Hi northstar-, MarkG
time is running - late I am writing. I would like to try "chasing the faulty behaviour in a Two-Player game - not stepping from Player-1 to Player-2 - actually faulty stepping a step too much" - I would like to learn about the synchronuos actuating of "running motor rhythmically closes Switch SCM-1A" AND "Player-Unit in the Backbox is stepped" - write if You also want to dig-in into closing SCM-1A AND stepping the Player-Unit (One-Player-Game and Two-Player-Game).
See the first JPG - I believe this is the stepping in a ONE-Player-Game. See the second JPG - the position of the Player-Unit when Player-1 plays Ball-1. Greetings Rolf

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Hi MarkG, northstar-
Yes, Yes - I am still reading this --- but, I did part of laundry - I have to do the rest also, have to eat dinner - some rest and then go to sleep This is the last post for today. Greetings Rolf

Hi MarkG
thanks for post-22 - You should post +/- Title: "Stepping the Player-Unit in a Gottlieb-TWO-Player-Pin" here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic --- do not get angry, I add some words to Your post-22:
You should make an arrow "direction of rotation" - in Your JPG it is counterclockwise - other than what we see when we look into the backbox.
Enumerate the pathes by Path-A, Path-B, Path-C (?).
The Player-Unit positions are not Gottlieb standard - when Player-1 plays Ball-1 the PU is in (Homeposition is ) PU-Pos-Zero - when Player-2 plays Ball-1 it is PU-Pos-1 and so on.
((("First Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored" replace by +/- "First Score Motor 1A pulse cannot let current to reach the PU-Coil as other switches hinder")))
(((towards "bottom of JPG" teeth on the drawing of the cams are missing)))
(((The last sentence in Your description "5th Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored, Player 1's ball is served" replace by +/- "5th Score Motor 1A pulse cannot let current to reach the PU-Coil as other switches hinder")))
My writing (above) is most of all to show "have studied post-22". Greetings Rolf

Hi northstar-
I had an idea - but wanted to first try out the idea myself in my Far Out. I did try and the result is: "Not practicable". The idea was "a friend closes the Ball Trough Switch - looks at the turning motor and says "now" - "now" -"now" -"now" -"now" as he sees the motor actuating switchstack 1A on the motor - At the same time I (You) stand at the Backbox and look at the Player-Unit - NO stepping (?) on the first "now" --- then according to MarkG (post-22) matching "now" and "stepping" - doing a ONE-Player-Game - then a TWO Player-Game but with the manipulation (see beginning of Your post-10) - then truely a TWO-Player-Game (makes the fault to show up) --- always matching "now" and "stepping" (very rhythmically ?) --- then reporting about the combinations / rhythms Your pin shows (nows and steppings).

WELL - I looked at the turning motor in my Far Out - it turns too fast for me to give "good / precise" "now"s --- but
please ask a friend to close the Ball Trough Switch and You watch the Player-Unit in the "fault happens situation" --- is there a gap in time between the first stepping and then the faulty second stepping ? - a short gap ? a long gap ?
A weird hypothesis - see the bottom of the JPG in post-19 - closing of motor-4A and motor-4C happens very late according to the Motor Sequence Chart (((This closing is meant for actuating the LB and XB relays - but we are chasing a fault ...))). Greetings Rolf

Hi northstar-
(post-27) "Why does blocking motor 4C lets the Player-Unit work properly ?" - Most likely because You block the faulty path that does "friendly fire" into the feature "Stepping up the Player Unit".

(Smile) MarkG and me were in the last posts talking theory - How does a running Gottlieb TWO-Player-Pin does the stepping in the games ...

(Smile) MarkG (post-28) as me - we are on the "timing" - my original idea does not work (a friend says now, now, now, now, now as he see the motor 1A close in a turn of 120 degrees of the motor) - I like the idea - an improvement You see in the first JPG: You clip-on a looooong Jumper-Wire at the coil on the 10'000 Score-Drum of Player-1 --- the other end comes out of the pin, not touching metal. You clip-on a second Jumper-Wire at the Switch on E-Relay etc. Just before You come to the (faulty) stepping on Player-Unit: You make connection "my blue arrows". Then You have a "metronome" making five times toc, toc, toc, toc, toc - the Score-Drums steps - You hear it stepping and You look at the Player-Unit. You get (faulty situation) the Player-Unit stepped at the second "toc" - AND on the third or fouth or fifth "toc" ? Please report.

You may not want to do the metronome-stuff (?) --- from Your description a made a "red wiring, friendly fire) - means inspecting switch P2A and P1C. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: I really would like to learn about the timing of this friendly fire - just after the first stepping or very late - a pause inbetween or what ?

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Hi northstar-
this post is only about troubles "post-32" - the P-Relay and the O-Relay pull in. Questions: At that time does the motor run ? Do P-Relay and O-Relay stay pulling until the motor finishes the turn of 120 degrees (a third of an revolution) ? DID You make some points on Player-1-Ball-1 ? Means: Did the ZB-Relay in the Control-Bank "plunge" ? How about the Outhole-Kicker - did it fire ? Greetings Rolf

Hi northstar-
good - You got the game where it was. So we are on the original problem. Before Your post-32 came in I was writing on a fresh idea. Please accept I do not (by now) discuss post -32, -33, -34 --- I would like to talk about the fresh idea. See here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ to http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair to http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Gottlieb.C2.AE_Score_Motor : Read, especially 4.4.1.4 - the last two sentences --- switch dog positions must not be changed - if You suspect ... --- well, my fresh idea is: Have been changed - must be checked / changed back (?).

I never had to work on these short / long positions - I just read pinwiki. Look at my JPG - motor-2C is marked as being in "Long position" - look at Your Score-Motor - see this "L" position ? See that motor-3C in Your pin is "Short position" ? AND NOW in Your pin motor-4A - short or long ? Also motor-1A - short or long ? (Also motor-4C - short or long ?)
When You have motor-1A, -1C, -3C, -4A, -4C in "short" and -2C in "long" - does the pin no longer has "the problem" ?

The theory to my fresh idea: I believe ALL Gottlieb Two-Player-Pins at these years had the problem of "maybe friendly fire" --- see the lower half of my JPG - TWO-Player-Game, End of Player-1-Ball-1, switches I drew as positioned, "P-Relay is pulling, motor is running, first closing of SCM-1A has been done (no effect), second closing of motor-1A has been done - (with the help of closing motor-2C ) Player-Unit has been stepped.
Questions
- motor-1A closing the third time - can current flow to the Add-Player-Unit-Coil through my "Wiring-WH-BL ? Answer is "No" - upper part of "P2A" is open.
- motor-1A closing the third time - can current flow to the Add-Player-Unit-Coil through my "Wiring-WH-GR-Alpha ? Answer is "No" - switch "PB" is open (Two-Player-Game).
- motor-1A closing the third time - can current flow to the Add-Player-Unit-Coil through my "Wiring-WH-GR-Beta ? Answer is "No" - motor-4C is open (at this time open for sure).

The motor is turning further - we come to fourth closing of motor-1A - same questions - SAME answers.
The motor is turning further - we come to the fifth closing of motor-1A - hey, motor-4A and motor-4C are closing just before the fifth closing of motor-1A - when faulty "short / long" positions --- maybe "friendly fire" (?). Greetings Rolf

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Hi northstar-
it is nice that the switchdog positions are "as should / must". Unfortunately we (still) have the original problem. I allow myself an "cheeky / impertinent" thesis: Switch motor-4A is faulty always closed - acts like a wire - (and yes, motor-4C works correct) - the "shot of electricity through SCM-4C and then through SCM-4A is only controlled by duration of closed SCM-4C - faulty not controlled by SCM4C plus SCM-4A closed - so "SCM-4C and SCM-1A closing" work about the same as "SCM-2C and SCM-1A closing).
You can test my cheeky theory - see the JPG in post-35 - upper Test-Light - it is mounted "parallel" with the step-coil on the Player-Unit. As long in time the coil gets current - as long in time the Test-Light lights up. See the lower part of the JPG - Test-Light clipped-on after motor-4A (maybe it is easyer to clip-on at the Switch on P-Relay). This (lower part) Test-Light should light up only a very short period of time - see the motor Sequence Chart in the JPG - ONLY when motor-4C AND motor-4A are both closed. (My cheeky theory is: Duration of "lights up" is much longer - as long as SCM-4C is closed)

Inspect motor-4A - drop of solder fallen at the solder-lugs ? doghair crap of wire there ? one of the studs with the solderpoint bent - touching the other solder-lug ? Then test my cheeky theory. Greetings Rolf

Hi northstar-
of course, when You look at switch motor-4A: Also look at the switchblades / contactpoints - truely open when switch is open - when motor is not running - when motor is in its home position - when motor is at rest. Tomorrow will be a busy day - (this is my last post for today) - I go to sleep - greetings Rolf

Hi northstar-
answering Your post-39 "bottom up": Wipers and rivets - see the JPG - on bottom-left: I added stuff from the schematics - when PU is in pos-8, -9, -16, -17 current shall flow towards left to maybe actuate LB- maybe actuate XB-Relay. Look at the second JPG in post-19 - on the steel ratchet I count 30 teeth - so the unit has many positions to be in. Gottlieb-Definition: We start a new game (so it is a One-Player-Game) - reset of the Score-Drums is done and the PU does some stepping. When the (first) ball is kicked out - the pin is ready for Player-1 to launch Ball-1 - but we toggle-off / unplug the main power cord. This position the PU is in: Gottlieb calls it Position-Zero - also calls it Home-Position. When we (in mind) do one step we then reach position-1 is Player-2-Ball-1 - another step to position-2 is Player-3-Ball-1 - another step to position-3 is Player-4-Ball-1 - another step to position-4 is Player-1-Ball-2 etc. In a TWO-Player-pin there is no third player - there is no fourth player - BUT the stepping is there --- "Pos-8" - in a three-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-1, "Pos-9" - in a three-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-2. "Pos-16" - in a five-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-1 - "Pos-17" - in a five-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-2.

post-39 "When the ball rolls ..." the big question is "exactly when - what time" - see later on.
post-39 "Adjusting 4C ..." - I was hoping for faulty set switchdogs - adjusting.
post-39 "some kind of short with the PU --- not likely.
top of post-39: Most likely we have an fault in the Wiring-WH-GR-Beta and manipulating a switch to be always open will stop the fault --- it doesn't matter which switch we manipulate - open is open.

To the "problem" - see the JPG, upper left: The well known "Motor Sequence Chart" - then the chart again but I drew a red line upwards - the time when (in a running pin) motor-4A AND motor-4C are closed - thickness of my red line is duration of BOTH closing. To the right, up: magnified. To the right, below: I believe motor-4A is faulty closed, acts as a connecting wire --- the closing of motor-4C matches "beautyful, hmm, grumble" with the closing of motor-1A - fault happens.
I really would like to know --- prove my cheeky theory (post-37) right or prove it wrong -
SteveFury shoes a Test-Light - made by two 12Volt car-bulbs --- one put behind the other so it is summed up to 24Volts: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 --- what do You see (Test-Lights) when You let drain in a Two-Player-Game - let drain Player-1-Ball-1. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: Assuming is O.K. - but proved right (or proved wrong) is better.

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Hi Bill
maybe You remember - I once tried "looking at the turning motor in my Far Out saying now, now, now, now, now when I see motor-1A actuating" --- it was too fast for me ...
So (post-41) "first pulse happens right away ..." maybe - maybe not. In post-30, first JPG I suggested a "metronome" to hear --- well, look here the JPG - toggle off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - then establish permanent this Test-Light. The clip-on point (my blue star, wire black) : You can clip-on at the solderlug (wire-black) on the coil on the "Add first 10'000s Unit" - or You can clip-on on another coil (side wire-black) - it doesnt matter - wire-black in the pin is wire-black - abundant - simply wire black hops from one coil to the next coil - to next, next, next --- always wire black.
Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - EVERY time the motor makes a turn of 120 degrees: You see this Test-Light light-up five times - it is somehow an "optical metronome".
Also mount permanent the other two Test-Lights (post-40). Don't pay attention to the Test-Lights when You start a new Two-Player-Game - play Player-1-Ball-1 ( make some points) - then You watch the three Test-Lights while a friend let drain Player-1-Ball-1. On the "optical metronome" You will see "rhythmically lighting up five times". The lower Test-Light in the JPG in post-40 should flash-up between the fourth and the fifth lighting-up of the "optical metronome".
The upper Test-Light in the JPG in post-40 should light-up together with the second lighting up of the optical metronome. And then it does faulty light up a second time. Please write about the three Test-Lights.

Your "check WH-GR ...": I believe the wiring is good - I believe the motor-switch-4A is faulty always closed. By now do not bother about the wirings to PU-8, -9, -15, -16. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Bill
I go through Your post-43 sentence by sentence - write comments and some theory.

post-43 - Set up the light parallel to the Player-Unit - no light when pulses any Player. We must have functioning Test-Lights - see the JPG "What ever Coil": When we hook-on the Test-Light parallel to the Coil - the Test-Light MUST light up every time the Coil gets current and pulls --- if the Test-Light does not light up: Check its wiring and the bulbs. See in the JPG "SteveFury-Test-Light: He made it quick and dirty - he has put the metal outsides of the two bulbs together and has run an tape all around - connected. In the JPG I drew a short line - connectid. And the two wires of the Test-Light are soldered-on on the tips of the bulbs.

post-43 - Set up the test light but had it ... It confuses me when You write about faults You made but have seen this fault made.

post-43 - If ground is blk why connect to backbox. I do not understand this sentence. My interpretation is "when I have to clip-on one side of a Test-Light - clip-on at wire-blk - why must I clip-on at wire-blk - physically wire-blk in the backbox ?" See the JPG - in the schematics the "AA" is drawn near "BB" - but the Ball-Return-Coil is on the playfield - while the LB- and XB-Relays sit in the Control-Bank in the Ccabinet - far apart - definitely not wired in the pin as shown in the schematics. Alike the situation with "CC", "DD, "EE" - in the schematics stuff is shown side by side - but in reality in the pin the stuff is cabinet, playfield, backbox being far apart.
Quite logical is clipping on like "What ever Coil" --- When clipping on onto wire-blk in another test: Clip-on at wire-blk where it is convenient for You.

post-43 - Here's what happening ... pulse occurs (2 player game). See in the JPG the "Motor Sequence Chart" - Switch-motor-1A pulses, actuates five times per turn of 120 degrees. This is done so quickly we cannot look at the turning motor to figure out on what of the five pulses the Player-Unit actually steps (((in post-41 You write: The 1st pulse (I assume Player-Unit steps) happens right away and this means "on the FIRST pulse of motor-1A" - FIRST pulse is completely wrong - we'd have to dig in into this --- I believe / hope: First actuating of Player-Unit happens on second pulse on motor-1A.
I must have solid ground - I need three Test-Lights - see the JPG, blue: The "optical metronome" lighting up five times per turn of 120 degrees - then the "Add Player-Unit Test-Light" for "when does the Player-Unit actually steps" - then the "switches-motor-4C, -4A Test-Light" to learn about the timing / duration of this single pulse of closing -4C and -4A. When I can read Your report on "These three Test-Lights act ... when stepping from Player-1-Ball-1 towards (but the fault happens)" - then I can suggest another specific test.

Sidenote: For a long time I thought that my Orbit has a fault --- the Outhole-Kicker always fired twice. It did not really bothered me as the pin was functioning. Then I was studying the schematics and realized: The O-(Outhole)-Ball-Return-Relay was actuated twice and the reason for this: See https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1724&picno=19272 - the circle of lights in the center of the picture - for every new ball it had to be stepped forward to its Zero-Position - sometimes ony 1 or 2 steps - sometimes 7,8,9 steps. This stepping forward is triggered / done by the pulling-in of O-Relay - and a turn of the motor --- a turn of the motor can make up to five steps - to sometimes do the 7,8,9 steps: Gottlieb simply made the O-Relay pull-in twice ...
(((We may look later at the question "Why does in 'Jack in the Box' the O-Relay pull-in twice"))) Greetings Rolf

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Hi fellow pinsiders
what is / are Your opinion / thoughts on behalf of "beginning of post-46" ?

Hi Bill
K-Mart and such stores - automobile department, car electrics, 12Volt car bulbs - some SteveFury-Test-Lights as everybody uses - to eliminate possible problems on "Test-Lights" (?).

Since quite a while I have an working hypothesis*** to be proven right or wrong - then maybe further tests or some brooding over the schematics - new hypothesis.
The working hypothesis*** is - see JPG in post-44, Motor Sequence Charts: Switch-motor-4A is faulty - is faulty permanent closed (blades, contact-points) - acts as an connecting wire - the shot controlled by motor-switch-4C and motor-switch-4A is (faulty) only controlled by motor-switch-4C.
Pros of this Hypothesis***: What we have so far as Test-Results matches with the Hypothesis.
Cons: You manually made this switch (motor-4A) several times "always open" - so You had looked at this switch several times - You should have seen when this switch is faulty always closed ...

I refer to my post-44 "I must have solid ground ..." - three Test-Lights and an complete description - You give results in post-46:
"Blue light (is my optical metronome)" lights up five times when the motor makes a turn of 120 degrees - correct, wanted.
"In a Two-Player-Game when Player-1-Ball-1 drains: The first stepping on the Player-Unit is at the time when the optical metronome shows 'second closing' " - correct, wanted.
Good observation "The faulty, not wanted second stepping on the Player-Unit is when the optical metronome shows 'fifth closing' " - this supports my Hypothesis***.

Missing is the information "What is the Test-Light (motor-4C / -4A) doing in this turn of the motor when the stepping on the Player-Unit happens --- just a very short flash between optical-metronome four and five (this is wanted) ? Or: Starting a bit before the optical-metronome-five - and then stays lit as long as optical-metronome-five happens (this is faulty) ?

Your end of post-46 - problems with the Test-Light: Again, make You some SteveFury Test-Lights. Greetings Rolf
P.S.: A Test-Light simply hooked on parallel on an coil: The Test-Light only lights up when the coil gets current and pulls.

Hi Bill
today is my Birthday - I was and am doing other than Pinball stuff. I will answer Your post-49 by tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

Hi Bill, MarkG, +
(another post to come to posts -48 to -52) I am - maybe You too - I am under pressure to make some progress. A long time ago You wrote: "Sneaking-in a stripe of paper inbetween the Switchblades of the Switch-motor-4A makes the pin to step correct (in a Two-Player-Game) from Player-1-Ball-1 to Player-2-Ball-1. I was fearing "troubles on the last ball" when keeping this switch always open - but well, lets try and look if You have troubles on the last ball: Make*** this switch stay open all the time - then start and play an Two-Player-Game through the balls --- does the stepping always work ? - when You come to Player-1-Ball-5***: Does the Bonus-Multiplier comes on ? - when You come to Player-2-Ball-5*** and You play and then loose the ball: Does the pin changes to "Game-Over" ? - Does the Number-Match-Light in the Backbox comes on ?
Player-1,2-Ball-5***: When You have the pin set to three balls per game: Read "Ball-3".

Make*** this switch: 99% of "adjusting a switch" is to bend a bit on the so-called "Stationary Blade" - 1% is to bend the so-called "Moved Blade". When in the case of "the turning motor actuates Switch-motor-4A": The "Moved Blades" are the longer ones - having mounted an Nylon Spacer - so bend away a bit the other blade - the Stationary blade - bend, then try - bend, then try ... until the stepping from Player-1 to Player-2 works. You may have bent good and the switch works correct - maybe You have bent too muchmade it "always open" - we will see. Greetings Rolf

P.S.: The schematics tells me that there are TWO switches mounted in the stack "motor-4A" - one has wires RED-WH and OR+BL is Orange-mingled-with-Black. The other switch in the stack has wires WH-OR and unknown (schematics) color. Adjust this "other switch".

Hi Bill
I tried to follow Your descriptions (post-49, post-51) - I am confused. I am german speaking so often I just struggle with the english language. To show my problems I take these sentences from post-51: "The BL+RED leaf is solder to 2C middle sw. next to it and the other leaf has a GR jumper on the other leaf which is connect to M4A outer sw. which has the same pulse which is the WH-OR wire." My problems:
- leaf means "wire" ?
- 2C middle sw. makes me to look up in the schematics - O.K., on position motor-2C there are three switches - I look all over the schematics to find these three switches (see the first JPG, "green")
- next to it - well, 2c middle sw. next to what ?
- and the other leaf has a GR jumper on the other leaf - well, other leaf, other leaf ? Hmm, GR Jumper which is connect to M4A outer sw. - this "M4A outer sw." makes me to look up in the schematics - O.K., on position motor-4A there are two switches - I look all over the schematics to find these two switches (see the first JPG, "orange") - O.K. I see a connection from motor-2C (first JPG, brown lines) to motor-4A - but these switches are not of interest - have nothing to do with the "fault in stepping"
- which has the same pulse which is the WH-OR wire - well, Yes - when two switches are mounted on the very same motor-position then they are actuated synchronuous - or what do You mean with the " which has the same pulse which is the WH-OR wire" ?

Another thing - in post-49 You wrote an observation: "Put testlight on the PB WH-GR Leaf and ground on the reset bank and lit up when on the 1st player" --- hmm, see the second JPG - it is "Two-Player-Game when the first Player plays Ball-1. I marked "red lines" everything that has power, current "ready to flow", this is wanted. When "Switch P2A" is faulty, faulty all three blades have contact: My "marked pink wiring" ALSO, faulty is "has power, current 'ready to flow' " - this of course is not wanted, this does match with Your observation "lit up when on the 1st player.
Please have a good look on this Switch on the Player-Unit (P2A).
Then do the adjusting (see post-53) of Switch-motor-4A - in the second JPG here marked with a big black star. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Bill
the Motor Switch Chart - look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pin-up-score-motor-switch-position-sheet#post-2599599 - the same as You show in post-12, maybe a bit better for "print out".

To Your post-55
- we must be very precise talking the right / true color of wires, switch positions etc.
- "leaf" - good - a simple abbreviation of "solderpoint of a switchblade where wire of color XY is soldered-on"
- middle switch 4C, outer switch 4C, jumpers etc. --- we must live with the fact "the schematics are drawn abstract / neat looking - the reality in the pin is wired other" - the only thing we can say "I see a (maybe long) connecting wire / line in the schematics, NO SWITCHES in this wiring --- then in reality in the pin THERE is (maybe just a short jumper) a direct connection".
- middle switch 4C --- very interesting the text in the motor sequence chart (post-12): "LB" Relay Control --- the reason this strange looking wiring (through 4C, 4A) is in the pin: NOT for stepping - but for "LB-Relay". When blocking this switch 4C we probably run (in a One-Player-Game ? - in a Two-Player-Game ?) into problem "On last ball actuating the LB-Relay does not work" ...
On behalf of "temporary cut / block this wiring": It does not matter if You block 4C or block 4A --- In terms of troubleshooting I would like You to inspect 4A - truely open when not actuating ?
- the match unit is working --- fine.
- orange mingled with BLK --- what colors of wires do You have on the INSIDE-Switch on stack "motor-4A" - the schematics says "RED-WH", "OR+BL" --- grumble, a fault I often do: I mix up "BLK is Black" and "BL is Blue" --- O.K., I meant Orange-mingled-with-BLUE (((and I read the first sentence in this post, again and again and again))).
- Meaning M4C has the same pulse as M4A WH-OR --- IF, if, if You have the fault in Your pin - the fault I believe You have in Your pin - the fault 'at location motor-4A' You do not have a switch (open, sometimes closed) - You faulty have an closed switch (acts as a simple connecting wire) --- IF, if, if You have this fault: Then You detect "same pulse" but actually it is just the closing of M4C You detect on different places. See the JPG in post-44, upper right corner: 4A must close before 4C closes - 4A must open just after 4C has closed - only for a very, very short time both are closed (in a functioning pin).
- how about f, g, h. --- f: when the PU is in position "Player-1 is playing": P1C must be open so current can not flow - You detect current flowing so P1C is faulty closed. --- g: Hmm, Your observation is good, wanted as P1C must be open when it is Player-1 turn, P1C must be closed all other positions of the PU. Question: How can You have the "f" and the "g" at the same time ?
--- h: I also believe this is right --- the closing of motor-2C let current flow towards motor-1A /PU --- current also flows through closed motor-1C (it is player-2 playing) and further through P2A reaching its side WH-GR. Yes, I believe this is right.
Unfortunately the "h" does not tell if the three-bladed-switch-P2A has faulty all the three blades connected ...

From post-55, at the end "You show Test-Light on P switch gave results 1 pulse on step 5 --- again: motor-4A must open so the "long in time closing of motor-4C" can not fall together with fifth closing of motor-1A --- look if the motor-4A is faulty always closed.

I repeat --- look at the three blades on P2A, look at P1C - then do my suggestion "post-53, motor-4A". Greetings Rolf

Hi frb
welcome to the topic. I believe that Bill has an "always (faulty) closed switch motor-4A acting like an connecting wire (instead of acting as a switch)" --- maybe the leafs / contact-points - maybe where the wires are soldered-on at the switch - maybe a bent lug making contact - maybe a drop of solder - maybe a doghair crap of wire. Here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#fuses - the third picture shows a heavy bent solder-lug on a lamp. Greetings Rolf

Hi Bill
to Your post-70
- hmm, the motor was taken apart
- solder is between the tabs of M4C outer sw. and inner sw. --- actually a thin blank wire should be there - soldered on - see the bottom right corner of the JPG: Schematics are drawn abstract, made beautyful --- the reality in the pin might be other - but for sure: a connection in the schematics is an connection in the pin. So M4C and M4C most likely are O.K.
- A points (?) --- see top of the JPG: M1A and M4A both have five closings --- but ith an offset. To check this: I drew another Test-Light mounted on "other switch on position M4A".
- motor is not turning at normally speed --- hmm, slower or faster ? - "slower" should not mke problems in stepping the PU. Greetings Rolf

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Hi Bill
I did not / do not want to annoy You - this is my last post in Your topic. See the JPG - after You manipulate the motor-4C to be always closed - If the motor-4C-4A-Test-Light is constantly lit: This then would be / is the proof of "faulty always closed motor-4A". Greetings Rolf

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