EM Tech Help: Jumping Jack

(Topic ID: 227421)

EM Tech Help: Jumping Jack


By northstar-

3 months ago



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  • 89 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 44 days ago by northstar-
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    There are 89 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 3 months ago

    Haveing trouble with player Two
    Player one plays game fine but when I want two players ,Player #2 does not work
    press the start button player one will be lit press again # two lights up in backbox ball kicks out and player one scores
    When player 1 drains player unit advance and player one lights up but there is no ball number on backglass.
    #2 does not light.

    Note: when I manual put score on both players the reels both reset properly

    I do not know where the starting point would be or the game over would be for the wippers.
    One end has one finger other has two I do know the player unit does stop when P5B opens but I don't know what rivets it should begin on???
    Have some pics of Player Unit.
    If someone can send me a pic where the wiper is on game over that would help.

    I also going to check XB BX ZB motor 2C

    Thanks in advance for some help

    DSC03298 (2) (resized).JPGDSC03300 (resized).JPGDSC03302 (resized).JPGDSC03303 (resized).JPG
    #2 3 months ago
    Quoted from northstar-:

    When player 1 drains player unit advance and player one lights up but there is no ball number on backglass.

    How many times does the Player Unit advance when this happens?

    #3 3 months ago

    I was away I'll let you know.
    When the game works with one player the single wiper would stop apox 11 oclock
    after resetting. IN the picture where there is a set of six rivets.
    The second three rivets to the right (bottom rivet) in that row is were the wiper lands for first ball.
    and then move to the next set of rivets (two) and stop at the second rivet.

    With a two player I'll will have to see how many steps it takes after ball one.
    I believe it should step once buy if that happen the wiper would not land on a rivet at this starting position
    This is why I would like to know were the starting point is?

    Thank you for your reply and I'll post when I find out how many steps after player one first ball drains.

    #4 3 months ago

    I all ready mention it was the single wiper

    #5 3 months ago

    Still hung up with this Player Unit.

    When the ball drains for player one the Player unit pluses twice on a two player game.

    When I manualy Step the Player Unit once after player one is lit and with ball one lit on backglass the P2 stack is activate and player two lights,
    as well as the number on the backglass.

    Then for ball two player 1 i'll advance the unit three times to land on the next pair of rivets
    and the ball Two lights up on the Backglass,then I'll advance the player unit once and the player two will light.
    and repeat the steps for the next 3 balls untill game over after ball 5 second player.

    so the sequence for the cams would be one three one three to hit the high spots on the cam.
    is this problem a timming issue?
    How can I regulate the pulses to the player unit

    #6 3 months ago

    It should only pulse once. I don't have the schematic in front of me. I'd start by looking at the 2nd player relay on the reset bank and make sure it is adjusted correctly. Also check your advance player relay. My jack in the box had a solder blob on the side of the switch stack making it advance continuously everytime the score motor would turn. There has a to be a switch on the score motor that operates the advance player relay. I would look at the schematics and check to make sure it's in alignment.

    #7 3 months ago

    Here a schematic check out the relays they look good.
    If the cams open up the switches for the PB1 ,PB2 won't they pluse to get to the high spot on the cam?
    Thanks for the input

    Jumping Jack Scan (resized).jpg
    #8 3 months ago

    Try starting a 2 player game. Manually advance each one of the player 2 score reels, play the ball and then see if it still advances too much to rule out the reset path being mis-adjusted.

    If it still has the issue after doing that, I'd double check P4E and P3F to make sure they are adjusted correctly. A trick I just learned to troubleshoot a poorly aligned switch is to put a small piece of paper between the contacts. That can let you rule out a path.

    I usually start at the coil, rule out the branches and work backwards.

    #9 3 months ago

    I'll give it a shot I was looking at Stevfury basics schematics and did confirm that the pluses are right to a two player 5 ball game .
    steps one then three and then one than three till the end of the game. put did not figured out the pluses.
    threw the schematic. I going towork on it. checking relays

    #10 3 months ago

    I started a two player game and played the 1st ball but did not let it drain in the outhole.
    Then I advance the Player Unit manualy 1 step and played player 2 and let the ball drain in the outhole.

    Then the Player Unit advance three times which is correct and ball 2 lit for player one.
    but when the number 1 players ball drains on any ball the player Unit advances 2 which then puts the wiper arm out of adjustment,
    and passing the rivet by 1 step

    cannot figure out the pluses to the Player Unit? Need 1 pulse after player ones ball drains.
    (frustration in work)

    2 weeks later
    #11 78 days ago

    Summarizing a parallel thread on r.g.p hoping to get another set of eyes on this...

    Observations:
    1) 1 player game plays fine
    2) on a 2 player game, when player 1's ball drains, the Player Unit takes two steps rather than the expected 1 step.
    Jumping Jack Add Player unit (resized).jpg
    3) blocking the Score Motor 2C switch blocks both player unit pulses when player 1 drains so the player unit doesn't step at all
    4) blocking the Score Motor 4C switch makes the game behave correctly on a 2 player game (just 1 pulse when player 1 drains)
    5) blocking the Player Unit P1C switch also makes the game behave correctly on a 2 player game (just 1 pulse when player 1 drains)

    @northstar please confirm that these observations are correct, especially 3) and 5) because they seem contradictory to me. But if 4) is correct the extra pulse on a 2 player game is somehow getting from the Score Motor 4C switch to the blue-white-red wire between the Score Motor 2C switch and the Player Unit P1C switch.

    The most likely path to me for the extra pulse is Score Motor 4C switch -> Score Motor 4A switch -> P relay switch -> Player Unit P2A switch -> Player Unit P1C switch, but only more experimenting with blocking switches, looking for shorts, etc. will narrow down the possibilities.

    /Mark

    #12 78 days ago

    Thanks so much for the heads up Mark!
    Your Description of the problem is spot on!
    Just to add a bit more info to #5 after player 2 drains,then there are 3 pulses to get to next ball for player 1 which is correct. (when switch is blocked)

    PB 2nd Player Relay LB Bonus Value Relay XB Last Ball Relay
    ZB 1st Ball Relay SB1 Reset Control Relay (these relays are in the control bank)
    P Add Player Unit Relay (this relay is on the motor board)

    Any additional comments or knowledge of the circuit, in troubleshooting this problem, would be most Welcome!!!
    Thanking you in advance

    DSC03211 (resized).JPG
    #13 78 days ago

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    #14 78 days ago
    Quoted from MarkG:

    3) blocking the Score Motor 2C switch blocks both player unit pulses when player 1 drains so the player unit doesn't step at all
    5) blocking the Player Unit P1C switch also makes the game behave correctly on a 2 player game (just 1 pulse when player 1 drains)
    @northstar please confirm that these observations are correct, especially 3) and 5) because they seem contradictory to me.

    Can you confirm that these are both true? It doesn't seem likely.

    #15 77 days ago

    That's correct.
    I block P1 switch before player 1 drains cause the switch is open, this allows 1 pulse for player two
    otherwise steps two and misses the rivet by 1, and then throughs the rest of the game off.

    #16 73 days ago

    I don't understand why you think by blocking motor 2C wouldn't block the pulses?
    isn't this the path to energize the Add Player Unit Coil?
    Through 2C, ZB, BX, XB and out (a circuit)

    #17 73 days ago

    If you can block the score motor 2C switch and you get no pulses to the player unit (neither the 1 expected pulse nor the 1 errant pulse) that implies that both pulses rely on the score motor 2C switch being closed. But if you can block the player unit P1C switch and get 1 pulse (instead of 2) to the player unit, that implies that one pulse relies on the P1C switch being closed and the other doesn't. Taken together that sounds like one pulse relies on both the score motor 2C and player unit P1C switches being closed but looking at the schematic I don't see how that's possible unless there's a short somewhere. That's why I wonder if blocking score motor 2C blocks one but not both pulses.

    This may be a good situation to use the light bulb tester described by @stevefury elsewhere here on pinside. It might help identify which paths the two pulses rely on. With any luck you'll find places in the circuit where there's just one pulse which should help isolate where the 2nd pulse is coming from.
    Jumping Jack Add Player unit bulb test (resized).jpg
    Clip one lead of the bulb tester to the Add Player Unit solenoid solder lug with the black wire. Then clip the other lead to various points in the circuit (including those with red arrows) to see how many flashes each point yields.

    1 week later
    #19 65 days ago

    Hi northstar-, MarkG
    time is running - late I am writing. I would like to try "chasing the faulty behaviour in a Two-Player game - not stepping from Player-1 to Player-2 - actually faulty stepping a step too much" - I would like to learn about the synchronuos actuating of "running motor rhythmically closes Switch SCM-1A" AND "Player-Unit in the Backbox is stepped" - write if You also want to dig-in into closing SCM-1A AND stepping the Player-Unit (One-Player-Game and Two-Player-Game).
    See the first JPG - I believe this is the stepping in a ONE-Player-Game. See the second JPG - the position of the Player-Unit when Player-1 plays Ball-1. Greetings Rolf

    0Jumping-Jack-Work-09 (resized).jpg0Jumping-Jack-from-Top-Score (resized).jpg
    #20 64 days ago
    Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

    write if You also want to dig-in into closing SCM-1A AND stepping the Player-Unit (One-Player-Game and Two-Player-Game).

    I'd like to understand this circuit better than I do and Rolf's drawings got me studying it some more. I think I agree with Rolf and want to elaborate or clarify. There are basically three paths that provide pulses to advance the Player Unit as shown above and that I'll redraw below. Which path is used for any given situation is determined by the Player Unit cam switches and by the PB/Second Player relay switch.

    In a one player game the Player Unit gets 4 pulses when the ball drains to step the Player Unit 4 times. In a two player game, when Player 1 drains just 1 pulse is delivered, then when Player 2 drains the remaining 3 pulses are delivered.

    Path 1 to the Player Unit is through the Score Motor 2C switch. This path delivers the first pulse any time the ball drains:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 1st path (resized).jpg

    Path 2 goes through the PB/2nd Player relay switch:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 3rd path (resized).jpg

    And Path 3 bypasses the PB/Second Player relay switch:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 2nd path (resized).jpg

    The significant difference between the paths 2 and 3 is the PB/2nd Player relay switch. That switch opens on a 2 player game effectively disabling path 2.

    So the generic sequence any time a ball drains is:
    - get one Player Unit pulse through the Score Motor 2C switch (path 1)
    - if it's a 1 player game get a pulse through the PB relay switch (path 2)
    - if the Player Unit has taken two steps (received two pulses) get two more pulses through path 3

    On a 1 player game that's pretty straightforward. All three of the steps in the sequence are taken and all three paths are used to get 4 pulses each time the ball drains:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 1P pulses (resized).jpg
    Things are much more interesting on a 2 player game. When player 1 drains, one pulse goes through path 1 and advances the Player Unit one step, which closes the P1C switch and (I think) toggles the P2A Make/Break switch to select path 2. Since path 2 is disabled on a 2 player game no more pulses are generated and the Player Unit stays where it is, one step past it's home position. When player 2 drains another pulse goes through path 1 and advances the Player Unit, which leaves the P1C switch closed but again toggles the Make/Break P2A switch effectively selecting path 3. Since path 3 doesn't care about the PB relay switch, the next two pulses advance the Player Unit until the P1C switch opens.
    Jumping Jack Player Unit 2P pulses (resized).jpg
    If this is all true then I'm a little confused about the P1C and P2A switches. The cam diagrams seem to show that the P1C switch should close one step before the P2A Make/Break switch changes state. But for this scenario to work both would have to change after the 1st Player Unit pulse to use path 2 through the PB/2nd Player relay switch. So perhaps the cams in Jumping Jack are different than the cams in Top Score (which are shown above), or else I'm missing something.

    /Mark

    #21 64 days ago

    First off I am Thankful for your guys determination in this issue !,like myself trying to figure
    out this circuit and the problem with the extra pulse on a 2 player game.
    I read a lot on the player unit watch all the videos and tried the test light,also tracked down the wiring with this circuit and didn't find a damn thing!

    Want to thank Rolf Martin for joining in on the topic and his input.
    Mark your right on with the pulses as said in the beginning of your post (#20)

    Just cant figure out why I block motor 2C middle switch the game will pulse right??
    This seems like it would be some kind of clue to the problem?

    The P1 cam starts out on the high spot on the cam( player 1) when player 1 drains player unit pulses once which in turn takes it off the high part of the cam.
    Than this puts P2 on the high spot of that cam.(2nd player) once player 2 drains the player unit then pulses 3 times and puts back to P1 high spot on the cam witch in term opens and closes the switches on the Player Unit for P1 and P2
    I know when the trough switch is active it starts the sequence to the player unit, and actives the P relay.

    One thing I tried was put the test light on P2A player 1 make/break switch WH-BL and the bulb lit then when player 2 was up move the jumper to the other leaf WH-GR and no light. (GR jumper in the middle) maybe this helps?

    This is from the JJ Manual and hope it helps.

    Jumping Jack Start Up Seq (resized).jpgScan_0001 (resized).jpgScan_0002 (resized).jpg

    #22 63 days ago

    I had to draw it out to see how the cam switches work. At the risk of beating a dead horse, here's another way of looking at the circuit:
    Jumping Jack Player Unit cams (resized).jpg
    So the sequence for a 1 player game is:
    - Player Unit cams start in Position 1, then the ball drains
    - 1st Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored
    - 2nd Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 1
    - cams move to Position 2, P1C switch closes, P2A switch changes to select Path 2
    - 3rd Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 2
    - cams move to Position 3, P1C switch remains closed, P2A switch changes to select Path 3
    - 4th Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 3
    - cams move to position 4, no change in switches
    - 5th Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 3
    - cams move to position 5, P1C switch opens, ready for next ball

    And the sequence for a 2 player game is:
    - Player Unit cams start in Position 1, then Player 1's ball drains
    - 1st Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored
    - 2nd Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 1
    - cams move to Position 2, P1C switch closes, P2A switch changes to select Path 2
    - Path 2 is disabled since the PB/2nd Player relay switch is open
    - 3rd, 4th & 5th Score Motor 1A pulses are ignored since the Player Unit is in Position 2 and the PB relay switch is open
    - Player Unit remains in Position 2, Player 2's ball is served

    - Player 2 drains
    - 1st Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored
    - 2nd Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 1
    - cams move to Position 3, P1C switch remains closed, P2A switch changes to select Path 3
    - 3rd Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 3
    - cams move to Position 4, no change in switches
    - 4th Score Motor 1A pulse advances the Player Unit through Path 3
    - cams move to position 5, P1C switch opens
    - 5th Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored, Player 1's ball is served

    Extra credit for anyone still reading this...

    #23 63 days ago

    Hi MarkG, northstar-
    Yes, Yes - I am still reading this --- but, I did part of laundry - I have to do the rest also, have to eat dinner - some rest and then go to sleep This is the last post for today. Greetings Rolf

    #24 62 days ago

    Hi MarkG
    thanks for post-22 - You should post +/- Title: "Stepping the Player-Unit in a Gottlieb-TWO-Player-Pin" here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-pinball-circuits-basics-to-not-so-basic --- do not get angry, I add some words to Your post-22:
    You should make an arrow "direction of rotation" - in Your JPG it is counterclockwise - other than what we see when we look into the backbox.
    Enumerate the pathes by Path-A, Path-B, Path-C (?).
    The Player-Unit positions are not Gottlieb standard - when Player-1 plays Ball-1 the PU is in (Homeposition is ) PU-Pos-Zero - when Player-2 plays Ball-1 it is PU-Pos-1 and so on.
    ((("First Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored" replace by +/- "First Score Motor 1A pulse cannot let current to reach the PU-Coil as other switches hinder")))
    (((towards "bottom of JPG" teeth on the drawing of the cams are missing)))
    (((The last sentence in Your description "5th Score Motor 1A pulse is ignored, Player 1's ball is served" replace by +/- "5th Score Motor 1A pulse cannot let current to reach the PU-Coil as other switches hinder")))
    My writing (above) is most of all to show "have studied post-22". Greetings Rolf

    #25 62 days ago

    Hi northstar-
    I had an idea - but wanted to first try out the idea myself in my Far Out. I did try and the result is: "Not practicable". The idea was "a friend closes the Ball Trough Switch - looks at the turning motor and says "now" - "now" -"now" -"now" -"now" as he sees the motor actuating switchstack 1A on the motor - At the same time I (You) stand at the Backbox and look at the Player-Unit - NO stepping (?) on the first "now" --- then according to MarkG (post-22) matching "now" and "stepping" - doing a ONE-Player-Game - then a TWO Player-Game but with the manipulation (see beginning of Your post-10) - then truely a TWO-Player-Game (makes the fault to show up) --- always matching "now" and "stepping" (very rhythmically ?) --- then reporting about the combinations / rhythms Your pin shows (nows and steppings).

    WELL - I looked at the turning motor in my Far Out - it turns too fast for me to give "good / precise" "now"s --- but
    please ask a friend to close the Ball Trough Switch and You watch the Player-Unit in the "fault happens situation" --- is there a gap in time between the first stepping and then the faulty second stepping ? - a short gap ? a long gap ?
    A weird hypothesis - see the bottom of the JPG in post-19 - closing of motor-4A and motor-4C happens very late according to the Motor Sequence Chart (((This closing is meant for actuating the LB and XB relays - but we are chasing a fault ...))). Greetings Rolf

    #26 62 days ago
    Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

    A weird hypothesis - see the bottom of the JPG in post-19 - closing of motor-4A and motor-4C happens very late according to the Motor Sequence Chart (((This closing is meant for actuating the LB and XB relays - but we are chasing a fault ...)))

    Agreed. See reply 11.

    #27 62 days ago

    Thanks rolf martin,
    Glade to see that you recognize there still is a problem with the game.
    I will give it a try and let you know the results.
    Still don't recognize why blocking motor 4C lets the player unit work properly?
    This is tie in with path 3? (motor chart LB relay)
    Check the wiring ,one thing I notice is the WH-GR wire Player 2 is used under the PF to switches and the B relay (pop bumper)??

    #28 61 days ago
    Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

    I looked at the turning motor in my Far Out - it turns too fast for me to give "good / precise" "now"s --- but
    please ask a friend to close the Ball Trough Switch and You watch the Player-Unit in the "fault happens situation" --- is there a gap in time between the first stepping and then the faulty second stepping ? - a short gap ? a long gap ?

    The Score Motor may turn to fast to see what's happening, but what if you were to slow it down? Here's an idea that might provide the same timing information. Only try this if you know what you're doing and are comfortable working on the game with the power on.

    Start a new two player game and add a few points to player 1. Then remove the ball, lift the playfield and block the O/Outhole relay switch in the red box with a piece of paper:
    Jumping Jack Score Motor (resized).jpg
    Then manually close the outhole switch with a stick or something with an insulated handle. That should start the Score Motor for the bonus count procedure and fire the E, F and maybe some other relays. Once that's done the score motor will stop before kicking out the ball because you've blocked the O relay switch. Then put another piece of paper in the Score Motor 1C switch (also in the red box) which usually keeps the motor turning unit it reaches the next home position.

    At this point I think you will have frozen the game just before it wants to advance the Player Unit and all the relevant relays and steppers should be in their appropriate positions. Slowly turn the score motor by hand 120 degrees to the next home position (*). If you're lucky you'll get two (probably slow, loud) pulses to the Add Player Unit. Repeat the process from the beginning a few times to see if you can tell when the two pulses are happening. One should happen when the Score Motor 2C switch stack activates. When the other happens is what we're trying to figure out.

    (*) The Score Motor home position is where the 1C switch stack falls into a trough on the top score motor cam, opening the switch you blocked with paper.

    #29 61 days ago

    Thanks Mark,
    I'll willing to try any suggestions!
    On the go for now so I will not be able to look at the game today.
    Maybe Fri. as soon as I try everything I'll get back to you.
    Thanks Again for the help and hopefully will nail it down!

    #30 61 days ago

    Hi northstar-
    (post-27) "Why does blocking motor 4C lets the Player-Unit work properly ?" - Most likely because You block the faulty path that does "friendly fire" into the feature "Stepping up the Player Unit".

    (Smile) MarkG and me were in the last posts talking theory - How does a running Gottlieb TWO-Player-Pin does the stepping in the games ...

    (Smile) MarkG (post-28) as me - we are on the "timing" - my original idea does not work (a friend says now, now, now, now, now as he see the motor 1A close in a turn of 120 degrees of the motor) - I like the idea - an improvement You see in the first JPG: You clip-on a looooong Jumper-Wire at the coil on the 10'000 Score-Drum of Player-1 --- the other end comes out of the pin, not touching metal. You clip-on a second Jumper-Wire at the Switch on E-Relay etc. Just before You come to the (faulty) stepping on Player-Unit: You make connection "my blue arrows". Then You have a "metronome" making five times toc, toc, toc, toc, toc - the Score-Drums steps - You hear it stepping and You look at the Player-Unit. You get (faulty situation) the Player-Unit stepped at the second "toc" - AND on the third or fouth or fifth "toc" ? Please report.

    You may not want to do the metronome-stuff (?) --- from Your description a made a "red wiring, friendly fire) - means inspecting switch P2A and P1C. Greetings Rolf
    P.S.: I really would like to learn about the timing of this friendly fire - just after the first stepping or very late - a pause inbetween or what ?

    0Jumping-Jack-Work-16 (resized).jpg0Jumping-Jack-Work-17 (resized).jpg
    #31 61 days ago

    Thanks rolf_martin,
    For reference of the problem check post #11 ,#12 just making sure because on the drawing you have mark 1 player game.
    I have the three post printed out and will get back to you and Mark G with the results.
    Thanks again, for the input, will get back to you in a few days. (#25 #28 #30)

    #32 59 days ago

    Wanted to keep things rolling but unfortunately the game is in a garage.
    Looked at the game today but these games don't like cold temperatures

    So the game went backwards and I got no pulse to the player unit.
    Game reset and ball 1 came up scored points, but would not advance to next ball. (1 player or 2)
    Had check relays P,O, XB, P5A&B,P2A,P1C ,and motor position 1 stack. (switches)
    Engage trough switch and P relay then O relay pulls in then releasing but no pulse.
    Cold solder joint. I'll check it out and get back.

    #33 58 days ago

    Hi northstar-
    this post is only about troubles "post-32" - the P-Relay and the O-Relay pull in. Questions: At that time does the motor run ? Do P-Relay and O-Relay stay pulling until the motor finishes the turn of 120 degrees (a third of an revolution) ? DID You make some points on Player-1-Ball-1 ? Means: Did the ZB-Relay in the Control-Bank "plunge" ? How about the Outhole-Kicker - did it fire ? Greetings Rolf

    #34 58 days ago

    Got the game where it was, it was the motor2C switch I cleaned and adjusted took care of the problem pulsing the player unit for next ball.
    Just wanted to get the game where we left off before I tried Mark and your suggestions.

    Come on now, P relay than O relay pull in for a moment and than the outhole kicker is activate,while this is going on the score motor is turning 120 deg. first ball relay pulls in and stays in until the bank is reset,than when you shoot the ball it engages when a point is made and stays in..

    Tried your suggestion by hooking up a jumper to the first 10K unit to the switch on the E relay ORG-BLU spade and connect just before it comes to faulty stepping on the PU. No Metronome occurred No toc.
    I guess you meant when player1 ball drains and player2 is up?
    Did hook up a test light and it seem like it pulse when the outhole coil was energized and then when the motor all most stop. (forth or fifth)

    Tried Marks suggestion and That as well did not pulse the Player Unit or make a sound.
    Every thing worked out put points on blocked the o relay M/B switch no kickout E andF relay fired motor stop than placed blue tape in between the home switch 3C and than turn the motor slowly and no sound or pulse.

    The problem as describe in post#11 is what is wrong. when blocking P1C switch when player 2 is up game delivers 1 pulse than block has to be removed before P1C engages or player unit will not pulse to players2 ball. (3pulses)

    With the test light after player 1 ball the other spade of motor 2C BLU-WH-RED has power as well as the other Spade, WH-GR does not seem to light.
    Hook up the light on SL+WH wire and got two pulses when ball drains.
    Motor switch 4C outside switch and 4C middle switch spades are tied toghter and have power. (bulb lit)

    #35 57 days ago

    Hi northstar-
    good - You got the game where it was. So we are on the original problem. Before Your post-32 came in I was writing on a fresh idea. Please accept I do not (by now) discuss post -32, -33, -34 --- I would like to talk about the fresh idea. See here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ to http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair to http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair#Gottlieb.C2.AE_Score_Motor : Read, especially 4.4.1.4 - the last two sentences --- switch dog positions must not be changed - if You suspect ... --- well, my fresh idea is: Have been changed - must be checked / changed back (?).

    I never had to work on these short / long positions - I just read pinwiki. Look at my JPG - motor-2C is marked as being in "Long position" - look at Your Score-Motor - see this "L" position ? See that motor-3C in Your pin is "Short position" ? AND NOW in Your pin motor-4A - short or long ? Also motor-1A - short or long ? (Also motor-4C - short or long ?)
    When You have motor-1A, -1C, -3C, -4A, -4C in "short" and -2C in "long" - does the pin no longer has "the problem" ?

    The theory to my fresh idea: I believe ALL Gottlieb Two-Player-Pins at these years had the problem of "maybe friendly fire" --- see the lower half of my JPG - TWO-Player-Game, End of Player-1-Ball-1, switches I drew as positioned, "P-Relay is pulling, motor is running, first closing of SCM-1A has been done (no effect), second closing of motor-1A has been done - (with the help of closing motor-2C ) Player-Unit has been stepped.
    Questions
    - motor-1A closing the third time - can current flow to the Add-Player-Unit-Coil through my "Wiring-WH-BL ? Answer is "No" - upper part of "P2A" is open.
    - motor-1A closing the third time - can current flow to the Add-Player-Unit-Coil through my "Wiring-WH-GR-Alpha ? Answer is "No" - switch "PB" is open (Two-Player-Game).
    - motor-1A closing the third time - can current flow to the Add-Player-Unit-Coil through my "Wiring-WH-GR-Beta ? Answer is "No" - motor-4C is open (at this time open for sure).

    The motor is turning further - we come to fourth closing of motor-1A - same questions - SAME answers.
    The motor is turning further - we come to the fifth closing of motor-1A - hey, motor-4A and motor-4C are closing just before the fifth closing of motor-1A - when faulty "short / long" positions --- maybe "friendly fire" (?). Greetings Rolf

    0Jumping-Jack-Work-18 (resized).jpg
    #36 57 days ago

    Thanks for the reply the switch dog positions are the way you describe them.
    I think you might be on the right track with some timing issue?
    I'll check out the PinWiki pieces you sent.

    Thanks again, for your time.

    #37 57 days ago

    Hi northstar-
    it is nice that the switchdog positions are "as should / must". Unfortunately we (still) have the original problem. I allow myself an "cheeky / impertinent" thesis: Switch motor-4A is faulty always closed - acts like a wire - (and yes, motor-4C works correct) - the "shot of electricity through SCM-4C and then through SCM-4A is only controlled by duration of closed SCM-4C - faulty not controlled by SCM4C plus SCM-4A closed - so "SCM-4C and SCM-1A closing" work about the same as "SCM-2C and SCM-1A closing).
    You can test my cheeky theory - see the JPG in post-35 - upper Test-Light - it is mounted "parallel" with the step-coil on the Player-Unit. As long in time the coil gets current - as long in time the Test-Light lights up. See the lower part of the JPG - Test-Light clipped-on after motor-4A (maybe it is easyer to clip-on at the Switch on P-Relay). This (lower part) Test-Light should light up only a very short period of time - see the motor Sequence Chart in the JPG - ONLY when motor-4C AND motor-4A are both closed. (My cheeky theory is: Duration of "lights up" is much longer - as long as SCM-4C is closed)

    Inspect motor-4A - drop of solder fallen at the solder-lugs ? doghair crap of wire there ? one of the studs with the solderpoint bent - touching the other solder-lug ? Then test my cheeky theory. Greetings Rolf

    #38 57 days ago

    Hi northstar-
    of course, when You look at switch motor-4A: Also look at the switchblades / contactpoints - truely open when switch is open - when motor is not running - when motor is in its home position - when motor is at rest. Tomorrow will be a busy day - (this is my last post for today) - I go to sleep - greetings Rolf

    #39 56 days ago

    The other point is when I block P1C before player1 ball drains which the sw is open at this point,
    then player 1 ball drains and I get one pulse to the player unit for player 2 which is correct.
    This is on the same line as if I where to block SM4C
    Some kind of short with the PU disk or something on this line?
    Adjusting 4C to make less make to close the circuit faster? or adjusting the player unit switches? (a timing issue)

    When the ball rolls over the trough sw player 2 lights up and then the outhole kicker pulls in again and that's when the second pulse happens.
    I had a question about the two wipers shown when do they move onto the rivets? (8,9,16,17) is it on Ball 5 ?

    #40 56 days ago

    Hi northstar-
    answering Your post-39 "bottom up": Wipers and rivets - see the JPG - on bottom-left: I added stuff from the schematics - when PU is in pos-8, -9, -16, -17 current shall flow towards left to maybe actuate LB- maybe actuate XB-Relay. Look at the second JPG in post-19 - on the steel ratchet I count 30 teeth - so the unit has many positions to be in. Gottlieb-Definition: We start a new game (so it is a One-Player-Game) - reset of the Score-Drums is done and the PU does some stepping. When the (first) ball is kicked out - the pin is ready for Player-1 to launch Ball-1 - but we toggle-off / unplug the main power cord. This position the PU is in: Gottlieb calls it Position-Zero - also calls it Home-Position. When we (in mind) do one step we then reach position-1 is Player-2-Ball-1 - another step to position-2 is Player-3-Ball-1 - another step to position-3 is Player-4-Ball-1 - another step to position-4 is Player-1-Ball-2 etc. In a TWO-Player-pin there is no third player - there is no fourth player - BUT the stepping is there --- "Pos-8" - in a three-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-1, "Pos-9" - in a three-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-2. "Pos-16" - in a five-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-1 - "Pos-17" - in a five-ball-per-game play it is the last ball for player-2.

    post-39 "When the ball rolls ..." the big question is "exactly when - what time" - see later on.
    post-39 "Adjusting 4C ..." - I was hoping for faulty set switchdogs - adjusting.
    post-39 "some kind of short with the PU --- not likely.
    top of post-39: Most likely we have an fault in the Wiring-WH-GR-Beta and manipulating a switch to be always open will stop the fault --- it doesn't matter which switch we manipulate - open is open.

    To the "problem" - see the JPG, upper left: The well known "Motor Sequence Chart" - then the chart again but I drew a red line upwards - the time when (in a running pin) motor-4A AND motor-4C are closed - thickness of my red line is duration of BOTH closing. To the right, up: magnified. To the right, below: I believe motor-4A is faulty closed, acts as a connecting wire --- the closing of motor-4C matches "beautyful, hmm, grumble" with the closing of motor-1A - fault happens.
    I really would like to know --- prove my cheeky theory (post-37) right or prove it wrong -
    SteveFury shoes a Test-Light - made by two 12Volt car-bulbs --- one put behind the other so it is summed up to 24Volts: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 --- what do You see (Test-Lights) when You let drain in a Two-Player-Game - let drain Player-1-Ball-1. Greetings Rolf
    P.S.: Assuming is O.K. - but proved right (or proved wrong) is better.

    0Jumping-Jack-Work-19 (resized).jpg
    #41 56 days ago

    Hello Rolf, thanks for the input.
    I'll try the light and get back to you on the results.

    The 1st pulse happens right away and lights up player 2 score reel lights and towards the end of the motor revolution is
    when the second pulse happens. Not real short, more like tic pause then tok. (you ask in post #25 length between pulses)
    Check WH-GR from PB sw. to P sw. to P2A look good
    Have to check connections to player unit disk rivet 8 and 16
    Thank you again for your time and suggestions. ***BILL

    #42 55 days ago

    Hi Bill
    maybe You remember - I once tried "looking at the turning motor in my Far Out saying now, now, now, now, now when I see motor-1A actuating" --- it was too fast for me ...
    So (post-41) "first pulse happens right away ..." maybe - maybe not. In post-30, first JPG I suggested a "metronome" to hear --- well, look here the JPG - toggle off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - then establish permanent this Test-Light. The clip-on point (my blue star, wire black) : You can clip-on at the solderlug (wire-black) on the coil on the "Add first 10'000s Unit" - or You can clip-on on another coil (side wire-black) - it doesnt matter - wire-black in the pin is wire-black - abundant - simply wire black hops from one coil to the next coil - to next, next, next --- always wire black.
    Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - EVERY time the motor makes a turn of 120 degrees: You see this Test-Light light-up five times - it is somehow an "optical metronome".
    Also mount permanent the other two Test-Lights (post-40). Don't pay attention to the Test-Lights when You start a new Two-Player-Game - play Player-1-Ball-1 ( make some points) - then You watch the three Test-Lights while a friend let drain Player-1-Ball-1. On the "optical metronome" You will see "rhythmically lighting up five times". The lower Test-Light in the JPG in post-40 should flash-up between the fourth and the fifth lighting-up of the "optical metronome".
    The upper Test-Light in the JPG in post-40 should light-up together with the second lighting up of the optical metronome. And then it does faulty light up a second time. Please write about the three Test-Lights.

    Your "check WH-GR ...": I believe the wiring is good - I believe the motor-switch-4A is faulty always closed. By now do not bother about the wirings to PU-8, -9, -15, -16. Greetings Rolf

    0Jumping-Jack-Work-20 (resized).jpg
    #43 55 days ago

    Set up the light parallel to the player unit no light when pulses any player.
    Set up test light but had it on the GR-OR side of the coil which was incorrect from the P relay.
    If ground is blk why connect to backbox?

    Here's what's Happening player 1 ball drains when outhole coil actuates and 1st pulse happens then when the ball rolls over the trough switch
    outhole coil actuates and the 2nd pulse occurs. (2 player game)

    I think this could be the problem the Outhole switches or the Trough switch circuity.

    I'll have to hook up the light to ground and give you the results

    **************BILL

    #44 54 days ago

    Hi Bill
    I go through Your post-43 sentence by sentence - write comments and some theory.

    post-43 - Set up the light parallel to the Player-Unit - no light when pulses any Player. We must have functioning Test-Lights - see the JPG "What ever Coil": When we hook-on the Test-Light parallel to the Coil - the Test-Light MUST light up every time the Coil gets current and pulls --- if the Test-Light does not light up: Check its wiring and the bulbs. See in the JPG "SteveFury-Test-Light: He made it quick and dirty - he has put the metal outsides of the two bulbs together and has run an tape all around - connected. In the JPG I drew a short line - connectid. And the two wires of the Test-Light are soldered-on on the tips of the bulbs.

    post-43 - Set up the test light but had it ... It confuses me when You write about faults You made but have seen this fault made.

    post-43 - If ground is blk why connect to backbox. I do not understand this sentence. My interpretation is "when I have to clip-on one side of a Test-Light - clip-on at wire-blk - why must I clip-on at wire-blk - physically wire-blk in the backbox ?" See the JPG - in the schematics the "AA" is drawn near "BB" - but the Ball-Return-Coil is on the playfield - while the LB- and XB-Relays sit in the Control-Bank in the Ccabinet - far apart - definitely not wired in the pin as shown in the schematics. Alike the situation with "CC", "DD, "EE" - in the schematics stuff is shown side by side - but in reality in the pin the stuff is cabinet, playfield, backbox being far apart.
    Quite logical is clipping on like "What ever Coil" --- When clipping on onto wire-blk in another test: Clip-on at wire-blk where it is convenient for You.

    post-43 - Here's what happening ... pulse occurs (2 player game). See in the JPG the "Motor Sequence Chart" - Switch-motor-1A pulses, actuates five times per turn of 120 degrees. This is done so quickly we cannot look at the turning motor to figure out on what of the five pulses the Player-Unit actually steps (((in post-41 You write: The 1st pulse (I assume Player-Unit steps) happens right away and this means "on the FIRST pulse of motor-1A" - FIRST pulse is completely wrong - we'd have to dig in into this --- I believe / hope: First actuating of Player-Unit happens on second pulse on motor-1A.
    I must have solid ground - I need three Test-Lights - see the JPG, blue: The "optical metronome" lighting up five times per turn of 120 degrees - then the "Add Player-Unit Test-Light" for "when does the Player-Unit actually steps" - then the "switches-motor-4C, -4A Test-Light" to learn about the timing / duration of this single pulse of closing -4C and -4A. When I can read Your report on "These three Test-Lights act ... when stepping from Player-1-Ball-1 towards (but the fault happens)" - then I can suggest another specific test.

    Sidenote: For a long time I thought that my Orbit has a fault --- the Outhole-Kicker always fired twice. It did not really bothered me as the pin was functioning. Then I was studying the schematics and realized: The O-(Outhole)-Ball-Return-Relay was actuated twice and the reason for this: See https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1724&picno=19272 - the circle of lights in the center of the picture - for every new ball it had to be stepped forward to its Zero-Position - sometimes ony 1 or 2 steps - sometimes 7,8,9 steps. This stepping forward is triggered / done by the pulling-in of O-Relay - and a turn of the motor --- a turn of the motor can make up to five steps - to sometimes do the 7,8,9 steps: Gottlieb simply made the O-Relay pull-in twice ...
    (((We may look later at the question "Why does in 'Jack in the Box' the O-Relay pull-in twice"))) Greetings Rolf

    0Jumping-Jack-Work-21 (resized).jpg
    #45 54 days ago

    You see the computer is not at the same location as the game.
    That's why I try to respond as quick as I can.
    The test light going from the P switch to the add player unit was hook up wrong so I could not give you the results.
    I had it on the other side of the coil OR-GR wire not the BLK
    I was thinking of post # 30 connections.

    MY light is a little different than Steve's I use a #44 bulb with a 75 ohm resistor.

    I am going to look at the game now thank you ********BILL

    #46 54 days ago

    This is quite Amazing 45 Posts and still having the Problem! Where no one else seems to have any comments or input or maybe just doesn't have the knowledge on this circuit.
    Thanks to Mark G and rolf_martin_652 I don't no what to think?

    I don't know where you are going with this?
    Connected blue light and pulses with scoring 5 times or 4?
    When player 1 ball drains I get one pulse on the 2nd step and one on the 5th step.
    Put light from P sw. to PU and had no pulses.

    Put light across PU coil and NOTHING NOT EVEN A GLOW!

    Did the same across the outhole relay and a very very dim pulse when actuate just wanted to see if it lights across the flipper coil yea no problem plenty of light. if you put the light in series you probable would get a better reading
    #13 post #21

    #47 53 days ago

    Hi fellow pinsiders
    what is / are Your opinion / thoughts on behalf of "beginning of post-46" ?

    Hi Bill
    K-Mart and such stores - automobile department, car electrics, 12Volt car bulbs - some SteveFury-Test-Lights as everybody uses - to eliminate possible problems on "Test-Lights" (?).

    Since quite a while I have an working hypothesis*** to be proven right or wrong - then maybe further tests or some brooding over the schematics - new hypothesis.
    The working hypothesis*** is - see JPG in post-44, Motor Sequence Charts: Switch-motor-4A is faulty - is faulty permanent closed (blades, contact-points) - acts as an connecting wire - the shot controlled by motor-switch-4C and motor-switch-4A is (faulty) only controlled by motor-switch-4C.
    Pros of this Hypothesis***: What we have so far as Test-Results matches with the Hypothesis.
    Cons: You manually made this switch (motor-4A) several times "always open" - so You had looked at this switch several times - You should have seen when this switch is faulty always closed ...

    I refer to my post-44 "I must have solid ground ..." - three Test-Lights and an complete description - You give results in post-46:
    "Blue light (is my optical metronome)" lights up five times when the motor makes a turn of 120 degrees - correct, wanted.
    "In a Two-Player-Game when Player-1-Ball-1 drains: The first stepping on the Player-Unit is at the time when the optical metronome shows 'second closing' " - correct, wanted.
    Good observation "The faulty, not wanted second stepping on the Player-Unit is when the optical metronome shows 'fifth closing' " - this supports my Hypothesis***.

    Missing is the information "What is the Test-Light (motor-4C / -4A) doing in this turn of the motor when the stepping on the Player-Unit happens --- just a very short flash between optical-metronome four and five (this is wanted) ? Or: Starting a bit before the optical-metronome-five - and then stays lit as long as optical-metronome-five happens (this is faulty) ?

    Your end of post-46 - problems with the Test-Light: Again, make You some SteveFury Test-Lights. Greetings Rolf
    P.S.: A Test-Light simply hooked on parallel on an coil: The Test-Light only lights up when the coil gets current and pulls.

    #48 52 days ago

    Hello rolf_martin,
    I made up the test light like you said and check the ohms reading like 1.0 ohms
    Big Difference much lower than 75 ohms. this should give me the results we are looking for.
    Since I was getting a reading off the light I thought it was ok. but the light does not work on slight pulses like using it across a coil with a pulse
    applied to the coil.
    I'll try it out tomorrow Sat.
    **********BILL

    #49 51 days ago

    Connect light to P sw. WH-OR to BLK on the player unit got 1 pulse on step 5
    Put test light on the PB WH-GR Leaf and ground on the reset bank and lit up when on 1st player.
    Across the Player Unit Coil 2 Pulses 4th and 5th step, short pulses very faint light
    Put light to motor 1A BRN-WH-RED and got the same 2 pulses as putting the test light across the PU coil.

    Another thing I tried was put the light to M2C sw. on the BL-WH-RED leaf and the light stayed lit when player 2 was up.
    WH-BL leaf had power as well.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>BILL

    #50 50 days ago

    Hi Bill
    today is my Birthday - I was and am doing other than Pinball stuff. I will answer Your post-49 by tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

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