(Topic ID: 216696)

EM Tech: 69 Bally Gator 4 player game issue

By TheCnyPinGuy

5 years ago


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#1 5 years ago

Hi

Still digging along with my new game and now that my Backbox lights work I can see what is happening

I did find a schematic and it’s on its way BUT I have a really weird issue and wondered if this could be an easy adjustment or heavy issue

Here is what the game does

Plug game in

Hit left flipper - hold relay - GI on field and back box

Game Over lamp is lit

If I hit the start button once

the reels reset to 00000 ball in shooter lane - game scores fine

1 lamp is on indicating a 1 player game And the 1up player area is lit (player score area)

Now for the issue

After ball 1 drains instead of going to ball 2 player 1. The game advances next player ...

Essentially The game acts like it’s a 4 player game

any thoughts ?

Seems like its stuck playing all 4 player game but assembly Works and cycles through all players

Plays a 4 player game / 3 ball game perfectly lol

Once all 4 players went through 3 balls

Game returns to Game Over as normal

Thanks for your time

#2 5 years ago

I'll need to see a high quality scan of the schematic from e.g. Staples ($2) or Kinkos ($6)

#3 5 years ago

It sounds like the coin unit is not resetting. Try to manually reset the coin unit. Also, check the circuit switches that send power to the coin unit reset solenoid...

Coin unit zero switch - brown/yellow wire and jumper wire
Start trip relay switch - yellow wire and brown/yellow wire

Make sure these switches are clean and adjusted properly...

#4 5 years ago

I have a schematic on its way

This is posted on IPDB - Pretty Solid Example

http://www.ipdb.org/files/987/Bally_1969_Gator_Schematic_Diagram_Continuous.pdf

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from TheCnyPinGuy:

After ball 1 drains instead of going to ball 2 player 1. The game advances next player ...
Essentially The game acts like it’s a 4 player game

If the Player Reset relay isn't activating when this happens, diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png

#6 5 years ago

Okay pulled the field out to service and noted a sore thumb

Please see pictures

I have a green red white that looks totally random soldered across the bank to the #5 M.B. Relay

Prolly unrelated but never seen this

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#7 5 years ago
Quoted from TheCnyPinGuy:

I have a green red white that looks totally random soldered across the bank to the #5 M.B. Relay
Prolly unrelated but never seen this

Someone's been having a little unsupervised fun with the rules of your game...

But first, this is interesting because the #5 M.B. and #4 M.B. relays in your photos (as well as the #1 M.B. and #3 M.B. relays in the schematic) each have two coils and three solder lugs, just like flipper coils do. I've not see that before. Can anyone elaborate on what these are and how they're used?
Bally Gator relay 5 (resized).jpgBally Gator relay 5 (resized).jpg
Back to your green-red wire. The schematic shows the orange and white-blue wires you have on the #5 M.B. relay as well as the jumper to its own normally closed (NC) switch. It does not show the green-red wire, or the brown jumper to somewhere on the #4 M.B. relay. Those look like hacks someone added perhaps to change the rules. If you can trace the green-red wire it would help figure out where it comes from and where it should really go to instead of the #5 M.B. relay. The alternative is to find all of the green-red wires (42-?) in the schematic and see which one is missing.

/Mark

#8 5 years ago

Hi
MarkG --- I also had a look at the schematics --- Bally now and then did some funny things (remember "Delay-Relay, motorized Trip-Bank, resistor on (Tilt- ) Hold-Relay").
Me guessing: Two coils with "Hold-Functionality" instead of mounting a relay to trip in a relay-bank ? Greetings Rolf

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from MarkG:

But first, this is interesting because the #5 M.B. and #4 M.B. relays in your photos (as well as the #1 M.B. and #3 M.B. relays in the schematic) each have two coils and three solder lugs, just like flipper coils do. I've not see that before. Can anyone elaborate on what these are and how they're used?

It looks like they needed a fast-acting coil because switches like #4 wouldn't necessarily stay closed very long. Then once on, the relay coil would run too hot on just that 18-ohm winding, so the rest of the coil is cut in.
.................David Marston

#10 5 years ago

Wire leads to the top left bumper (thumper bumper)

See pic please

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#11 5 years ago
Quoted from dmarston:

It looks like they needed a fast-acting coil because switches like #4 wouldn't necessarily stay closed very long. Then once on, the relay coil would run too hot on just that 18-ohm winding, so the rest of the coil is cut in.

Fast acting, or higher strength? Initially the 18 ohm winding would make the relay much stronger (much like a flipper coil) until the relay fires. I wonder if maybe the dual winding relays have more switches to throw than the other relays and therefore need to be stronger, at least initially?

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from TheCnyPinGuy:

Wire leads to the top left bumper (thumper bumper)

Wow, dual windings on the pop bumper solenoids too...

The wire colors in the photo look more like the wire colors on the right thumper bumper in the schematic:
Bally Gator right thumper bumper (resized).jpgBally Gator right thumper bumper (resized).jpg
Could these be what's in the photo? Does either thumper bumper fire the #5 M.B relay?

#13 5 years ago

Hi

I can follow up later on

I didn’t know any issues with game play to my knowledge ..

Just noticed the game plays a 4 player regardless .. pulled out the mech panel and that wire was just there

Will follow up when I get the game back together to test

Thanks for the tips

#14 5 years ago

While I am not by the machine

I have found several pictures of the mech panel on Gator or Alligtaor

Neither have this mystery wire

I’ll be home soon from work to check it out

Thanks for the support

#15 5 years ago

Okay sorry for delay

Every works as it should with mystery wire ...

The top right bumper doesn’t do anything regarding the MB relay

So I am not worried about it

Every item and feature in the field operates properly not sure why or who did it

Game still always acts as a 4 player machine

So I will focus on the initial issue

#16 5 years ago

After checking and verifying ..

The player reset relay indeed doesn’t work

The player advance does work - as it makes a 4 player game

Now I am doing some continuity checking and noticed that the yellow back when it gets the connector changes color

Does that seem right ?

See pic

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#17 5 years ago

Also I am going to ensure the step down coil is working as well ...

Will follow up soon

Any ideas of course greatly thanked and welcomed

My schematics are out for delivery today so I’ll have them soon

#18 5 years ago

OK I have confirmed the player reset relay works and the step down coil in the unit works

I’ve been trying to connect to these jumper cables to see if I can get it to work correctly but not sure where to attach the wires too between the player reset relay and the step up step down unit in the head

I feel I am close but could use a helping hand of guidance

Thank you all for your help

#19 5 years ago

I may have stumbled on something

So I took a photo

It looks like a wire may of been cut from the outhole switch but don’t know for sure

See pic

I am looking to see if I can find a wire

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#20 5 years ago

Is the problem that the game is stuck in 4 player mode? If so, here are some things to look into:
Bally Gator Coin Unit (resized).jpgBally Gator Coin Unit (resized).jpg
The middle part of this schematic shows that the Player Reset relay should fire when the Player Up Unit Disc matches the Coin Unit Disc. In other words, if the Coin Unit says there are 2 players, the Player Reset relay should fire when the Player Up Unit Disc is on player 2 (and the ball drains). The schematic shows the Coin Unit Disc in the player 1 position. But your game is behaving as if the Coin Unit Disc is stuck in the 4 player position meaning that the Player Reset relay only fires once the Player Up Unit Disc is on player 4 using the path highlighted in red.

There are a couple of ways this could be misbehaving. First the Coin Unit could not be resetting as fredsmythson mentioned in reply #3. Find the Coin Unit in your game and with the power off push in the plungers of both solenoids (one at a time) to see that it can advance and reset from any position easily. It could need a good cleaning if it can't do that.

If the Coin Unit works well with the power off, manually advance it to player 2, 3 or 4. Then turn on the power and start a game, and check the Coin Unit. It should have reset to the 1 player position. If not, examine the switches on the left side of the schematic to see if they're working. Since your Ball Count Reset solenoid seems to be working, the Start Trip relay switch is probably ok too, but the Coin Unit Zero switch (on the Coin Unit) might not be closing properly.

If all that seems to be working, it could be that you have a bad connection on the Coin Unit. Notice how the 4 player path in red bypasses the Coin Unit altogether. If you had a bad connection between the Coin Unit Disc and the 75 (orange-white) wire that goes to the Ball Return relay, that would make the game appear to be stuck in 4 player mode too. You can check this by clipping your ohm meter on the orange-white wire on the Ball Return relay and the three wires that lead from the Player Up Unit to the Coin Unit (91/grey-red, 56/white-brown and 53/white-yellow) one at a time. You should be able to measure something close to 0 ohms (not just continuity) for each of those three connections if the Coin Unit is in the right position.

/Mark

#21 5 years ago

As a simple recommended tip before digging through the game schematics any further.

Clean the game, rebuild assemblies, and burnish contacts on switches (including relays) BEFORE making adjustments or added technical troubleshooting.

You are already jumped far ahead in basic EM restoration, skipped checks, and often times MANY multiple problems can be resolved at once through basic maintenance which has not been properly executed.

After which you must be methodical from the entire Bally game startup procedures. This is not just a "courtesy" inspection of components. There is a lot of guessing which I noticed from posting, although good advice. This problem is specific to initialization, as the game is not resetting the player relay(s), and unlikely continuity, but you won't know until you eliminate basic sources of problems. It is like chasing an alligator tail.

If you really get stuck afterwards, you may contact me as one of the few collectors in the entire world whom own both Gator and it's brother game, German export, Alligator, along with understanding most of the Ted Zale "zipper flipper" titles, their specific features, and Bally game functionality.

Keep flipping.

#22 5 years ago

I found this out

As soon as I plug in the machine and hit the left button the 1 is lit for players on lower BG

Now looking at coil unit I think I may of found the culprit

My wiper arms seem to be off 1 click

See pic

Not sure what the F means on the wiper board but the arms will not step down that far

Also after trouble shooting further I noted that I can play 2 & 3 player game when the 2 OT and 3 is lit BUT cannot add a 4 player ..

So I am looking in the coin unit for a cleaning and full adjustment

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#23 5 years ago

The game is all set !!

I totally rebuilt the assembly but noticed that a switch was on the wrong side of the metal pin in the plastic wheel

After fixing that I realized that the switch stacks were horribly out of alignment so I straighten all that out

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP

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