(Topic ID: 204929)

EM Williams Argosy : Game Over lamps not working

By snyper2099

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

Ball in play and Player up lamps not working:
-->>
So I have had this game for a while and just started to attempt to get it going over the weekend. Using my limited EM repair experience, I have it almost 100% working. The two items that do not currently work are the "player up" lamps and the "ball in play lamps" in the insert panel.

Yes, the lamps and sockets have been checked and they do work.

I feel the need to mention that there was some cut wiring in the lower cabinet that I have done my best to repair.

Again, the game is completing a 5 ball, 4 player game and everything else works properly.

I think I have traced the problem down to a Blue/Yellow wire that shares these two sets of lamps.
I do NOT have a schematic but I do have the manual on ipdb.org
When the game is going through it's start up sequence, I do see a VERY brief flicker of the #1 "ball in play" lamp.

Not certain what wire path to look at now. I do know that the fingers on the ball in play unit AND player up unit are making contact properly, as I cleaned those units/discs and checked their movement/continuity with my meter. Also looked for broken wires for a long while on those units and discovered none.

#2 3 years ago

Forget the wire path for now check the player unit and ball count unit and see if the traces need cleaning/ fingers need slight adjusting.

#3 3 years ago

I cleaned the fingers AND discs on both units and made the common check of moving the fingers slightly and pressing firmly with no change. I'm leaning towards a wiring/switch issue because there is no voltage at those disc nipples/fingers.

I've also cleaned and inspected all the plugs in the head and cabinet for poor connections and have ruled that out as well.

#4 3 years ago

If could possibly
Be your game over latch trip relay as well.

#5 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

If could possibly
Be your game over latch trip relay as well.

Ah, very good. I will check that out this evening and report back.

#6 3 years ago

I can come over and take a look at it if you want, or you can come over and look at my Argosy for reference.

#7 3 years ago

Ok, yes, the game over relay was not adjusted properly and that was the issue with no lamps for ball in play or player up. Thank you CrazyLevi!

So now there is another small issue... now the ball in play and player up lamps are working... However, once any points are made on the playfield (no matter what ball it is) the “ball 3” lamp comes on(along with correct ball lamp) and 3 stays on until a drain, then game goes to next player and when that player scores first point, the “ball in play 3 lamp” stays on for the rest of that player’s ball. I suspect a wire or switch is wrong somewhere. ?

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

So now there is another small issue... now the ball in play and player up lamps are working... However, once any points are made on the playfield (no matter what ball it is) the “ball 3” lamp comes on(along with correct ball lamp) and 3 stays on until a drain, then game goes to next player and when that player scores first point, the “ball in play 3 lamp” stays on for the rest of that player’s ball.

Does the ball 3 lamp come on for any points scored (10 pts, 100 pts, 1000 pts, etc.)? If not that might help narrow it down.
Also, what solenoids fire when the ball 3 lamp light comes on? If it's a relay switch causing the problem it would help to know what relays fire when it comes on and hold until the ball drains.

Looking at the manual, the Outhole relay for example seems to break the hold circuit on the Ball Index and No. 1 relays. Are they active when the Ball 3 light is on?

/Mark

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Does the ball 3 lamp come on for any points scored (10 pts, 100 pts, 1000 pts, etc.)? If not that might help narrow it down.

Yes, it’s not specific to a particular playfield switch or point value.

The only relay I see held on WHEN THIS HEPPENS is the “ball index” relay. It seems that a wire in that relay (5 switches) is crossed with something that it should not be. It’s this switch in the middle with the yellow wires / green(or grey?) wires, part of the Ball Index Relay. When I open it alone, the 3 lamp does go out. But I can’t just open it because the 3 lamp would then never come on.
Anyone have any ideas how to get it right again?

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#10 3 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

The only relay I see held on is the “ball index” relay. It seems that a wire in that relay (5 switches) is crossed with something that it should not be. It’s this switch in the middle with the yellow wires/ green wires, part of the Ball Index Relay. When I open it alone, the 3 lamp does go out. But I can’t just open it because the 3 lamp would then never come on.
Anyone have any ideas how to get it right again?

Sounds like you're on the right track. The Ball Index relay may be working perfectly and some other switch in that circuit is somehow lighting the Ball 3 light. On page 20 of the manual on ipdb.org, the normally open middle switch of the Ball Index relay (yellow wire to gray-yellow wire) is in the "hold circuit to the Extra Ball relay". Page 22 shows that the A switch on the Extra Ball relay (the switch closest to the metal relay frame) is at the other end of the gray-yellow wire. (Is the wire you're looking at really green, or could it be grey-yellow?)

Have a good look at the Extra ball relay and that first switch in particular. The manual says that it is energized by the bottom rollovers, but from your description it sounds like either the relay is energized more often than that, or maybe the first switch is stuck closed.

#11 3 years ago

Thank you for the suggestions. I will check on the Extra Ball Relay switch and report back.

Quoted from MarkG:

(Is the wire you're looking at really green, or could it be grey-yellow?)

It's this one. I really can't tell:

Screen Shot 2017-12-13 at 9.02.44 AM (resized).png

It's part of the fun fixing an EM!

#12 3 years ago

Ok, the first problem was that two wires were crossed. They were both tan/yellow. Once I fixed that, it got the ball 3 lamp not being on every point that is scored. The next problem was that ball in play lamp 5 was not working. That was resolved by tracking down two more crosses wires. They were grey/brown looking. Swapping those resolved that problem.

Like I previously said, a lot of cut wires looked exactly the same and it took some process of elimination to get the game working properly.

Now I’m down to one VERY small issue. The player 3 lamp in the lower right of the back glass is not working. This is really not critical to play a 4 player game. So I’m calling the game 99% and am going to start shopping it. Thanks to Sadacrack, CrazyLevi, and the other suggestions! Game is up.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

Ok, the first problem was that two wires were crossed. They were both tan/yellow. Once I fixed that, it got the ball 3 lamp not being on every point that is scored. The next problem was that ball in play lamp 5 was not working. That was resolved by tracking down two more crosses wires. They were grey/brown looking. Swapping those resolved that problem.
Like I previously said, a lot of cut wires looked exactly the same and it took some process of elimination to get the game working properly.
Now I’m down to one VERY small issue. The player 3 lamp in the lower right of the back glass is not working. This is really not critical to play a 4 player game. So I’m calling the game 99% and am going to start shopping it. Thanks to Sadacrack, CrazyLevi, and the other suggestions! Game is up.

That’s gotta feel good. Nice work everyone!

#14 3 years ago

Yeah man. I resolved the player 3 lamp now. It was this top arm on the coin unit not being clean.

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#15 3 years ago

-->Game Over lamps not working:

Found a new problem and updated the name of the thread. Game Over insert lamp(s) not working... Will post here if I can figure out why.

#16 3 years ago

Is the game over relay latched, or unlatched?

#17 3 years ago

G.O. Relay is latched or unlatched, depending on if the game is in play or not...

There is an additional problem I have just discovered this evening though that is of a greater significance. —> The bonus unit adds up and counts down properly, as indicated by the inserts on the PF... however, at the end of a ball, no bonus points are ever awarded.

#18 3 years ago

Ok, the game over lamps were not lighting because both bulbs were out. That’s was easy.

The bonus count up was two more crossed wires: these two looked exactly the same. (Red/GRN):

I think it’s all good now.
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