EM Tech Help: Jumping Jack

(Topic ID: 227421)

EM Tech Help: Jumping Jack


By northstar-

33 days ago



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  • 21 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 hours ago by northstar-
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    Scan_0002 (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Start Up Seq (resized).jpg
    Scan_0001 (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 2P pulses (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 1P pulses (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 2nd path (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 3rd path (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 1st path (resized).jpg
    0Jumping-Jack-from-Top-Score (resized).jpg
    0Jumping-Jack-Work-09 (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Add Player unit bulb test (resized).jpg
    DSC03305 (resized).JPG
    DSC03306 (resized).JPG
    DSC03211 (resized).JPG
    Jumping Jack Add Player unit (resized).jpg
    Jumping Jack Scan (resized).jpg

    #1 33 days ago

    Haveing trouble with player Two
    Player one plays game fine but when I want two players ,Player #2 does not work
    press the start button player one will be lit press again # two lights up in backbox ball kicks out and player one scores
    When player 1 drains player unit advance and player one lights up but there is no ball number on backglass.
    #2 does not light.

    Note: when I manual put score on both players the reels both reset properly

    I do not know where the starting point would be or the game over would be for the wippers.
    One end has one finger other has two I do know the player unit does stop when P5B opens but I don't know what rivets it should begin on???
    Have some pics of Player Unit.
    If someone can send me a pic where the wiper is on game over that would help.

    I also going to check XB BX ZB motor 2C

    Thanks in advance for some help

    DSC03298 (2) (resized).JPGDSC03300 (resized).JPGDSC03302 (resized).JPGDSC03303 (resized).JPG
    #2 33 days ago
    Quoted from northstar-:

    When player 1 drains player unit advance and player one lights up but there is no ball number on backglass.

    How many times does the Player Unit advance when this happens?

    #3 32 days ago

    I was away I'll let you know.
    When the game works with one player the single wiper would stop apox 11 oclock
    after resetting. IN the picture where there is a set of six rivets.
    The second three rivets to the right (bottom rivet) in that row is were the wiper lands for first ball.
    and then move to the next set of rivets (two) and stop at the second rivet.

    With a two player I'll will have to see how many steps it takes after ball one.
    I believe it should step once buy if that happen the wiper would not land on a rivet at this starting position
    This is why I would like to know were the starting point is?

    Thank you for your reply and I'll post when I find out how many steps after player one first ball drains.

    #4 32 days ago

    I all ready mention it was the single wiper

    #5 30 days ago

    Still hung up with this Player Unit.

    When the ball drains for player one the Player unit pluses twice on a two player game.

    When I manualy Step the Player Unit once after player one is lit and with ball one lit on backglass the P2 stack is activate and player two lights,
    as well as the number on the backglass.

    Then for ball two player 1 i'll advance the unit three times to land on the next pair of rivets
    and the ball Two lights up on the Backglass,then I'll advance the player unit once and the player two will light.
    and repeat the steps for the next 3 balls untill game over after ball 5 second player.

    so the sequence for the cams would be one three one three to hit the high spots on the cam.
    is this problem a timming issue?
    How can I regulate the pulses to the player unit

    #6 30 days ago

    It should only pulse once. I don't have the schematic in front of me. I'd start by looking at the 2nd player relay on the reset bank and make sure it is adjusted correctly. Also check your advance player relay. My jack in the box had a solder blob on the side of the switch stack making it advance continuously everytime the score motor would turn. There has a to be a switch on the score motor that operates the advance player relay. I would look at the schematics and check to make sure it's in alignment.

    #7 30 days ago

    Here a schematic check out the relays they look good.
    If the cams open up the switches for the PB1 ,PB2 won't they pluse to get to the high spot on the cam?
    Thanks for the input

    Jumping Jack Scan (resized).jpg
    #8 29 days ago

    Try starting a 2 player game. Manually advance each one of the player 2 score reels, play the ball and then see if it still advances too much to rule out the reset path being mis-adjusted.

    If it still has the issue after doing that, I'd double check P4E and P3F to make sure they are adjusted correctly. A trick I just learned to troubleshoot a poorly aligned switch is to put a small piece of paper between the contacts. That can let you rule out a path.

    I usually start at the coil, rule out the branches and work backwards.

    #9 29 days ago

    I'll give it a shot I was looking at Stevfury basics schematics and did confirm that the pluses are right to a two player 5 ball game .
    steps one then three and then one than three till the end of the game. put did not figured out the pluses.
    threw the schematic. I going towork on it. checking relays

    #10 29 days ago

    I started a two player game and played the 1st ball but did not let it drain in the outhole.
    Then I advance the Player Unit manualy 1 step and played player 2 and let the ball drain in the outhole.

    Then the Player Unit advance three times which is correct and ball 2 lit for player one.
    but when the number 1 players ball drains on any ball the player Unit advances 2 which then puts the wiper arm out of adjustment,
    and passing the rivet by 1 step

    cannot figure out the pluses to the Player Unit? Need 1 pulse after player ones ball drains.
    (frustration in work)

    2 weeks later
    #11 14 days ago

    Summarizing a parallel thread on r.g.p hoping to get another set of eyes on this...

    Observations:
    1) 1 player game plays fine
    2) on a 2 player game, when player 1's ball drains, the Player Unit takes two steps rather than the expected 1 step.
    Jumping Jack Add Player unit (resized).jpg
    3) blocking the Score Motor 2C switch blocks both player unit pulses when player 1 drains so the player unit doesn't step at all
    4) blocking the Score Motor 4C switch makes the game behave correctly on a 2 player game (just 1 pulse when player 1 drains)
    5) blocking the Player Unit P1C switch also makes the game behave correctly on a 2 player game (just 1 pulse when player 1 drains)

    @northstar please confirm that these observations are correct, especially 3) and 5) because they seem contradictory to me. But if 4) is correct the extra pulse on a 2 player game is somehow getting from the Score Motor 4C switch to the blue-white-red wire between the Score Motor 2C switch and the Player Unit P1C switch.

    The most likely path to me for the extra pulse is Score Motor 4C switch -> Score Motor 4A switch -> P relay switch -> Player Unit P2A switch -> Player Unit P1C switch, but only more experimenting with blocking switches, looking for shorts, etc. will narrow down the possibilities.

    /Mark

    #12 14 days ago

    Thanks so much for the heads up Mark!
    Your Description of the problem is spot on!
    Just to add a bit more info to #5 after player 2 drains,then there are 3 pulses to get to next ball for player 1 which is correct. (when switch is blocked)

    PB 2nd Player Relay LB Bonus Value Relay XB Last Ball Relay
    ZB 1st Ball Relay SB1 Reset Control Relay (these relays are in the control bank)
    P Add Player Unit Relay (this relay is on the motor board)

    Any additional comments or knowledge of the circuit, in troubleshooting this problem, would be most Welcome!!!
    Thanking you in advance

    DSC03211 (resized).JPG
    #13 14 days ago

    DSC03305 (resized).JPGDSC03306 (resized).JPG
    #14 14 days ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    3) blocking the Score Motor 2C switch blocks both player unit pulses when player 1 drains so the player unit doesn't step at all
    5) blocking the Player Unit P1C switch also makes the game behave correctly on a 2 player game (just 1 pulse when player 1 drains)
    @northstar please confirm that these observations are correct, especially 3) and 5) because they seem contradictory to me.

    Can you confirm that these are both true? It doesn't seem likely.

    #15 13 days ago

    That's correct.
    I block P1 switch before player 1 drains cause the switch is open, this allows 1 pulse for player two
    otherwise steps two and misses the rivet by 1, and then throughs the rest of the game off.

    #16 10 days ago

    I don't understand why you think by blocking motor 2C wouldn't block the pulses?
    isn't this the path to energize the Add Player Unit Coil?
    Through 2C, ZB, BX, XB and out (a circuit)

    #17 9 days ago

    If you can block the score motor 2C switch and you get no pulses to the player unit (neither the 1 expected pulse nor the 1 errant pulse) that implies that both pulses rely on the score motor 2C switch being closed. But if you can block the player unit P1C switch and get 1 pulse (instead of 2) to the player unit, that implies that one pulse relies on the P1C switch being closed and the other doesn't. Taken together that sounds like one pulse relies on both the score motor 2C and player unit P1C switches being closed but looking at the schematic I don't see how that's possible unless there's a short somewhere. That's why I wonder if blocking score motor 2C blocks one but not both pulses.

    This may be a good situation to use the light bulb tester described by @stevefury elsewhere here on pinside. It might help identify which paths the two pulses rely on. With any luck you'll find places in the circuit where there's just one pulse which should help isolate where the 2nd pulse is coming from.
    Jumping Jack Add Player unit bulb test (resized).jpg
    Clip one lead of the bulb tester to the Add Player Unit solenoid solder lug with the black wire. Then clip the other lead to various points in the circuit (including those with red arrows) to see how many flashes each point yields.

    1 week later
    #19 1 day ago

    Hi northstar-, MarkG
    time is running - late I am writing. I would like to try "chasing the faulty behaviour in a Two-Player game - not stepping from Player-1 to Player-2 - actually faulty stepping a step too much" - I would like to learn about the synchronuos actuating of "running motor rhythmically closes Switch SCM-1A" AND "Player-Unit in the Backbox is stepped" - write if You also want to dig-in into closing SCM-1A AND stepping the Player-Unit (One-Player-Game and Two-Player-Game).
    See the first JPG - I believe this is the stepping in a ONE-Player-Game. See the second JPG - the position of the Player-Unit when Player-1 plays Ball-1. Greetings Rolf

    0Jumping-Jack-Work-09 (resized).jpg0Jumping-Jack-from-Top-Score (resized).jpg
    #20 9 hours ago
    Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

    write if You also want to dig-in into closing SCM-1A AND stepping the Player-Unit (One-Player-Game and Two-Player-Game).

    I'd like to understand this circuit better than I do and Rolf's drawings got me studying it some more. I think I agree with Rolf and want to elaborate or clarify. There are basically three paths that provide pulses to advance the Player Unit as shown above and that I'll redraw below. Which path is used for any given situation is determined by the Player Unit cam switches and by the PB/Second Player relay switch.

    In a one player game the Player Unit gets 4 pulses when the ball drains to step the Player Unit 4 times. In a two player game, when Player 1 drains just 1 pulse is delivered, then when Player 2 drains the remaining 3 pulses are delivered.

    Path 1 to the Player Unit is through the Score Motor 2C switch. This path delivers the first pulse any time the ball drains:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 1st path (resized).jpg

    Path 2 goes through the PB/2nd Player relay switch:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 3rd path (resized).jpg

    And Path 3 bypasses the PB/Second Player relay switch:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 2nd path (resized).jpg

    The significant difference between the paths 2 and 3 is the PB/2nd Player relay switch. That switch opens on a 2 player game effectively disabling path 2.

    So the generic sequence any time a ball drains is:
    - get one Player Unit pulse through the Score Motor 2C switch (path 1)
    - if it's a 1 player game get a pulse through the PB relay switch (path 2)
    - if the Player Unit has taken two steps (received two pulses) get two more pulses through path 3

    On a 1 player game that's pretty straightforward. All three of the steps in the sequence are taken and all three paths are used to get 4 pulses each time the ball drains:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 1P pulses (resized).jpg
    Things are much more interesting on a 2 player game. When player 1 drains, one pulse goes through path 1 and advances the Player Unit one step, which closes the P1C switch and (I think) toggles the P2A Make/Break switch to select path 2. Since path 2 is disabled on a 2 player game no more pulses are generated and the Player Unit stays where it is, one step past it's home position. When player 2 drains another pulse goes through path 1 and advances the Player Unit, which leaves the P1C switch closed but again toggles the Make/Break P2A switch effectively selecting path 3. Since path 3 doesn't care about the PB relay switch, the next two pulses advance the Player Unit until the P1C switch opens.
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 2P pulses (resized).jpg
    If this is all true then I'm a little confused about the P1C and P2A switches. The cam diagrams seem to show that the P1C switch should close one step before the P2A Make/Break switch changes state. But for this scenario to work both would have to change after the 1st Player Unit pulse to use path 2 through the PB/2nd Player relay switch. So perhaps the cams in Jumping Jack are different than the cams in Top Score (which are shown above), or else I'm missing something.

    /Mark

    #21 2 hours ago

    First off I am Thankful for your guys determination in this issue !,like myself trying to figure
    out this circuit and the problem with the extra pulse on a 2 player game.
    I read a lot on the player unit watch all the videos and tried the test light,also tracked down the wiring with this circuit and didn't find a damn thing!

    Want to thank Rolf Martin for joining in on the topic and his input.
    Mark your right on with the pulses as said in the beginning of your post (#20)

    Just cant figure out why I block motor 2C middle switch the game will pulse right??
    This seems like it would be some kind of clue to the problem?
    The P1 cam starts out on the high spot on the cam then closes and one step (pulse P2 will be on the high spot on the cam and then 3 pulses back to P1 high spot on the cam witch in term opens and closes the switches.
    I know when the trough switch is active it starts the sequence to the player unit, and actives the P relay.

    One thing I tried was put the test light on P2A player 1 make/break switch WH-BL and the bulb lit then when player 2 was up move the jumper to the other leaf WH-GR and no light. (GR jumper in the middle) maybe this helps?

    This is from the JJ Manual and hope it helps.

    Jumping Jack Start Up Seq (resized).jpgScan_0001 (resized).jpgScan_0002 (resized).jpg
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