(Topic ID: 282119)

EM Nubie, Finally get Bank Shot up and Running :). Lesson Learned added!


By sulli10

5 months ago

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  • 20 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by Carlo45
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#1 5 months ago

So picked up a project GTB Bank Shot to learn more about EMs. Figured I would start this thread to help through the bring back process. I know how to read schematics and relay logic. Never been deep into an EM

Situation: game has obviously been sitting for a while. While it is relatively decent cosmetically, shows wear/ planking but will be playable once the game is up and running. Perfect game to learn on.

So far:
Got the game open ( had to lube the key hole pretty well)

Replaced all fuses. All but one were bad. Replaced with lower rating then on the schematic to give me a little more protection

Exercised all the moving parts as best I could gently by hand

Exercised the wire connectors to the back box , both inside the back box and cabinet

Turned the game on.
Some backboard lights came on.
The motor in the bottom left cabinet moved and stoped.

Simulated a coin in the coin slot.

Some play field lights came on.

The motor in the bottom left of the cabinet started turning and will not stop. One of the two motors in the back box started running and will not stop.

Turned game off. Good news, no blown fuses.

So I guess dirty/ stuck contacts somewhere and the “game” begins.

Looking for help from on next steps. I can see taking out the relays and cleaning contacts needs to be done carefully. Not a lot of movement tween open / closed.

The motors are not labeled well so I will add pics on the ones that are running.

Thanks for any help as I go through this process.
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#2 5 months ago
Quoted from sulli10:

The motor in the bottom left of the cabinet started turning and will not stop.

http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#motor

The motor will run until the reset sequence is complete. Could be any number of things preventing that. You'll find the schematic invaluable while troubleshooting.

#3 5 months ago

This is from Sure Shot, the replay version, but if you look at your schematic you'll see similar. These are the the switches that cause the score motor to run, so check them. Also check that the rivets are lined up correctly on that stepper in the back.

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#4 5 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

This is from Sure Shot, the replay version, but if you look at your schematic you'll see similar. These are the the switches that cause the score motor to run, so check them. Also check that the rivets are lined up correctly on that stepper in the back.
[quoted image]

I have the schematic but I am struggling to get past this one.

The logic is similar. What is the motor 1C contact?

I power up the game and sometimes I can hear the steppers in the back resetting some times not.

Once I trigger the coin switch

The S (start ) relay picks up and drops out

The R (hold) relay picks up and stays in but it is not in the ladder logic. It is in the circuit but the two needed feeder contacts contacts to it are open ( I am basing that off of wire colors). The two feeder contacts are off AX ( reset complete) and CX (3 Bally relay), neither of these coils actuate either.

None of the ladder logic coils actuate. If one had a closed contact ( that should be open) I would expect motor to start turning once I turned on the power energized the transformer, not wait till I actuated the coin switch.

So I am thinking it is Motor 1C?

As far as the score motor, when it is in the position in the picture I do get continuity across the rivet. It is on the side of the rivet tho. Is there a description how to adjust the score motors somewhere?

#5 5 months ago

There is one score motor in your machine (second picture in the bottom.
The other Unit you point to is a Stepper.
Obtain the Manual for your machine, read and understand the steps the machine goes through to reach Ready Status.
Determine what stage your machine has reached before problems result.

#6 5 months ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

There is one score motor in your machine (second picture in the bottom.
The other Unit you point to is a Stepper.
Obtain the Manual for your machine, read and understand the steps the machine goes through to reach Ready Status.
Determine what stage your machine has reached before problems result.

I would love a manual. I was told there is no manual. Is that because it is a AAB versus replay? Does the Replay Sure Shot have a manual? If not is there a Generic Gotlieb manual?

#7 5 months ago

Because the Gottlieb schematics are copyrighted and are having that copyright enforced by the owner, you'll have to buy a schematic from him. Get in touch with Steve Young at The Pinball Resource. He'll sell you one for about $20 or so. It's money well spent.

#8 5 months ago
Quoted from paulace:

Because the Gottlieb schematics are copyrighted and are having that copyright enforced by the owner, you'll have to buy a schematic from him. Get in touch with Steve Young at The Pinball Resource. He'll sell you one for about $20 or so. It's money well spent.

I have the schematic from Steve. First thing I bought. People were referencing a manual. Just got off the phone with Steve Young. He stated there are no manuals for GTB ABB games and the replay manual will not help me as it is wired entirely different. So I am stuck

He (Steve) recommended I look at the AX, BX, CX relays as there are problem with them typically. I did see some contacts were closed that on the schematic were supposed to be NO. I adjusted them but same result.

#9 5 months ago
Quoted from sulli10:

As far as the score motor, when it is in the position in the picture I do get continuity across the rivet. It is on the side of the rivet tho. Is there a description how to adjust the score motors somewhere?

As noted above, this is actually a stepper unit. Check this, from Clay's superb guide: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#steps

Reset will not complete if a stepper is off.

#10 5 months ago

Now I'm confused, Out of Sight came with a manual, I thought all the later Gottlieb machines did.
Sorry for the confusion.

#11 5 months ago
Quoted from sulli10:

What is the motor 1C contact?

One of the functions of Motor 1C is to represent the home position of the cycle. You can see it on the timing chart. If the game is powered up but idle, you can reach in and turn the motor a small amount, and it will run on its own to the next home position. There is a Motor 1C switch that causes that to happen. Other Motor 1C switches typically act to prevent various actions that should only happen when the motor is not turning.
.................David Marston

#12 5 months ago
Quoted from phil-lee:

Now I'm confused, Out of Sight came with a manual, I thought all the later Gottlieb machines did.
Sorry for the confusion.

No problem. I wish there was a manual. Trying to figure this out with one schematic, pinside and you tube is going to be fun.

#13 5 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

As noted above, this is actually a stepper unit. Check this, from Clay's superb guide: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#steps
Reset will not complete if a stepper is off.

Yea, I am focusing on the stepper unit right now. Trying to figure out what is the “reset” position and where the switches behind the unit should be set. Someone obviously has been adjusting prior”So I have three questions

The reset position with the rivets. The stepper drives counter clockwise when I trigger the coin switch and continues to drive.
When I got the game it drove and stopped slightly off the second to last rivet that has a wire attached. I would think it should drive to the last rivet with the wire attached. No?

Second, how do I figure out how the contacts should be adjusted. I can see mechanically how they are activated and used what I thought was common sense based on the switch configuration and the mechanical arms on the stepper as it traveled from end to end

On the schematic is the stepper called the “sequence” relay?

Sorry for the dumb questions.

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#14 5 months ago
Quoted from sulli10:

The reset position with the rivets.

The most important things, to start, is that the rivets line up with the snowshoes (the contacts with the springs), that the snowshoes move easily and spring back into place with a little snap when pulled, and that the wires in the black cloth are all connected correctly.

Quoted from sulli10:

how do I figure out how the contacts should be adjusted.

If you step it up and down a few times, it should become apparent. For example, the switch that opens when the peg on the gear hits it (see pic 1 or 2 above)-does it close and make solid contact when the unit is advanced?

Quoted from sulli10:

On the schematic is the stepper called the “sequence” relay?

Learning time!! See if you can match it up by coil #s and the schematic.

Quoted from sulli10:

Sorry for the dumb questions.

No such thing here.

1 week later
#15 5 months ago
Quoted from currieddog:

If you step it up and down a few times, it should become apparent. For example, the switch that opens when the peg on the gear hits it (see pic 1 or 2 above)-does it close and make solid contact when the unit is advanced?

Learning time!! See if you can match it up by coil #s and the schematic.

So it is the ball count unit. .

Starting to figure this bad boy out. I found the AX reset relay will not trip from the game. If I manually trip it the AX reset, the motor stops turning and the ball count unit stops moving. Now to figure out why the reset relay will not trip from the game. I think it is a problem with the ball count unit is not set up correctly.

#16 5 months ago

Yea,

Progress being made!

Got the game to reset and put a ball in play. The problem was the AX relay would not reset. The reason it would not reset is the ball count stepper never made it to the number six position. Two reasons that didn’t happen : first the ball count was not put back properly right by a past owner. Never could get the right rivet / position sequence and second one make break switch on the AX relay. She would make but she no break! Was driving the subtract coil in the ball count unit. Learning how to use the schematics to trouble shoot! Thankfully ,started my learning on a single player

So now all the play field roll over switches but one seem to work. Flippers work. Chimes work. All but one score reel seem to work. Lots of corroded light sockets. Got a few to work but going to need to get several working , play field and back box.

Game does not let me play the last ball. All power to the play field turns off. I guess it is the switches behind ball count. Not sure if the wow lights work. Need to figure out how to get the pool table balls to work.

Definitely going the right way finally. These EM games are really cool tho. A lot to them.

#17 5 months ago

Need some help again. I have a sequence bar with about 12 relays that are reset by the bar. The reset signal comes off the S relay on the start sequence. The bar gets the signal but there is not enough power between the two coils to rest one relay let alone 12 of them.

Bad coils ? Tried cleaning and gapping contacts.

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#18 5 months ago

Never mind. Figured it out! Closer gap on the motor contact and all good on the sequence bar reset.

So right now , I can play a game. Not all the play field and back box lights work ( mostly corrosion) I have to work on a scoring reel ( kinda gummed up). Still have a problem, at the end of a game, the ball is sent over to the out hole after the last ball with a end of game dead play field.

Learning more every day about this thing. The schematic is your friend. A lot of answers there. .

3 weeks later
#19 4 months ago

So, I am closing out on this project. I ended up getting the game fully working except the bonus count on a ball drain comes up 1 short occasionally. I have a basic idea where the problem is and will trouble shoot when I feel like getting into this game one more time. I also need to clean vacuum out the cabinet bottom. I decide to list all my big lessons learned so I (or some other Nubie) can review on my next project:

1) Search the Internet for your problems.You are not the first one in history in pinball to have this problem A lot of great ideas there. I solved several problems that way.

2) If you do not have, get a schematic! Worth it and once you get the hang on the info they contain, gets you through the problems. Again, tutorials on how to read on the internet/YouTube. Start from the voltage supply and work your way to the coil/light. Do not allow the schematic to intimidate you. Just remember the current must get from point A to Point B. The current must get to the coil to actuate. Work one contact at a time. If something else in the game is working that is common to a contact , the contact is most likely working. A jumper wire with alligator clips on each end helps a lot. It gets much easier when you are used to using the schematic. Little logic issues can be resolved quickly when you get the hang of the schematic.

3) Do not start "winging" it! methodically go through the machine , step by step to get electricity from point A to point B. If you make an adjustment and it does not work, Put it back before going to the next step! Otherwise you will be back tracking later to put back your adjustments (big lesson here!).Again, good trouble shooting techniques on you tube.

4) Get a switch leaf adjuster tool. Learn how to adjust switches. Tips are on line. Small feathering is better than large adjustments. Those relays do not move a whole lot to open/close their respective contacts.

5) Exercise switches, steppers, etc. gently by hand, before you adjust contacts. Gently clean metal to metal contacts if you think they are dirty. They are designed to be self cleaning. Lots of good info on line. No WD40! Read about this on line before you even think of putting on lubricants to "grease" stuff up. Gently clean coil plungers and sleeves.

6) Use common sense on what is supposed to happen! Just thinking about how the logic should work helps one understand. So, begin with the start up sequence when you push the start button , scoring reels reset, ball counter stepper goes to ball 1 for counter up or ball 5 to count down, bonus steppers reset, ball goes from outhole to shooting lane, etc. Solve one step at a time. Start at the beginning (pushing the start button) and work your way through. Once the game resets you are going down hill .

7) If a mechanical device does not have enough power to accomplish its task (say the reset bar for multiple coils) check the respective coil "feeder" contacts to make sure they are making good contact. This solved two problems for me. Once with the reset bar, the second was getting stuck on the number 9 on one scoring reel.

I used the find the faulty contact with "the lights off" twice. In the dark, the poorly performing contact sparked on opening/closing. Easy to identify with the lights off. Adjust / clean to stop the spark

9)Wire colors are your friend. Use them to figure out which contact you are looking for on a relay stack. Again info on the schematic.

10) Non working/Flickering lights are a pain. Buy several boxes of #44 lights. Start with Fresh bulbs. Corrosion is the first issue ( inside the socket and on the back side of the socket). Using a cleaning stick from PB Resource helps a lot. Make sure you have good metal to bulb contact when snapping the bulb in place. had a couple of cold solder joints (wire to socket) and lastly in the socket looks really bad, just change it out!

11) Really important contacts for the game logic are associated with the out hole, the AX/CX (start sequence reset coils), the EOS contacts behind the steppers and the scoring reels. Mine were all messed up when I started on the game. I guess previous owners tried tweaking them and got them way out of position. When theses were adjusted/cleaned correctly, a lot of problems are solved.

Lastly, the biggest lesson: This will take some time! The motor will continue to spin the drum until you figure out what is wrong.The game could have been sitting for years, mechanical stuff sticks, others may have tried to make adjustments, etc. Start at the beginning: Pushing the start button and go from there. It can get frustrating. The best thing to do is take breaks when stuck. It is amazing how after a break, the right path pops up in your mind. Write down problems as they come up and keep a list. Strike them off as you solve. Search the internet and have some fun. I can say the first time you get through a complete game it is very rewarding.

I apologize in advance if , I have listed something wrong here. The really good Pinside EM mechanics will correct me and I will learn something new (again) .
Good luck

#20 4 months ago

Great advise and I'll second all your points having been there recently working on a couple of EMs. Points 2, 6, and 9 have solved most of my problems. On point 1, I only wish I could more often google the identical problem with a solution but I guess it's both the beauty and nature of the beast that every issue is just a little different to drive you crazy. Yet there is no more satifsying feeling when you hunt it down and solve it and get to enjoy the game you love.

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