Hey Thanks Mopar!!

The next testing I will perform is a score motor bearing run-out test. Sounds crazy right? The cams attached to the score motor shaft can be moved side to side and show that the score motor end bearing has a small amount of play. Here is my theory, I think this could maybe throw off the timing of the score motor switches 1A and 3B. Switch 1A and 3B both need to close at the same time when the motor rotates around to the third tooth of cog A. (according to this general motor timing chart below anyways) in order to energize the tilt reset coil. I'm going to try putting a side load on the motor shaft to see if this changes the tilt reset function. So things may get better, worse or stay the same. We shall see. Stay tuned.

Really wish I could find the elusive motor switch timing chart for this game.

IMG_1911 (resized).jpg

Hi Mopar,

The machine is intermittent. Sometimes a tilt result is correct when the adjust pin is on the IN position. Lose ball in play and 1 ball. Video 1
Sometimes a tilt result is incorrect when the adjust pin is on the IN position. lose 2,3 or all remaining balls. Video 2

Hi Mopar,
Yes you are correct. TR is not firing on time consistently.

I have followed the circuit.
I have placed a jumper at every node in the circuit without suspected results
I have shorted each switch contact, one at a time without suspected results
I have duplicated every wire run in the circuit using jumpers to connect every point to point connection without change in operation
Cleaned and adjusted a contacts in circuit

Hey guys
I did jumper all the connections at once and also to each node individually.

Hi Howard. The tilt reset operation is intermittent. See videos above. Coil works fine.

Hi Mopar and HowardR,

Thanks for your advise. I think we are making progress,

The score motor run out test I performed by applying a side load on the score motor shaft on all 4 quadrants did not change the intermittent operation.
Next I adjusted the A1 motor contacts to change the dwell time in hopes it will increase the time 1A and 3B are closed during tilt reset. I also adjusted 4C to address ball return to shooter lane inconsistency. Anyway after adjusting 1A I went through with a jumper for the 10th time and now was able to get some change in operation. Placing a jumper from A1 Node 1 to SB2 Node 6 the Tilt reset fired the first time A1 contacts closed. So next I moved the jumper to the O contacts at Node 2 and things got intermittent pointing to the O contacts. I shorted the O contacts and removed all jumpers and the Tilt reset fires as intended now. The Tilt reset fires at the correct time when 3B closes, this allows the ball in play to be lost before the trough switch is made by the ball which and subtracts one penalty ball. I had to stop there but I have lightly filed the O contacts before without any change in operation.. any thoughts?

pasted_image (resized).png

Hi Mopar,
The contacts on the O relay connected to A1 Seem to be intermittent.
When I (short) /jumper the O contacts the TR fires when it should and the game works as it should.
When I disconnect the short/jumper the TR becomes intermittent..
I took the O switch apart and cleaned the contacts again and re-soldered the wires..
The operation is still intermittent without the jumper in place.

Thanks Mopar
With the blades apart I did look to see if
the rivets looked loose. They did not appear to be but that doesn't mean they are not I will try the vice grip pinch.

Hi Mopar
I removed the O relay Contacts in question the rivets were not loose but I re-swaged them and added some solder to the back just to make sure but the problem still persists. If I manually push on the plastic separator on the O switch it works properly every time with the added force. There does not seem to be any binding and I added a tiny drop of thin oil to the armature. Still broke.

Here is the switch it does have two insulators between the blades.
I’ll try anything at this point this is ridiculous.

A9D711FC-F603-4FD5-9A89-C54A77172CBD (resized).jpeg

Hi Mopar
Thanks for your offer for the blades. I will remove a spacer and try tonight after work.

Hi Mopar,
I was not able to test before I took it off the game but I did test it at work with a Milli-Ohm meter. With a spacer removed it only takes light pressure and the contact resistance is only 10.9 Milli Ohms. That's .01 of 1 Ohm of resistance. So assuming 20A peak inrush current flow for the TR coil that's .2 volts dropped across the contacts. Resistance measurements are not as accurate as drawing 20A through the contacts and measuring the voltage drop but it's a good indicator of electrical contact. If I install these and the problem persists maybe the coil travel or a mechanical issue is in play. All other 5 contact sets on this relay seem to function though. I may end up taking some turns off the TR coil to increase the current and Mag field it produces.

pasted_image (resized).png

That's the plan. I already have leads soldered to the switch blade contacts to make it easy to clip lead in circuit. I will run through the testing and let you know.

Well I installed the switch and I get the same operation as before. When I jump the two wires that go to the switch the tilt reset will happen every time.

Hi Mopar,
You are correct, when I jumper the wires that go to the set of contacts on O relay it functions properly.

I will try the different blades you are so kind to offer. Thanks! I PM'd you.

I'm going to connect a separate relay in parallel with the O relay coil and wire to O contacts in the TR circuit to the NO contacts in the extra relay.
If the TR does not fire properly using a separate relay and contacts the issue lies elsewhere. Right?

Hi Mopar,
Thanks again for the blades! I agree with you but I still think something other than the contacts may be the culprit..Maybe mechanical.. When I leave the O relay contacts shorted the game does not work completely correct. Let me know how much for the blades and postage please.

When
Shorted Tr
does fire every time.

Hi, to clarify the machine does not seem to have any other issues besides the TR circuit. When I leave the O relay contacts shorted the machine does not function properly during normal gameplay but does function properly when tilted.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum..I don't think the new contacts will resolve the issue.

Hey Mopar,
I received the switches you sent,great thanks. I installed one of the new switches and it did not resolve the issue.
I connected a separate Omron 24vac relay in parallel with the O relay coil and connected it’s normally open contacts to the wires that go to the machine for a sanity check and it works the same as with the new switch you sent. So both switches work the same as the original switch.

Hi Mopar
To clarify.
Yes,same result. Intermittent Tr reset. Unfortunately.
Yes, shorting the two wires that connect to that O switch causes the Tr to reset reliably when ball drains.
The only thing I can think of is when applying force on the plastic separator the metal armature plate comes away (tilts) away from the coil center where the shade ring is located.

Testing update,
Test1)
I disconnected the 25V fuse and the GR-WH wire from the Tr coil so that the only path for continuity is through the wire and switches from 1A to the TR coil. Working with the power off and rotating the score motor to the 70 deg position where motor switch 1A is on its third pulse closure and motor switch 3B is being actuated closed while manually actuating the O relay there is continuity through all the wires and switch contacts from switch 1A to the TR coil.
Condition:
A1 closed
O closed
SB2 closed
3B closed

Result: Continuity measured from power side of contact A1 to TR coil.

Test2)
I wired a switch in series with the score motor so I could work with the power on and change the position of the score motor manually. Working with the power on and game in Tilt mode. I close the out hole switch to lock in the O Relay. With the score motor power off I manually rotate the motor to the end of the first Pulse of contact 1A, roughly 28° And the O relay is still latched on as it should be. Next I rotate the motor to approximately 42° The beginning of the second pulse of contacts 1A and the O relay de latches. So with the O contacts open and power never gets to the TR coil on the next A1 pulse 63° when contact 3B closes to power the TR coil. So this can cause the issue of subtracting all the remaining balls, I believe.

https://imgproxy.pinside.com/NA5tFTsoRy8Xj2icMFFqJ2jvixB1BSYEJWfIEfkIm54/rs:fit:2048:2048/q:85/aHR0cHM6Ly9vLnBpbnNpZGUuY29tL2QvNDUvN2UvZDQ1N2ViMmI4YjNiZDAyMDhkYzZjNzcxMjMxNDc1ZDlhOWJjZjI5NS5wb https://imgproxy.pinside.com/MBqM4_C3Qd1JQY9k0EU7F0JpkLGCiuXTXFcG82w1Ums/rs:fit:2048:2048/q:85/aHR0cHM6Ly9vLnBpbnNpZGUuY29tLzEvYTgvMTUvMWE4MTU4YzViM2ZiMzcyYjE4YmIxMzBiMjRmMTI2Y2IzMDMzNTRiNy5qcGc

pasted_image (resized).jpegpasted_image (resized).png

Hi Mopar.
The ball does eject to the shooter lane. The game only has other issues if O relay contacts stay jumped during troubleshooting. Otherwise the game works fine. I have checked,cleaned and adjusted 2B but that doesn't seem to be the problem.

Hi Mopar,
Allow me to clarify:

Currently when in Tilt mode and the ball drains, all remaining balls are subtracted and game over mode is entered. So the ball does not get returned currently after a Tilt until game is reset with the coin chute switch. In normal play, the game returns the ball as expected most of the time sometimes it takes 2 try's to make it all the way out of the ball trough to the shooter lane.

Hi Mopar,

Yes, I found that the MOTOR 2B contacts connected to the O relay coil that hold the coil on may have intermittent power. I connected a jumper from the RED-BLK wire on the MOTOR 2B contact directly to the 25V fuse and tilt reset and Tilt sequence worked as intended every time. Next I moved the jumper from the 25V fuse to RED-BLK contacts on the MOTOR 1C since they are supposed to be connected. Well...i may have shorted some other contacts with the clip lead because things stopped working like the SEQUENCE BANK RESET COIL for one. I did not realize that the switch stack 2C has mixed voltage levels on it, 120V and 25V so maybe I shorted the two with the clip lead. Looks like that would open a fuse. I will check tonight. We are soooo close! Thanks for hangin in there with me!