(Topic ID: 140425)

Embryon issue?

By Hazoff

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 36 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by Hazoff
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 7 years ago

Turned it on today and the flippers dp not work at all, everything else is functional and the fuses look fine,any advice is helpful, thanks

#2 7 years ago

You can't check a fuse by looking at them.
Take them out one by one with the power off and check them with a meter.

#3 7 years ago

Turn the game off. Switch it back on and quickly hold the flipper buttons in. At about the count of 6, you should hear a CLICK from the backbox, indicating the flipper enable relay fired. Do you get that click?

#4 7 years ago
Quoted from 0geist0:

You can't check a fuse by looking at them.
Take them out one by one with the power off and check them with a meter.

I know but I wasn't sure if there is a dedicated fuse for the flippers themselves, all the other coils fire so just the flippers? Your right ofcourse, I should and will check them.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Turn the game off. Switch it back on and quickly hold the flipper buttons in. At about the count of 6, you should hear a CLICK from the backbox, indicating the flipper enable relay fired. Do you get that click?

I do not hear a click but the small flipper does pulse quickly and its the only one working, I thought they were all out but it does work when activated.

#6 7 years ago

IIRC, the small flipper is transistor controlled like any other playfield solenoid and that pulse is normal (both of mine did it).

Check/rebuild J4 on MPU and J3 and J4 on SDB. Check for burnt traces leading to and from the flipper enable relay on the backside of that board. Check for cracked solder joints on the backside of the board where the relay solders in.

#7 7 years ago

Another thing I noticed is that voice is at a higher pitch than normal, What the hell?

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Another thing I noticed is that voice is at a higher pitch than normal, What the hell?

Always check the EASY things first, as many people get ahead of themselves.

After the fuses, check and reseat ALL connections in the backbox.
Early Bally machines of this age can be effected by surface corrosion to the pins and the connector themselves especially if you never upgraded them from the originals.
As another mentioned, cold solder joints are also VERY COMMON, they may need reflowed.
Check the flipper solenoids as well UNDER the playfield, you may have a pawl leaf switch issue that could have caused a "lock on" and a fuse popping, due to "hold" power being left on too long.

You just noted another problem with the sound board with the high pitch (sometimes a "squeel"), which happens due to these causes (connection seating), but sometimes its related to other problems specifically related to component mounted circuit boards, but more later.

Golden rule: If you smell smoke, see burnt traces, or stop popping fuses immediately, TURN IT OFF!

#9 7 years ago

I think its in the connector J2 on the driver board, after some fooling with that connector the flippers started to work. I need to rebuild them thats for sure, still have to figure out the high pitched speech. Any thoughts?

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

still have to figure out the high pitched speech. Any thoughts?

There are adjustment pots on the sound card that you can try adjusting.

#11 7 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

IIRC, the small flipper is transistor controlled like any other playfield solenoid and that pulse is normal (both of mine did it).
Check/rebuild J4 on MPU and J3 and J4 on SDB. Check for burnt traces leading to and from the flipper enable relay on the backside of that board. Check for cracked solder joints on the backside of the board where the relay solders in.

General info FWIW.... all non decoded solenoids will give a brief pulse during the associated PIA's power on self test. This includes the flipper relay and any solenoids that may be enabled for longer than a brief one shot. Knowing that you can use it as a quick visual queue as to where to start at.

#12 7 years ago

Flippers are working now, just the connector as indicated above but the speech sounds like one of the chipmunks are saying it, has not affected any other sounds, the 2 pots on the S and T board adjust volume not pitch, unless I'm missing something, going to redo the caps and see if thats works, looks like everything in this pin is original so I'm just get started. Today I noticed the flasher's under the birth canal or whatever that thing is in the center do not function. Its going to be a fun but tedious restoration. Love the pin and happy to finally own one. Thanks guys.

#13 7 years ago
Quoted from KenH:

There are adjustment pots on the sound card that you can try adjusting.

"Carefully" crank the potentiometer back and forth a few times, sometimes things get a little "sticky" over time.
Settle it out, test on a reset on in the sound test menu.

#14 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Flippers are working now, just the connector as indicated above but the speech sounds like one of the chipmunks are saying it, has not affected any other sounds, the 2 pots on the S and T board adjust volume not pitch, unless I'm missing something, going to redo the caps and see if thats works, looks like everything in this pin is original so I'm just get started. Today I noticed the flasher's under the birth canal or whatever that thing is in the center do not function. Its going to be a fun but tedious restoration. Love the pin and happy to finally own one. Thanks guys.

I find lots of TMS5200 speech chips end up sounding like chipmunks. Specially on the one s where the IC legs corrode out big time... I wonder if that gets up inside the IC package and damages something.... changes resistance/capacitance somewhere.

#15 7 years ago

I was thinking maybe the crystal...

#16 7 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

I was thinking maybe the crystal...

Crystal is for the CPU clock. Speech clock is set by a resistor/cap (r9 i think). You can change the resistor value and get some different speed effect, but it doesnt always get you the results you want.

#17 7 years ago

I made another thread for this but figured I'd post it here too, the inserts lights are behaving very strange, its like some are in the wrong spots heres a video, the pin has an Alltek MPU board and an Alltek LED driver board and I know the MPU board is set to the correct dip switches but something is fucked.

#18 7 years ago

It's possible you may have a feedback electrical short coming from the play field to the CPU, this can cause all sorts of havoc with both the lamp and switch matrix. You need to start testing voltages

#19 7 years ago

Make sure the fish paper insulator is between the start button and switch blade.

#20 7 years ago

Heres a few pics of the boards just in case anything is obvious, not sure why the solenoid board has that wire cominf from the cap? appreciate the advice guys.

DSC02128.jpg
DSC02129.jpg
DSC02130.jpg

#21 7 years ago

For the first time today while playing the flippers all stopped working and I noticed the red light for over voltage triggered on the Alltek MPU board, I checked the fuses and fiddled a little with the connectors and it worked fine again but now sometimes upon even turning on the game the red light comes on, I think all this might be in the Solenoid driver board and as I was not the one who installed the MPU and after reading the instructions maybe the previous owner by not checking for proper voltage before installing the MPU board has damaged something. God damn

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Heres a few pics of the boards just in case anything is obvious, not sure why the solenoid board has that wire cominf from the cap?

It is a ground modification, but done in a very lazy/sloppy way.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-quick-bally-driver-board-repair-bulletproofing

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

For the first time today while playing the flippers all stopped working and I noticed the red light for over voltage triggered on the Alltek MPU board, I checked the fuses and fiddled a little with the connectors and it worked fine again but now sometimes upon even turning on the game the red light comes on, I think all this might be in the Solenoid driver board and as I was not the one who installed the MPU and after reading the instructions maybe the previous owner by not checking for proper voltage before installing the MPU board has damaged something. God damn

Start at the rectifier board in the bottom. Check those test points. The solenoid board then regulates some of the rectifier board voltages. If you had a cheap scope you could measure the ripple on the 5V. You could also use the AC setting on your volt meter to see if that large cap is doing its job, its been replace at some point. The high voltage one looks original.

#24 7 years ago

I'm curious as to why the manual shows a different rectifier board, the one in Embryon has 6 fuses and the one in the manual is the same one thats in my FB 2 with 5 fuses? Probably nothing or maybe they are interchangable? I have no clue. I will check the test points and caps tonight, Thanks

#25 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

I'm curious as to why the manual shows a different rectifier board

Like your driver board, is it another Stern part rather than a Bally?

#26 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Like your driver board, is it another Stern part rather than a Bally?

That might be more of a hack than a mod. I would bet on that the male/female ground return pin burned up and that is how they fixed it instead of dealing with the connector itself.

#27 7 years ago

Its a Bally board. Maybe a later version or earlier.

#28 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Its a Bally board. Maybe a later version or earlier.

The line in fuse is not drawn near the rest of the fuses on the rectifier schematic. it is off to the left and mislabeled as F1 (should be f6)

#29 7 years ago

Yeah but even the value of the fuses are different than what is shown in the manual and in FB 2.

manual and FB 2

F2 3/4 amp
F3 4 amp
F4 5 amp
F1 and F5 20 amp

The board currently in Embryon is

F1 20 amp
F2 3/4 amp
F3 un reg 4 amp
F4 5 amp
F5 15 amp
F6 15 amp

The board reads 1983 Bally Midway

#30 7 years ago

Its the wrong board, Embryon was made in 1980. Could this be the route of many problems?

#31 7 years ago

I always repin all those female connectors. It's a sucky job, but if you want those old Bally games to be totally bulletproof, it has to be done.

Next time the overvoltage light comes on, measure the voltage with your meter.

#32 7 years ago

Embryon should have the cabinet rectifier board with square plugs. Not the rectifier board in the head with single line molex 1.56" plugs.

#33 7 years ago

heres the board

DSC02137.jpg

#34 7 years ago

It was a connector on the aux lamp driver board, simple fix. Thanks for the help.

#35 7 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

It was a connector on the aux lamp driver board, simple fix. Thanks for the help.

A considerate thought.

All these problems you reported so far, indicate one thing.
You need to replace and repin ALL you primary female connectors, or you are going to continue to have problems.
Games of this age require this if you want reliability.
Everytime an owner unplugs and replugs a connector, eventually the contacts fail.
You are not solving the problem, just delaying the inevitable.
You cannot troubleshoot a problem with components and voltages in the future, if your connections are bad.
Its going to happen as capacitors dry up, resistors deteriorate, diodes heat burn, etc, etc.

#36 7 years ago

Yes, I agree. I got lucky with my FB 2 in that it was restored and same with the Elektra, not that things aren't going to go on them but the Embryon is in shitty condition, not much choice as they never come up around here, I will slowly bring her back to glory. Thanks again for the help.

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