(Topic ID: 328872)

EM team Hearts and Spades

By Mully911

32 days ago


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  • 121 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 19 hours ago by Mully911
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 121 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 19 days ago

Hey Thanks Mopar!!

The next testing I will perform is a score motor bearing run-out test. Sounds crazy right? The cams attached to the score motor shaft can be moved side to side and show that the score motor end bearing has a small amount of play. Here is my theory, I think this could maybe throw off the timing of the score motor switches 1A and 3B. Switch 1A and 3B both need to close at the same time when the motor rotates around to the third tooth of cog A. (according to this general motor timing chart below anyways) in order to energize the tilt reset coil. I'm going to try putting a side load on the motor shaft to see if this changes the tilt reset function. So things may get better, worse or stay the same. We shall see. Stay tuned.

Really wish I could find the elusive motor switch timing chart for this game.

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#52 19 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

No luck. Still rando Tilt operation..

Okay, what state is your machine in now? Is it playing as if the
Tilt is in the Out position, which I believe would be only losing the
ball in play..

#53 19 days ago

Hi Mopar,

The machine is intermittent. Sometimes a tilt result is correct when the adjust pin is on the IN position. Lose ball in play and 1 ball. Video 1
Sometimes a tilt result is incorrect when the adjust pin is on the IN position. lose 2,3 or all remaining balls. Video 2


#54 19 days ago

Okay, then the TR (Tilt Reset) Relay isn't firing immediately when it suppose to.
You'll want to follow the circuitry in Post 5 that Howard laid out..

#55 19 days ago

Hi Mopar,
Yes you are correct. TR is not firing on time consistently.

I have followed the circuit.
I have placed a jumper at every node in the circuit without suspected results
I have shorted each switch contact, one at a time without suspected results
I have duplicated every wire run in the circuit using jumpers to connect every point to point connection without change in operation
Cleaned and adjusted a contacts in circuit

#56 19 days ago

If you jumped point to point individually, I guess it's possible you have more
than one issue point to point. Maybe with multiple jumpers, you can jump all
the point to points at the same time, and while jumping, I'm sure you re-checked
the solder tabs..

#57 19 days ago
Quoted from Mopar:

If you jumped point to point individually, I guess it's possible you have more
than one issue point to point. Maybe with multiple jumpers, you can jump all
the point to points at the same time, and while jumping, I'm sure you re-checked
the solder tabs..

Or use one jumper to jump over some or even all the switches

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

#58 18 days ago

Hey guys
I did jumper all the connections at once and also to each node individually.

#59 18 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

I did jumper all the connections at once and also to each node individually.

If you jumpered from both 25 volt transformer terminals (Black wire and Red wire) directly to the coil and it didn't activate, then the next step is to swap the coil with another one of the same part number, which if you're still talking about the Tilt Reset A-9735 interlock coil, there are 9 others in your Hearts and Spades.

#60 18 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If you jumpered from both 25 volt transformer terminals (Black wire and Red wire) directly to the coil and it didn't activate, then the next step is to swap the coil with another one of the same part number, which if you're still talking about the Tilt Reset A-9735 interlock coil, there are 9 others in your Hearts and Spades.

Hi Howard. The tilt reset operation is intermittent. See videos above. Coil works fine.

#61 18 days ago

If you jumped them all and still had the same results, the only thing left
is the Tilt "In & Out" Jack. Did you jump over the Tilt In/Out from the 0
to the SB2 Make/Break? The switches in 0 are the ones that's hardest to
get to, and the SB2's Make/Break are the ones on top furthest to the rear..
If still not luck, hook on TR and jump to Score Motor A1. We know A1 has
juice so it almost has to energize. And if so, take the jack from A1 and go to
the set of switches in O (pinching them both together, and then with a small
screw driver, contact the 2 A1 switches and it should energize. If it doesn't,
then we know the problems between A1 and O. But if all is good, keep working
your way to the TR Relay and close the switches you've already placed the
jack on..

#62 16 days ago

Hi Mopar and HowardR,

Thanks for your advise. I think we are making progress,

The score motor run out test I performed by applying a side load on the score motor shaft on all 4 quadrants did not change the intermittent operation.
Next I adjusted the A1 motor contacts to change the dwell time in hopes it will increase the time 1A and 3B are closed during tilt reset. I also adjusted 4C to address ball return to shooter lane inconsistency. Anyway after adjusting 1A I went through with a jumper for the 10th time and now was able to get some change in operation. Placing a jumper from A1 Node 1 to SB2 Node 6 the Tilt reset fired the first time A1 contacts closed. So next I moved the jumper to the O contacts at Node 2 and things got intermittent pointing to the O contacts. I shorted the O contacts and removed all jumpers and the Tilt reset fires as intended now. The Tilt reset fires at the correct time when 3B closes, this allows the ball in play to be lost before the trough switch is made by the ball which and subtracts one penalty ball. I had to stop there but I have lightly filed the O contacts before without any change in operation.. any thoughts?

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#63 16 days ago

Not sure where you are now. Are you say clipped from A1 to TR works fine,
but not when clipped to TR to O? If so, there's a problem between A1 and O..
That's where it (once again) needs to be trial jumped..
If still no luck, continue jumping the circuit. If still no luck, somehow, someway,
a set of contacts aren't getting continuity, then jump the contacts in that circuitry's
solder joints together, but A1's fine. Not those solder joints..

#64 16 days ago

Hi Mopar,
The contacts on the O relay connected to A1 Seem to be intermittent.
When I (short) /jumper the O contacts the TR fires when it should and the game works as it should.
When I disconnect the short/jumper the TR becomes intermittent..
I took the O switch apart and cleaned the contacts again and re-soldered the wires..
The operation is still intermittent without the jumper in place.

#65 16 days ago

So jumping the O switches, the machine works fine.
When the O relay is energized, are you sure those switches
are making a tight connection? I know those switches are fairly
close tollerance, but is it possible to tighten the space to a
bear minimum so when O energizes, the 2 switch blades are
even more compressed together?
And also, by any chance, might the rivet(s) on those blades
be loose? I now remember at one time I had that problem.
I think I ended up switching out one of those blades..
Edit: It just dawned on me. I believe it was a Wiper Blade the
rivet was loose. I'm pretty sure with a Vise Grip I squeezed
the rivet to tighten it with a cloth in between so the grips didn't
leave teeth marks on the good side of the rivet.
I'm not sure if I ever had a common switch blade with a loose
rivet, but evidently, something isn't right with one or both of those
O blades..
Edit again, haha: Here's a real strange one. I once had a blade
not making because it had a hair line crack in between the insulators.
You said you had those blades apart, so I'm sure not the case, but
it just shows that issues can be caused from the craziest things..

#66 15 days ago

Thanks Mopar
With the blades apart I did look to see if
the rivets looked loose. They did not appear to be but that doesn't mean they are not I will try the vice grip pinch.

#67 15 days ago

Oh gosh. I wish I was nearby so I could fix this thing!

#68 15 days ago

Hi Mopar
I removed the O relay Contacts in question the rivets were not loose but I re-swaged them and added some solder to the back just to make sure but the problem still persists. If I manually push on the plastic separator on the O switch it works properly every time with the added force. There does not seem to be any binding and I added a tiny drop of thin oil to the armature. Still broke.

#69 15 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

If I manually push on the plastic separator on the O switch it works properly every time with the added force.

The plastic separator? You mean the plastic with the slits that the longer blades
go through? It must be those O switches aren't making true contact.
How many small insulators are in between the longer blade and the short blade?
If 2, maybe you can take one out, and instead place it under the shorter blade so
the space between the two blades is less. Then when energized, the 2 blades would
have more compression with each other..

#70 15 days ago

Here is the switch it does have two insulators between the blades.
I’ll try anything at this point this is ridiculous.

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#71 15 days ago

They already look pretty close together, but that seems to be the point
where the issue lays. Taking one spacer out giving it a different contact
angle may do something. If not, I'll send you a couple blades of each
from a parts machine if you'd like..
But first, after it's back together jump together those 2 blades and double check that the TR works properly after Tilts..

#72 14 days ago

Hi Mopar
Thanks for your offer for the blades. I will remove a spacer and try tonight after work.

#73 14 days ago

Yea, it's a little crazy thinking moving a spacer would help it,
but if the problem are those particular contacts, maybe taking a
spacer out and changing the rivets contacting angle may do it.
I was also thinking, before taking it apart, if you have a continuity
tester maybe you can first test by squeezing the 2 blades together
with a little pressure. If it takes much pressure, then for some reason
those blades aren't transferring the current as easily as they should be..

#74 14 days ago

Hi Mopar,
I was not able to test before I took it off the game but I did test it at work with a Milli-Ohm meter. With a spacer removed it only takes light pressure and the contact resistance is only 10.9 Milli Ohms. That's .01 of 1 Ohm of resistance. So assuming 20A peak inrush current flow for the TR coil that's .2 volts dropped across the contacts. Resistance measurements are not as accurate as drawing 20A through the contacts and measuring the voltage drop but it's a good indicator of electrical contact. If I install these and the problem persists maybe the coil travel or a mechanical issue is in play. All other 5 contact sets on this relay seem to function though. I may end up taking some turns off the TR coil to increase the current and Mag field it produces.

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#75 14 days ago

Actually, I don't think I'd mess with the TR coil. We know that's
not the true issue.
When putting back together, maybe you can just jump the wires
and not solder until for sure the issue is resolved.
After back together, if still the same problem, if you can elegator
clip those 2 contacts together (or actually if you're elegator
clipping, you can just elegator the clips together), and run the Tilt
test just to insure the problem is with those 2 contacts. If then all is
good and functioning properly, I'm not sure what's preventing current
to flow through those contacts, but I'll send you a couple of each..

#76 14 days ago

That's the plan. I already have leads soldered to the switch blade contacts to make it easy to clip lead in circuit. I will run through the testing and let you know.

#77 14 days ago

Well I installed the switch and I get the same operation as before. When I jump the two wires that go to the switch the tilt reset will happen every time.

#78 14 days ago

So going through those 2 blades when the ball gets drained (O Relay energized)
the problems the same, but when those blades are jumped and the ball is drained,
it operates as it should. 1 ball plus ball in play. One ball is subtracted, and one other
from the trough switch.

#79 14 days ago

I was asking double checking.
It seems that set of contacts are failing.
From your trials, if you're confident that's the case,
if you'd like, you can pm me your mailing address and
I'll send you a couple sets of those blades..

#80 13 days ago

Hi Mopar,
You are correct, when I jumper the wires that go to the set of contacts on O relay it functions properly.

I will try the different blades you are so kind to offer. Thanks! I PM'd you.

I'm going to connect a separate relay in parallel with the O relay coil and wire to O contacts in the TR circuit to the NO contacts in the extra relay.
If the TR does not fire properly using a separate relay and contacts the issue lies elsewhere. Right?

#81 13 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

If the TR does not fire properly using a separate relay and contacts the issue lies elsewhere. Right?

Yes, the problem would lay elsewhere, but after jumping the O's wires
and the TR fires, evidently all elsewhere is doing their job. However,
if those 2 contacts rivets aren't burnt and pitted, I'm not sure why the
circuit isn't traveling through them. You shouldn't need another Relay
unless the plastic armature the long blade goes through has an issue.
One other thing. If possible, after the machine Tilts, and the ball drains,
can you touch the two O wires together just as the O Relay energizes?
It should have the same results when clipping them together right from
the get go, but this would duplicate the exact timing of the sequence
(although I wouldn't think it sould matter)..
I'll see about getting the blades send out this morning, meanwhile
you can still play the machine by clipping the two O wires, it just that
if it Tilts while the score motor is energized, the Tilt could reset before
the ball drains..

#82 13 days ago

Hi Mopar,
Thanks again for the blades! I agree with you but I still think something other than the contacts may be the culprit..Maybe mechanical.. When I leave the O relay contacts shorted the game does not work completely correct. Let me know how much for the blades and postage please.

#83 13 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

When I leave the O relay contacts shorted the game does not work completely correct. Let me know how much for the blades and postage please.

Oh, I thought when shorted the TR fired every time, but that
adds up. I had a hard time reasoning why those blades were
100% failing..

#84 13 days ago

When
Shorted Tr
does fire every time.

#85 13 days ago

Oh, got it. The machine has other issues besides
the TR's circuitry.

#86 12 days ago

Hi, to clarify the machine does not seem to have any other issues besides the TR circuit. When I leave the O relay contacts shorted the machine does not function properly during normal gameplay but does function properly when tilted.

#87 12 days ago

Well that's good news.
Hopefully a different set of contacts does the trick.
It's hard to believe they wouldn't..

#88 12 days ago

I'm on the other end of the spectrum..I don't think the new contacts will resolve the issue.

#89 12 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

I don't think the new contacts will resolve the issue.

I know the original contacts seemed not to be working which I honestly
haven't a good explaination for, and I understand your reasoning, but
there really isn't a logical or sensible reason why they wouldn't.

#90 10 days ago

Hey Mopar,
I received the switches you sent,great thanks. I installed one of the new switches and it did not resolve the issue.
I connected a separate Omron 24vac relay in parallel with the O relay coil and connected it’s normally open contacts to the wires that go to the machine for a sanity check and it works the same as with the new switch you sent. So both switches work the same as the original switch.

#91 10 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

it works the same as with the new switch you sent.

It works the same. You mean you're getting the same result?
It's not working? Yea, I had no clue why the original set of
switches weren't working. It can't be the switches, but tying
the two wires together, the TR energizes.
You mentioned when applying downward pressure to the white
plastic acturater, the TR Relay energized. Can you make out
what physically changes with the pressure besides more pressure?

#92 10 days ago

Hi Mopar
To clarify.
Yes,same result. Intermittent Tr reset. Unfortunately.
Yes, shorting the two wires that connect to that O switch causes the Tr to reset reliably when ball drains.
The only thing I can think of is when applying force on the plastic separator the metal armature plate comes away (tilts) away from the coil center where the shade ring is located.

#93 8 days ago

Testing update,
Test1)
I disconnected the 25V fuse and the GR-WH wire from the Tr coil so that the only path for continuity is through the wire and switches from 1A to the TR coil. Working with the power off and rotating the score motor to the 70 deg position where motor switch 1A is on its third pulse closure and motor switch 3B is being actuated closed while manually actuating the O relay there is continuity through all the wires and switch contacts from switch 1A to the TR coil.
Condition:
A1 closed
O closed
SB2 closed
3B closed

Result: Continuity measured from power side of contact A1 to TR coil.

Test2)
I wired a switch in series with the score motor so I could work with the power on and change the position of the score motor manually. Working with the power on and game in Tilt mode. I close the out hole switch to lock in the O Relay. With the score motor power off I manually rotate the motor to the end of the first Pulse of contact 1A, roughly 28° And the O relay is still latched on as it should be. Next I rotate the motor to approximately 42° The beginning of the second pulse of contacts 1A and the O relay de latches. So with the O contacts open and power never gets to the TR coil on the next A1 pulse 63° when contact 3B closes to power the TR coil. So this can cause the issue of subtracting all the remaining balls, I believe.

https://imgproxy.pinside.com/NA5tFTsoRy8Xj2icMFFqJ2jvixB1BSYEJWfIEfkIm54/rs:fit:2048:2048/q:85/aHR0cHM6Ly9vLnBpbnNpZGUuY29tL2QvNDUvN2UvZDQ1N2ViMmI4YjNiZDAyMDhkYzZjNzcxMjMxNDc1ZDlhOWJjZjI5NS5wb https://imgproxy.pinside.com/MBqM4_C3Qd1JQY9k0EU7F0JpkLGCiuXTXFcG82w1Ums/rs:fit:2048:2048/q:85/aHR0cHM6Ly9vLnBpbnNpZGUuY29tLzEvYTgvMTUvMWE4MTU4YzViM2ZiMzcyYjE4YmIxMzBiMjRmMTI2Y2IzMDMzNTRiNy5qcGc

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#94 8 days ago

I never gave it a thought that the O Relay wasn't remaining energized.
So when you said the machine had other issues, you meant the ball
never ejected to the plunger after it drained.
It sounds like it's the O Relays lock on switch which is Score Motor 2b.
That's 2b's inside switch. 3b should pulse closed just before 2b pulses
open. 2b needs cleaning, adjusting or both. Once again, it's the 2b's inside
switch. The set closest to the cam..
Note: Of course a wire could be off of 2b's solder lug also..

#95 7 days ago

Hi Mopar.
The ball does eject to the shooter lane. The game only has other issues if O relay contacts stay jumped during troubleshooting. Otherwise the game works fine. I have checked,cleaned and adjusted 2B but that doesn't seem to be the problem.

#96 7 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

I rotate the motor to approximately 42° The beginning of the second pulse of contacts 1A and the O relay de latches.

The ball ejects toward the end of the cycle.
How can it be ejecting if the O (Ball Return)
Relay isn't energized at that time?
Anyways, the O Relay's not suppose to
de-energize until the Score Motor's 2b
contacts open, which should be toward the
end of the cycle, just before the Score Motor's
run-out switch opens..
We need to keep that O Relay from prematurely
de-energizing..

#97 7 days ago

Hi Mopar,
Allow me to clarify:

Currently when in Tilt mode and the ball drains, all remaining balls are subtracted and game over mode is entered. So the ball does not get returned currently after a Tilt until game is reset with the coin chute switch. In normal play, the game returns the ball as expected most of the time sometimes it takes 2 try's to make it all the way out of the ball trough to the shooter lane.

#98 7 days ago

So when the machine is not tilted and the ball drains, the O Relay remains energized, but
when tilted, the O Relay prematurely de-emergizes.

#99 6 days ago

Hi Mopar,

Quoted from Mopar:

So when the machine is not tilted and the ball drains, the O Relay remains energized, but
when tilted, the O Relay prematurely de-emergizes.

Yes, I found that the MOTOR 2B contacts connected to the O relay coil that hold the coil on may have intermittent power. I connected a jumper from the RED-BLK wire on the MOTOR 2B contact directly to the 25V fuse and tilt reset and Tilt sequence worked as intended every time. Next I moved the jumper from the 25V fuse to RED-BLK contacts on the MOTOR 1C since they are supposed to be connected. Well...i may have shorted some other contacts with the clip lead because things stopped working like the SEQUENCE BANK RESET COIL for one. I did not realize that the switch stack 2C has mixed voltage levels on it, 120V and 25V so maybe I shorted the two with the clip lead. Looks like that would open a fuse. I will check tonight. We are soooo close! Thanks for hangin in there with me!

#100 6 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

the switch stack 2C has mixed voltage levels on it, ... so maybe I shorted the two with the clip lead

FYI, this could blow all your light bulbs

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