corresponding number on the display.

EEE is correct, if this is a multi-ball game it needs to have all the balls in the outhole trough before it will start.

Since you have missing solenoids and some switches check connectors again. Make sure you didn't miss any.

#4 6 years ago

I checked the fuse under the playfield and it was blown. When I replaced it, about 1/2 of the solenoids started firing during the self-test. The main 2 flippers don't, but the one of the side does. Also, the machine started smelling electrical. Perhaps a few of the solenoids are stuck and making it smell?

There are 2 balls in the trough. I will try to see if the start button is hooked up.

#5 6 years ago
Quoted from barryabrams:

I checked the fuse under the playfield and it was blown. When I replaced it, about 1/2 of the solenoids started firing during the self-test. The main 2 flippers don't, but the one of the side does. Also, the machine started smelling electrical. Perhaps a few of the solenoids are stuck and making it smell?
There are 2 balls in the trough. I will try to see if the start button is hooked up.

Make sure the fuse you replaced is a 1 amp slow blow fuse. With the upper head door open (remove back glass) start the game. I assume you have 7 flashes on the light on the MPU board (top left) since you're getting sounds. Just before the 7th flash you should hear a click from the flipper relay (top right board). If all that happens, you should do a switch test. Press the red button inside the coin door 5 times. Faulty switches show in the credit display. The manual will show what switches are shown or it's available online. I suspect it's a ball trough issue. Since it has multiball 2 balls must show before it will start. Place one in the captive ball saucer and one in the trough. During start it should kick the one out of the saucer. If not, your probably looking at wiring connector issues to start. There are also 3 tilt switches, the plumb bob inside the cabinet to the left, the rolling ball just above it and a slam switch under the playfield (front). Make sure all switches are open.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

Could be something simple like the start button is not hooked up. Can you put the game in switch test mode? If so pressing the start button should flash it's corresponding number on the display.
EEE is correct, if this is a multi-ball game it needs to have all the balls in the outhole trough before it will start.
.

Embryon will start with one ball in the trough.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

Make sure the fuse you replaced is a 1 amp slow blow fuse. With the upper head door open (remove back glass) start the game. I assume you have 7 flashes on the light on the MPU board (top left) since you're getting sounds. Just before the 7th flash you should hear a click from the flipper relay (top right board). If all that happens, you should do a switch test. Press the red button inside the coin door 5 times. Faulty switches show in the credit display. The manual will show what switches are shown or it's available online. I suspect it's a ball trough issue. Since it has multiball 2 balls must show before it will start. Place one in the captive ball saucer and one in the trough. During start it should kick the one out of the saucer. If not, your probably looking at wiring connector issues to start. There are also 3 tilt switches, the plumb bob inside the cabinet to the left, the rolling ball just above it and a slam switch under the playfield (front). Make sure all switches are open.

Ok, I replaced the 5 amp regular fuse under the playfield with a 2 amp slow blow fuse I got, and it blew within 10 seconds of turning the machine on. I put the 5 amp fuse back in it. Edit: The original fuse I took out of the playfield was a 5 amp / 250V, that that's what I looked for at the hardware store. I'm seeing in the manual it should be a 1 amp fuse, so a previous owner must have been troubleshooting something.

When I turn the machine on, I see 7 flashes of the led, though the first one is shorter than the rest. I don't know if that matters.

I can do the light test, the display test, the solenoid test (with about 1/2 of the solenoids triggering) and the sound test, but I don't think the switch test is working. No matter what switches I trigger manually, nothing displays on the displays during this self test. Maybe all the switches aren't being detected? I can't get the flippers to work either. The solenoid that's stuck on is #12, the one labeled "Saucer" in the manual.

#8 6 years ago

The game is booting up otherwise you could not put in coins and get it in self test.
Since the playfield fuse is blowing you have a bad coil and probably a shorted bad transistor.
Before you do anything pick up an handful of 1A slow blow fuses because you are probably going to go through them as you trouble-shoot.
Look at all the coils carefully. At least one is going to be smoked and probably inoperable. Once you replace the bad coil I'm guessing you are going to find it locks up right away when the game starts and will need to repair the solenoid driver board.
Narrow it down to the coil that's blowing the fuse and go from there.

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

The game is booting up otherwise you could not put in coins and get it in self test.
Since the playfield fuse is blowing you have a bad coil and probably a shorted bad transistor.
Before you do anything pick up an handful of 1A slow blow fuses because you are probably going to go through them as you trouble-shoot.
Look at all the coils carefully. At least one is going to be smoked and probably inoperable. Once you replace the bad coil I'm guessing you are going to find it locks up right away when the game starts and will need to repair the solenoid driver board.
Narrow it down to the coil that's blowing the fuse and go from there.

Agreed. You have multiple issues. The playfield solenoids are daisy chained so everyone upstream from the faulty one is not working. The saucer solenoid may have damaged the solenoid driver board. Options are repairing or replacing it. See link:
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm#cap

Alltek makes a replacement board that works well.

http://www.allteksystems.com/products-mpu-replacements.html#mpu

1 week later
#10 6 years ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

Agreed. You have multiple issues. The playfield solenoids are daisy chained so everyone upstream from the faulty one is not working. The saucer solenoid may have damaged the solenoid driver board. Options are repairing or replacing it. See link:
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm#cap
Alltek makes a replacement board that works well.
http://www.allteksystems.com/products-mpu-replacements.html#mpu

Thanks for the info.

I did replace the solenoid that seems to be the culprit and it's doing the same thing, so I'll look at the solenoid board.

If I end up getting that altek board, do I need to modify the harness, or is it plug and play?

2 weeks later
#11 6 years ago

I've replaced the Solenoid driver board with the alltek one, and most if not all solenoids are triggering. The last one (Q19) doesn't, but I don't know if this machine even has a Q19. The green LED on the solenoid board for Q19 is solidly on during the attract mode. I'm no longer getting the burning smell or anything, and the fuse isn't popping. I talked to Dave, the guy from alltek, and he gave me a few things to look at.

I'm having issues with the flippers though, and still can't start a game. During the self-test if I hold down the left button, the Left flipper will trigger when the relay flashes on. Though, if I do the same thing with the right flipper, nothing happens. I checked voltages on the soldered parts of the solenoid and I get 0, even during the self-test when the relay trips on, though I may not be reading those correctly. I'm looking for DC current. I get 43v on the solenoid driver board's test point. With the power off, if I check continuity, all of the 3 flipper's 3 solder points beep no matter which ones I try, so perhaps there is a short. Or, maybe it's not... I don't know what it's supposed to do.

#12 6 years ago

There is no Q19.
The flipper relay is #14 you should here a click from the back box (although I have no experience with the Altec board and weather it makes an audible click sound when the relay is tested.) If the left flipper flips the relay is probably working as the test pulls the relay for only a portion of a second. The right flipper should work at the same time if you re holding in the button. If it doesn't check the EOS switch located on it.

Flipper problems are easier to diagnose once the game is running so for now lets look at why you cannot start a game...
You say there are credits and you can insert coins. So the game should start when you press the credit button. At the same time you say none of the switches appear to be working?? But the coin switches do because it makes noise when you drop a coin through.

Couple things to test here. Start with J2 on the MPU board. A bad connection here would mess up the playfield switches. Check the solder connections to the connector as over time they open up and need to be reflowed. If this game has been sitting for a while you could have battery damage. Look at the condition of the battery on the bottom of the board. Has it leaked and damaged the board?
Finally check U10. That chip controls the switches. You can carefully swap U10 and 11. U11 is coils, sounds, and displays which work. U10 is switches wich arn't (at least the playfield switches arn't) working if you swap the two chips it might tell us something.

#13 6 years ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

There is no Q19.
Finally check U10. That chip controls the switches. You can carefully swap U10 and 11. U11 is coils, sounds, and displays which work. U10 is switches wich arn't (at least the playfield switches arn't) working if you swap the two chips it might tell us something.

I switched the U10 and U11, and there isn't a change.

I'm not sure my earlier theory of "none of the switches work" is correct anymore. The coin switches work, as does the left flipper button, and the self test button works. Now that more of the coils work, tapping a ball against the rubber is triggering that solenoid. I think I just can't get it to start a game.

In the self-tests, I can get through the lights, score displays, solenoids, and sound effects, but whatever the next one doesn't seem to work. The score displays seem to just pick a random number and count up every second or so.

I took the MPU off and inspected it. There actually isn't a battery. There's a tiny bit of corrosion on the back, but it doesn't seem to affect the contacts at all. Will these machines operate correctly without a battery? I've attached a couple photos.

I think the issue with the flippers might be with the leaf switch on the button itself. I can't seem to get my multimeter to beep when it's pressed. It looks like the contact points might be rusted over.

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#14 6 years ago

Also, I should note that when the left flipper hits the end of stroke switch, there's a bright spark. I noticed this when I turned the machine on with the playfield up. I don't know if this is normal.

#15 6 years ago

Update: I was able to get the game to play. I held down the start switch continuously for like 30 seconds, and a couple solenoids fired, and the 8-digit display indicated that the first player was playing. It kicked a ball out and I was able to play with a single flipper. One of the popbumpers fired every second or so (which I figured was due to a closed switch, which it was). I think a bunch of the switches needed to be cleaned. I am getting continuity on the start switch when it's closed though, so maybe something further down the line is not registering switch presses?

#16 6 years ago

I found that I could repeatedly get the game to start playing if I make sure there's a full 10 credits in the machine, then press the start button and trip the leads between the diode/resistor (I can't remember which it is) on the start button. It'll only start if there are 2 balls under the apron (sorry I don't know the names of the parts), otherwise, it'll make the same sound as when you tilt and reset the machine. I'm going to look in the manual for the various dip switches to see if it's set strangely as far as credits/play go.

I'm confused about something: Since there's just the one start button, how do you tell the machine it's a 1 vs 2/3/4 player game? I'm just not used to this type of machine.

#17 6 years ago

Sounds like the leaf switch for the start button is either dirty or worn out. You can clean the contacts on the switch using a piece of paper or business card. Place it between the contacts, push the contacts together and slide it between them a few times. If still no joy, replace the leaf switch.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Sounds like the leaf switch for the start button is either dirty or worn out. You can clean the contacts on the switch using a piece of paper or business card. Place it between the contacts, push the contacts together and slide it between them a few times. If still no joy, replace the leaf switch.

Any idea what the part number is on that switch? I've tried the card trick, but it didn't seem to help.

#19 6 years ago

I think the part number your looking for is ASW-A10-46. It may be hard to find though. If anything, a different switch can be substituted there, just make sure it has gold contacts (not the beefier tungsten contacts for flippers)... Also, i know sometimes a slam tilt switch (such as the one on back of the coin door) can be repurposed for other switches as long as the length is correct...

1 week later
#20 6 years ago

I replaced the credit/start switch and I'm still seeing the same symptoms. The switch won't trigger anything when closed, but if i brush one probe of my multimeter on the diode side of the switch, it will regardless if the switch is closed or not. Maybe there's a short somewhere down the line?

Edit: pushing the non-diode contact of the button so that it's almost touching the inside of the coin door panel will trigger the button.

#21 6 years ago

is the diode wired in the right direction?

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

is the diode wired in the right direction?

Yes. I believe so. It comes in through A4J3-2 (a red wire) which is going through the diode, and the switch goes out on A4JE-14, which is a blue wire. The painted tip of the diode is going with the circuit.

By pushing the contact against the coin door, it will switch the player, but the game won't start. I can switch back and forth between players by pushing it, but no game will ever start.

edit: I found that shorting either contact against the inside of coindoor triggers the game to go into player select mode.

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#23 6 years ago

If you put the game in switch test mode (with all balls removed and all targets up), is the display flashing 0 indicating no stuck switches? If so when you press the credit button what number flashes (if any). Really sounds like a mechanical problem with the switch.

Oh BTW, there should be a piece of paper built into the switch so there is no physical contact of the grounded metal door against the switch contacts.

#24 6 years ago
Quoted from BigAl56:

If you put the game in switch test mode (with all balls removed and all targets up), is the display flashing 0 indicating no stuck switches? If so when you press the credit button what number flashes (if any). Really sounds like a mechanical problem with the switch.
Oh BTW, there should be a piece of paper built into the switch so there is no physical contact of the grounded metal door against the switch contacts.

In switch test mode, it will flash 0 regardless if I trigger the credit button or not. I can confirm that there's paper between contact and the door. When I'm talking about pushing the contact against the coin door, I'm talking about the tab that the wire is soldered to. Perhaps the connector needs to be repinned? I'm getting continuity on the witch when I push the button, and also I'm getting continuity between the switch leads and the back of the PCB where they connect to.

#25 6 years ago

You need to carefully examine the mechanics of the leaves of the switch to insure when you press the credit button a switch closure occurs that connects the strobe to the return with a diode in series. The grounded metal door button must be insulated from the connections by a piece of paper or newer switches use a plastic pin built into the switch leaves.

If all else fails replace the switch. The contacts are supposed to be gold plated (*micro plated so don't strip out your switches for the local 'cash for gold' franchise) for continuity and can be easily damaged by improper cleaning or the switch may have been replaced by an older unplated model.

3 weeks later
#26 6 years ago

I've still not had any luck getting past this point. I've replaced the leaf switches twice now and it's doing the same thing.

I'm in Champaign, IL. Is their a board in pinside I can post something to get local-ish help?

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