(Topic ID: 328872)

EM team Hearts and Spades

By Mully911

32 days ago


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  • 121 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 19 hours ago by Mully911
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 121 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 32 days ago

Hello all,
I purchased a Gottlieb Hearts and spades EM pin and I am learning how to work on EM Machines. What a great challenge !
Looking at the Hearts and spades I noticed the plum bob tilt switch was disconnected and laying in the bottom of the cabinet. After I repaired it and hooked it back up the machine works as follows:
With a ball in play and then the tilt switch activated the tilt light comes on the back box the playfield lights go out and all the targets are dead. After the ball drains the machine starts decrementing the number of balls left down to zero and the game over light comes on. Being new to pinball I am not sure if this operation is correct. There is a adjustable jumper that says tilt in/out and I’m not sure what that does but I tried both positions with the same results. Any information on this would be appreciated
thanks in advance
Mully

#2 32 days ago

You have several 'tilt' slam switches. They look like a normal switch with a round weight on the end. You should have one on the coin door, a couple on the bottom relay board, and one in the backbox. Check them to see if they are closed as they should be. Also check the switch on above the tilt bob (long rail with ball inside). That's the 'lifting' tilt to keep people from lifting the front of the machine.
Remember there is 120V present even when everything is off! Careful!!

#3 32 days ago

l have a few Gottlieb AAB's and they both act differently on tilt. The flipper parade you lose two balls and the flipper pool one ball. l remember read somewhere that tilt on certain games you lose the remainder of the game, it'll be someone with a Hearts and Spades will be able to tell you if the machine is acting correctly.

#4 32 days ago
Quoted from Fast400:

You have several 'tilt' slam switches. They look like a normal switch with a round weight on the end. You should have one on the coin door, a couple on the bottom relay board, and one in the backbox. Check them to see if they are closed as they should be. Also check the switch on above the tilt bob (long rail with ball inside). That's the 'lifting' tilt to keep people from lifting the front of the machine.
Remember there is 120V present even when everything is off! Careful!!

Hello based on your reply the operation I described above is not correct? Do you know what the proper operation should be? Do you know what the tilt in/out jumper is used for?

#5 32 days ago

If the Ball Return (O) relay doesn't activate the Tilt Reset (TR) relay,
Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

pasted_image (resized).png
#6 32 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the Ball Return (O) relay doesn't activate the Tilt Reset (TR) relay,
Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
[quoted image]

Hi thanks for the troubleshooting information do you know what the proper tilt operation should be on this game? It’s hard to troubleshoot something you do not understand how it is supposed to function.

#8 32 days ago

Thanks Howard
Looks like you lose the ball in play and one extra ball on a tilt. Mine currently tells Annie decreases the amount of balls to zero then goes to game over.

Quoted from HowardR:

If the Ball Return (O) relay doesn't activate the Tilt Reset (TR) relay,
Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-big-shot-repair#post-6305153
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
[quoted image]

Ok so The ball is in play and then the game is tilted.. looking at your highlighted schematic and a motor contact timing diagram that may or may not go to my machine( I was not able to find one for my Hearts and spades).
Can you check my reasoning on how this operates.
1 The O out whole switch is closed by the ball entering
2 The out hole relay O is triggered
3 score motor starts to spin closing contacts 1A
4 O’s contacts are closed
5 Motor contact 2C gets closed
6 T Contacts are closed because of the tilt relay being energized
7 zero position ball count switch is closed
8 subtract ball count unit coil energizes
I’m guessing all this happens to subtract one ball?

9 If the Tilt reset adjust is in the IN position and SB2 contact is closed
10 score motor contacts 3B will be closed by the motor and energize the TILT RESET.. TR coil
What do you think?

IMG_1911 (resized).jpg
#9 31 days ago

If this is your first pin, we have something in common. "Hearts and Spades" was my very first game as well.

#10 29 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

Hello based on your reply the operation I described above is not correct? Do you know what the proper operation should be? Do you know what the tilt in/out jumper is used for?

Do you have the game set to '5 Ball play'? Just checked my games, and on 5 ball play they all end the game upon tilt.

#11 29 days ago
Quoted from Fast400:

Do you have the game set to '5 Ball play'? Just checked my games, and on 5 ball play they all end the game upon tilt.

Which games? If they're replay games, then tilt ends game. Generally, on the add-a-ball Gottliebs, the tilt penalty is one ball, plus the ball in play.

#12 29 days ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Generally, on the add-a-ball Gottliebs, the tilt penalty is one ball, plus the ball in play.

This is definitely the norm for AAB single players..
Sounds like the H&S was tilting in the aggressive end of game mode.
Where are you now on it? Same?

#13 29 days ago

Hi guys,
This game is set to 5 balls pet game and I think jrpinball is correct. Tilt penalty 1 ball plus ball in play.

I have been working on this issue for days to no success. Now I think I have created another issue in doing so. I cleaned and adjusted the contacts on
SB2 relay (start relay) and some on the score motor 3B. The wire color markings on the wire have faded and or the schematic colors are different, it is rare to find a wire on a switch that matches the color on the schematic. This makes it difficult to identify the correct switch for a Newbie.

TILT sequence issue:
Troubleshooting steps so far:

1 I used a DVM on continuity check placed at Node 0 and moved the other end to Node 1, then Node 2, 3,4,5,6,7. I positioned the score wheel so contact 1A was closed. Manually closed the O relay contacts and when I got to node 7 I rotated the score wheel so MOTOR 3B contacts were closed. I have continuity from Node 0 all the way to Node 7 with the MOTOR 1A , O and 3B closed. The TILT reset coil still does not energize until after all the remaining balls have been subtracted.

Reset issue:
2 I created this issue --When I reset the game by pressing the free play button the game will sometimes count up 5 balls then subtracts 5 balls turn on Game Over light, add 5 balls and then kick the ball out..see the reset video please.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Tilt (resized).jpg

#14 29 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

When I reset the game by pressing the free play button the game will sometimes count up 5 balls then subtracts 5 balls turn on Game Over light, add 5 balls and then kick the ball out..see the reset video please.

Okay, at start up, the Ball Count steps up to to 5 balls (doesn't do another cycle
to 10), so we know the Control Bank is resetting, but it almost seems the free play
button is sticking, or the Start Relay in the Control Bank isn't always resetting although
the Control Bank's coil is energizing and doing its job.
Perhaps the Start Relay's armature plate is magnetized, or maybe the coil isn't resetting
100%. I'm not sure if you cleaned the Banks Coil plunger, but if you spray Lemon Pledge
on a paper towel and clean the Coil's plunger (just as is, no need to take it apart), and
black appears on the paper towel, 10 to 1 the plunger slides in and out much more easily.

#15 29 days ago

Hi Mopar,

Good to hear from you again! thanks for the info. I mentioned above I did clean and gap contacts on the SB2 start switch in the control bank. Maybe I messed something up. The relays in the switch bank all seem to do a full reset.

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#16 29 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

The relays in the switch bank all seem to do a full reset.

Okay, if the Relays are all resetting okay, I'm thinking the make/break switch in the SB2
Relay may be a bit close and while resetting. it may be vibrating back closed.
That'll be one of the upper make/breaks in the stake. I'd check if a little more separation
can be made on the make/break switch that is open after reset.
Now this would cause the SB2 Relay to re-energize itself, so if you don't see that happening,
then I wouldn't think that make/break is the issue..

#17 29 days ago

Hey Mopar
Wahooo!
It looks like you were right I must have adjusted SB2 contacts too close after I cleaned them trying to fix my tilt issue. I opened up the contact gap a little more and this seems to have fixed the reset issue. Thanks!!
No how about that darn tilt issue

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#18 28 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:No how about that darn tilt issue

Okay, on the Tilt problem. When the machine tilts, ball in play plus
one ball is what should be happening, but it subtracts the remaining
of the balls right to Game Over, correct?
If so, that points primarily to the Score Motor 3B switch. If that switch
isn't making good contact, it'll run-off the Ball Count exactly what (I
believe) yours is doing. You'll want to check 3B's solder tabs also..
btw: 3B is the outside set of contacts on that stack..

#19 28 days ago
Quoted from Mopar:

Okay, on the Tilt problem. When the machine tilts, ball in play plus
one ball is what should be happening, but it subtracts the remaining
of the balls right to Game Over, correct?
If so, that points primarily to the Score Motor 3B switch. If that switch
isn't making good contact, it'll run-off the Ball Count exactly what (I
believe) yours is doing. You'll want to check 3B's solder tabs also..
btw: 3B is the outside set of contacts on that stack..

Hi Mopar,
Thanks for the suggestion. I noticed on tilt the game will operate as intended losing the ball in play and 1 ball, sometimes. Other times it will subtract 2 or 3 balls. I will check the 3B contacts tonight and keep you posted, thanks again for the other reset fix info!! Your Awesome man!

#20 27 days ago
Quoted from Mopar:

Okay, on the Tilt problem. When the machine tilts, ball in play plus
one ball is what should be happening, but it subtracts the remaining
of the balls right to Game Over, correct?
If so, that points primarily to the Score Motor 3B switch. If that switch
isn't making good contact, it'll run-off the Ball Count exactly what (I
believe) yours is doing. You'll want to check 3B's solder tabs also..
btw: 3B is the outside set of contacts on that stack..

Hi Mopar,
I inspected cleaned and adjusted the Score Motor 3B switch but I'm getting the same operation on Tilt. It looks like the Tilt reset may be happening at different times in the sequence causing more balls being subtracted than at other times. Please see videos and notice when the play field lights come back on in the sequence compared to how many balls are subtracted. What do you think? Vid1 is it working correctly, Vid2 is the second ball working correctly and vid3 is it malfunctioning. What do you think?

#21 27 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

Vid1 is it working correctly,

Vid 1 is accurate. When the Ball Return Relay energizes, it takes away the
one ball for tilting, then the trough switch energizes the Ball Count Unit's
Subtract coil as normal..
Vid 3 acts just as if 3b isn't making contact to reset the Tilt Relay..
The Tilt Relay is a Trip/Latch Relay. I'm not sure on any Gottliebs, but
I've had Trip/Latch Relays not resetting just because the metal plates
that ride each other were kinda sticking more than the magnetic field
could move the one plate. Probably not the case, but I've put a couple drops
or light weight oil (I like Remmington Gun oil) where the 2 plates ride
each other, and there's been times where that has done the trick.
As long as it's metal on metal (no plastic involved) it can't hurt to give
it a try.

#22 27 days ago
Quoted from Mopar:

Vid 1 is accurate. When the Ball Return Relay energizes, it takes away the
one ball for tilting, then the trough switch energizes the Ball Count Unit's
Subtract coil as normal..
Vid 3 acts just as if 3b isn't making contact to reset the Tilt Relay..
The Tilt Relay is a Trip/Latch Relay. I'm not sure on any Gottliebs, but
I've had Trip/Latch Relays not resetting just because the metal plates
that ride each other were kinda sticking more than the magnetic field
could move the one plate. Probably not the case, but I've put a couple drops
or light weight oil (I like Remmington Gun oil) where the 2 plates ride
each other, and there's been times where that has done the trick.
As long as it's metal on metal (no plastic involved) it can't hurt to give
it a try.

Hi Mopar,
1- How does the Ball return relay take away the ball in play for tilting?
2- The Tilt/tilt reset seems to work fine after reset...so the mechanism should be ok ...right?
Here is the 3B contact open and closed.
IMG_2004 (resized).PNGIMG_2005 (resized).PNG

#23 27 days ago

The set of contacts in the Ball Return Relay always makes when the Ball Return Relay is energized,
the difference is, when the Tilt Relay is Tripped, a set of contacts is made which is also in the circuitry
of the closed switches in the Ball Return Relay to complete the circuit to the Ball Count's Subtract coil..
Are you asking if the TR (Tilt reset) Relay coil seems to okay? Yes, it appears to be. If the machine is
in the Tilt mode at Start Up, it energizes and takes it out of Tilt, right? Plus at times it operates properly
after tilting..
My guess was between a make/break in SB2, or the 3B switch, so I went down below and blocked off
the 3B on my H&S, and that replicated what your machine is doing. If your 3B seems to be fine, you
may want to check and make sure the make/breaks in S2B have good connection when SB2 is in the
Reset Position.

#24 27 days ago

Hi Mopar I guess I just don’t know which contacts belong to the ball return coil

#25 27 days ago

Hi Mopar sounds like a good idea do you know what switch on SB2 I’m looking for the wire colors do not match my schematic.

#26 27 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

do you know what switch on SB2

To be truthful, I was pretty darn sure it was 3B causing the issue,
but maybe SB2.
On SB2, I believe there's only 2 sets of Make/Break switches, so the ones that
are closed (when reset) on those 2 sets I'd make sure is making good connection..
Someone else that's having problems with Trip/Latch Relays not engaging because
it seems as though the coil doesn't have enough pulling power to trip the plate (he
already applied a little teflon lube where the 2 plates ride each other), I suggested
to maybe take tension off the blades in such a way so they didn't create as much
resistance to the coils magnetic field. It's probably not likely, but I think one time I have
done that, and it did do the trick, but I'm thinking your coil is mostly not firing at all times..

#27 27 days ago

Thanks Mopar
Can you tell me which contacts belong to the ball return Relay You referenced above

#28 27 days ago

It's the back inside set of switches with one contact have a double blue/orange,
and the other a green/orange, but if those set of contacts aren't making good connection,
it won't react knocking off all the balls as yours is sometimes doing. The SB2 doesn't make
it react that way either. Bad contact on the Score Motor 3B does.
You can check those contacts in the circuitry, and if no luck, you might want to do a little
jumping, and I'd say maybe start with 3B to TR.

#29 27 days ago

Hi Mopar
I am sorry I meant what set of contacts on the schematic belong to the ball return relay.

#30 27 days ago

The Ball Return Relay is letter O, but if that wasn't making, the Ball Count wouldn't
be counting down while in the Tilt mode..

#31 27 days ago

Hi Mopar
I see now why it was confusing I was looking at the ball return solenoid thinking it was a relay and wondered how it had anything to do with the tilt circuit. So now I know O is the out hole switch and relay and the ball return is the solenoid. Still trying to learn all of this. I put a jumper across switch 3B and a tilt results in a one ball subtraction.. and this is repeatable. So when the machine is in tilt mode and the ball closes the O switch the tilt reset coil is fired when switch 1A closes on the score motor. The interesting thing is if I check continuity from one side of the 3B switch to the tilt reset coil I get continuity if I manually close the switch contacts. I guess it could be a contact resistance issue where high current required for the relay causes a large voltage drop across the contacts and causes the relay not to fire properly sometimes. Strange.

#32 26 days ago

I filed the contacts until they are both shiny but that does not resolve the issue. Also with the jumper across 3B there is no loss of ball in play just one ball subtraction.

#33 26 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

Also with the jumper across 3B there is no loss of ball in play just one ball subtraction.

So the only thing subtracting the ball is the trough switch?
It subtracts after the ball is ejected?

#34 26 days ago

Here is a vid with a switch hooked up to trigger a Tilt and what happens with SW 3B shorted with a jumper. This reacts how I think it should with SW 3B shorted,Right?
As soon as 1A fires the Tilt reset is triggered subtracting only 1 ball. The contacts are clean and solder looks good on 3B???

#35 26 days ago

So it seems the TR Relay is now energizing like it should.
It also seems the trough switch is subtracting a ball as it should,
but the Tilt isn't taking away the penalized ball.
What's in that circuit that is different is the Score Motor's 2C
switch, and a set of switches in the Tilt Relay (one brown/red,
the other green/yellow) that is made after the Tilt Relay has been
energized. I'd inspect those switches. The Tilts and the Score Motor's
2C. (2C = the top cam in the #2 position)..
btw: Hearts & Spades refers the Outhole Relay as The Ball Return
Relay (0). Where it has 0 in that circuitry represents that there's a
set of switches (in that spot) that's in the 0 (Ball Return's) Relay..

#36 25 days ago

Cool thanks I will investigate those switches. Thanks for your explanation on the ball return relay below. So the ball return relay has contacts named O.

11821D2D-E949-4F48-A96C-1855F71B520C (resized).png
#37 24 days ago

Hey Mopar
I spent all day trying to fix the tilt issue. No good news. I rebuilt switch 3B with new parts from PBR. I re-soldered each wire to switch connection on every switch in the tilt circuit. Tilt reset is still intermittent. I made a LED test light and placed it across the Tilt reset relay to see when it was getting powered. I noticed when the Tilt reset was not triggered properly the test light would only dimly light and when the test light lit bright the tilt reset triggers. Seems like high resistance preventing the tilt reset coil from firing. The A1 and O contacts work fine passing high current when firing the Ball subtract count relay. Next I connected a jumper from 25v to the Tilt adjust “IN” and manually close the 3B contacts. The tilt relay will reset strongly every time. I’m stumped. The ball return started taking several times to get the ball to the shooter lane as well. Can score motor bearings cause this?

View recent photos (resized).png
#38 23 days ago

Just an observation: on your last photo, it looks like switch 3B might be shorted at the tab ends of the switch due to globs of solder that "appear" to be touching.

#39 23 days ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

Just an observation: on your last photo, it looks like switch 3B might be shorted at the tab ends of the switch due to globs of solder that "appear" to be touching.

Thanks, that's just my bad picture angle. The solder tabs are 1/4" apart in reality.


#40 23 days ago

In the vids you sent today, the 1st is as if the Tilt is in the 'Out' position
(but knocking the balls down slow as if the 3B isn't making true contact),
and the 2nd one is if the Tilt is in the 'In' position and is operating accurately..

#41 23 days ago

Hi Mopar,
Allow me to clarify the videos.

The Tilt relay has been tripped and in Tilt mode in the start of both videos.

The test light is directly across the Tilt reset coil.

Video 1
The Tilt relay has been triggered and the ball is headed toward the out hole. When the ball reaches the out hole the Trip relay fails to reset due a weak current pulse cause by poor contacting switches or maybe switch timing...not sure...Arrrrg

Video 2
The Tilt relay has been triggered and the ball is headed toward the out hole. When the ball reaches the out hole the Trip relay is reset by the strong current pulse provided when 1A, and 3B close. Maybe 1A and 3B are not staying on long enough together at times??? Or out of sync???

#42 23 days ago

Yup, that's what I'm seeing.
I'm not thinking it's the timing of the switches.
1A seems to be functioning all else properly that's
tied into it, so I'd jump each other point (from the schematic)
individually until it's determined where the weak portion
of the circuitry is. Possibly a wire from one point to another
has to be replaced..

#43 23 days ago

Thanks Mopar
I have placed a jumper at all the nodes starting Node 1 to Node 7. Then worked back to node 2 but I can't tell which switch contacts on the relay O that needs jumped because the wire colors are wrong. Or I am looking for the wrong colors. Also I believe a sequence of switch closures with the correct timing is required for the Tilt reset to work properly right? When I add a jumper it throws off the timing. Maybe.

pasted_image (resized).png
#44 23 days ago
Quoted from Mopar:

It's the back inside set of switches with one contact have a double blue/orange,
and the other a green/orange

These set of switches in the O Relay. It's the inside set that's
the hardest to get to..

#45 23 days ago

Hi Mopar,
Sorry, I'm not following where you mean.
If I am on the side of the cabinet and facing the hair pin clips that hold all the relays on the metal mount bracket. Where are thet from this aspect?

#46 23 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

If I am on the side of the cabinet and facing the hair pin clips that hold all the relays on the metal mount bracket. Where are thet from this aspect?

It would be the inside set of switches on the right side
in the O (Ball Return) Relay.
If you take out the hair pin clip to file the switches, it's the
hardest set to file because a portion of the Relay's frame is
in the way..

#47 22 days ago

Cool, I will have a look thanks!

This is the last set of contacts I have left to clean. I hope this does the trick.

I went into this figuring I would connect the tilt switch pendulum that was laying in the bottom of the cabinet when I bought it and all would be golden. NOT! 20 Hours later....still wrestling with it..

Looking at the O relay contacts on the schematic, they would have to be functioning properly to subtract a ball or balls, as it does at times during a tilt cycle. It never fails to subtract at least 1 ball unless you do not score any points, which in that case it returns the ball to the shooter lane without subtracting a ball.
Thanks
Mully

#48 21 days ago

Hey Mopar,
Update: Cleaned and checked gap on the O relay, thanks for pointing out where these contacts are located. No luck. Still rando Tilt operation..

#49 19 days ago

Hi Mopar,
Side question... do you know the length of the legs on your H&S?

#50 19 days ago
Quoted from Mully911:

Hi Mopar,
Side question... do you know the length of the legs on your H&S?

All of the Gottliebs of this era use 31" legs.

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