(Topic ID: 211601)

EM newbie with Super-Flite issues


By jfoust

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 22 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by HowardR
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

I picked up a $200 Super-Flite that kind of works, and is in nice shape... I've avoided getting an EM because I'm not familiar with them, but after resurrecting my Evel Knievel SS, I figured I couldn't pass up a $200 pin and a chance to learn about EMs! So here's what's going on (hope this makes sense):

When you hit the power switch, and hit the left flipper, the game turns on and all lights work (the lighting fuse was blown when I got it). The problem is that it's not resetting the game to 1st ball and zeroing out the score reels when you start it up. Sometimes when you turn the machine on, it comes on mid-game and you can play for a little bit, then it "locks up" for lack of a better term - the flippers go dead and scoring stops working. Every now and again, it'll actually reset the reels, start at ball 1, and play okay. If you do play to the end of a game, hitting the start button will do nothing to start a new game. Just now I started it up, it played a single-player game until ball 4, then froze. Lights are on, but flippers, targets, etc are all dead.

Occasionally, it'll turn on, reset the reels, kick a ball into the shooter lane and play a game just fine. When it does this, it's usually in 2-player mode, and sometimes when you turn it on, it starts up mid-game from the last game that locked up..

Things I've tried so far:
- Cleaned all the connector pins that I could find. They were a little crusty, but not terrible. Figured this wouldn't hurt
- added a 3-prong power cord (didn't think this would fix anything when I did it, but the old one was taped together and looked real sketchy)
- Cleaned the contacts on a few relays and looked at switches to the best of my ability - lock, reset, score reel, ball count stepper, and player relay.

I've started reading the EM guides on Pinrepair, and I'm pretty mechanically inclined, but this EM thing is definitely a whole new ballgame to me, so any help is appreciated!

Thanks,
Jeff

#2 2 years ago

If the Replay relay doesn't activate when you press the Replay button, diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Pinball (resized).png

#3 2 years ago

Thanks - I'll look into that. Not familiar at all with EMs, so reading the schematics is like reading Latin at the moment! I'll probably brush up on my knowledge before I start poking around with the machine on... Don't want to fry anything (myself included).

#5 2 years ago

I know the steppers on my Strato Flite have been problematic so I'm sure the "randomness" of your issues could be sticky steppers.

Also this manual is VERY helpful. Strato Flite was my second machine and it really helped understanding things a bit more than the schematic at first.

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2398/Williams_1974_Strato_Flite_Manual.pdf

#7 2 years ago

Williams EM manuals and schematics are the absolute best to learn with and the best complied in the industry. Hoestly, with the super flite being inactive for many years, I would estimate it would need gone over completely.

Between this place, pinwiki, and pinballninja you should be able to learn a ton.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Fordiesel69:

Williams EM manuals and schematics are the absolute best to learn with and the best complied in the industry.

Agreed

Quoted from Fordiesel69:

Hoestly, with the super flite being inactive for many years, I would estimate it would need gone over completely.

Sorry to disagree, fordiesel69 but if you're suggesting something like adjusting and cleaning all the switches, don't do it. This forum is filled with posts from people who tried a wholesale overhaul and broke way more than they hoped to fix.

What to do instead: Slowly and carefully diagnose one problem at a time and fix that, at least until you have a lot more experience.

#9 2 years ago

Howard,

I would never recommend a newbie touch a gottlieb especially a multiplayer. Boy there is a plethora to mess up.

The williams steppers are among the worst ever. I am not sure how they get so far out of adjustment and the blades make it on the other side of the pins, but otherwise williams respond awsome to this process and stay working. On the ones I got working without this process broke down frequently.

Success:
-Super flite #1 worked a little, but did not score proper
-Super flite #2 was 100% unresponsive.
-Aztech - was dead other than GI
-Set Up
-2 Star Pools
-Hang Glider
-Flip Flop
-3 Freedoms
-Jacks open
-Sure shot
-Mata Hari EM

Failures:
-Gottlieb Neptune (I made it unplayable still working on it)
-2 Chicago Coin games (Riviera and I cannot remember the other title, dead to start with, even worse when done).

#10 2 years ago

Hi jfoust
I wonder if Your pin makes the Game-Over-Relay to trip when You toggle-on the pin. See the JPG --- toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons). Do manually fumble on the Game-Over-Relay - make it latch - make it trip - do this several times - are both states "stable" ? Finally do latch the Relay. Then plug-in, toggle-on and watch the relay - DOES it trip ?
AAA - Yes it trips: Then my assumption of "fault causing Your problems" is wrong.
BBB - No, it does not trip: Toggle-off, unplug main power cord - YOU do manually trip the relay --- then plug-in, toggle-on, start a new game --- does the pin shows nice reaction - starting ? Greetings Rolf

0Shangri-La-Work-18 (resized).jpg

#11 2 years ago

Update for everyone - I finally got to spend some time going through the machine a few days ago after studying the manuals, etc. Here's where things went:

1) I dissembled and cleaned all steppers. This did nothing to improve things, but it was probably a good thing to do on a machine of this age, and now I know how they work, and know that they are clean and functioning as they should.

2) rolf_martin_062 was correct - turns out one of the switches on the Game Over relay wasn't making good contact. It was close enough that as I went through the switches the first time, it appeared okay, but on closer inspection, it was not quite closing well enough. Adjusting that switch got most everything going, and got the game to always start up in 'game over' mode instead of starting mid-game, or not starting at all.

3) I also found the wire that goes to the playfield feature lights from the Tilt Relay was loose, and popped off at some point. Clipped, stripped, and re-soldered those wires, and now everything works there.

So we're playing games start to finish just fine now!

My next issue that I've discovered now that I have a working machine, I haven't quite managed to solve yet:

When your bonus is totaled at the end of a ball, it's not adding all the points, but it only has a problem in single bonus mode. Example - if you have 10,000 points, and the 5,000 bonus is lit in single bonus and you drain, you end up with usually 13,000 or 14,000 points. In double bonus, you end up at 20,000 just like you should, and triple bonus works as well.

Also you'll randomly start a ball with double bonus lit, and every now and again triple bonus. This might be happening one out of 12 balls or so, and it's not necessarily happening if you had double bonus on your last ball., so it's not like something gets stuck on.. Any thoughts as to what could cause these two issues?

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from jfoust:

Update for everyone - I finally got to spend some time going through the machine a few days ago after studying the manuals, etc. Here's where things went:
1) I dissembled and cleaned all steppers. This did nothing to improve things, but it was probably a good thing to do on a machine of this age, and now I know how they work, and know that they are clean and functioning as they should.
2) rolf_martin_062 was correct - turns out one of the switches on the Game Over relay wasn't making good contact. It was close enough that as I went through the switches the first time, it appeared okay, but on closer inspection, it was not quite closing well enough. Adjusting that switch got most everything going, and got the game to always start up in 'game over' mode instead of starting mid-game, or not starting at all.
3) I also found the wire that goes to the playfield feature lights from the Tilt Relay was loose, and popped off at some point. Clipped, stripped, and re-soldered those wires, and now everything works there.
So we're playing games start to finish just fine now!
My next issue that I've discovered now that I have a working machine, I haven't quite managed to solve yet:
When your bonus is totaled at the end of a ball, it's not adding all the points, but it only has a problem in single bonus mode. Example - if you have 10,000 points, and the 5,000 bonus is lit in single bonus and you drain, you end up with usually 13,000 or 14,000 points. In double bonus, you end up at 20,000 just like you should, and triple bonus works as well.
Also you'll randomly start a ball with double bonus lit, and every now and again triple bonus. This might be happening one out of 12 balls or so, and it's not necessarily happening if you had double bonus on your last ball., so it's not like something gets stuck on.. Any thoughts as to what could cause these two issues?

Are you sure the bonus unit is not sticking a little? I have had steppers be ok sometimes, then miss the next time. Maybe not totally free? Also could be a switch on the score motor not making great contact. Look at the bonus relay in the book and where it connects.

#13 2 years ago

It's in this circuit, most likely the circled switch on the motor, but it could also be the circled switch on the Double Bonus relay.

Pinball (resized).png

Pinball (resized).png

#14 2 years ago

I had this problem with star pool. The bonus stepper was good, but not perfect. A teardown, adjustment, and manual operation check fixed it. The double and tripple bonus allows a little more time for the bonus unit to catch up, but the single bonus is so fast if the stepper is not perfect it will miss somtimes.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from tengle93:

Are you sure the bonus unit is not sticking a little? I have had steppers be ok sometimes, then miss the next time. Maybe not totally free? Also could be a switch on the score motor not making great contact. Look at the bonus relay in the book and where it connects.

Quoted from Fordiesel69:

I had this problem with star pool. The bonus stepper was good, but not perfect. A teardown, adjustment, and manual operation check fixed it. The double and tripple bonus allows a little more time for the bonus unit to catch up, but the single bonus is so fast if the stepper is not perfect it will miss somtimes.

Sorry to disagree, but if the the Bonus unit couldn't keep up, jfoust would get too many points instead of not enough. You raise a good point though. If it's a stepper, it's the 1000 Point drum unit(s).

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

It's in this circuit, most likely the circled switch on the motor, but it could also be the circled switch on the Double Bonus relay.

I'll check the motor - haven't messed much with it at all. Cleaned the double and triple bonus relays, but that didn't solve the random bonus problem or the issue with not counting down the single bonus correctly, so I guess it's into the motor I go!

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from jfoust:

Update for everyone - I finally got to spend some time going through the machine a few days ago after studying the manuals, etc. Here's where things went:
1) I dissembled and cleaned all steppers. This did nothing to improve things, but it was probably a good thing to do on a machine of this age, and now I know how they work, and know that they are clean and functioning as they should.
2) rolf_martin_062 was correct - turns out one of the switches on the Game Over relay wasn't making good contact. It was close enough that as I went through the switches the first time, it appeared okay, but on closer inspection, it was not quite closing well enough. Adjusting that switch got most everything going, and got the game to always start up in 'game over' mode instead of starting mid-game, or not starting at all.
3) I also found the wire that goes to the playfield feature lights from the Tilt Relay was loose, and popped off at some point. Clipped, stripped, and re-soldered those wires, and now everything works there.
So we're playing games start to finish just fine now!
My next issue that I've discovered now that I have a working machine, I haven't quite managed to solve yet:
When your bonus is totaled at the end of a ball, it's not adding all the points, but it only has a problem in single bonus mode. Example - if you have 10,000 points, and the 5,000 bonus is lit in single bonus and you drain, you end up with usually 13,000 or 14,000 points. In double bonus, you end up at 20,000 just like you should, and triple bonus works as well.
Also you'll randomly start a ball with double bonus lit, and every now and again triple bonus. This might be happening one out of 12 balls or so, and it's not necessarily happening if you had double bonus on your last ball., so it's not like something gets stuck on.. Any thoughts as to what could cause these two issues?

Rolf is always correct. Man is a rock star. Always a huge help.

#18 2 years ago
Quoted from jfoust:

I'll check the motor - haven't messed much with it at all. Cleaned the double and triple bonus relays, but that didn't solve the random bonus problem or the issue with not counting down the single bonus correctly, so I guess it's into the motor I go!

Does the problem show up for all 4 players?

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Does the problem show up for all 4 players?

Yes, happening for both players (Super-Flite is 2-player only). Random bonus coming on when it shouldn't occasionally, and not counting down single bonus correctly on P1 and P2.

#20 2 years ago

Don't know if it matters or not, but the 1,000 point rollovers on the playfield do work great. Even if you manually trigger them as fast as the bonus would count down, every single time it's scored correctly. I know that's separate from the bonus circuit, but I can get 1,000 points to tally correctly elsewhere, if that means anything.

#21 2 years ago

Here's a video of the bonus stepper counting up as I advance it by pressing a target, and then manually hit the ball drain switch:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/qjYu0yHufZky8boS2

And the score motor:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/uMPNE2UzRYBzqPu23

I had a look at the switches that seem to trigger the 1,000's and everything looks good - cleaned all the contacts while I was at it. I'm done messing for the night. Guess I'll pick it up tomorrow. Thanks for all the help, folks!

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from jfoust:

... cleaned all the contacts while I was at it...

Sorry but that was a mistake. This forum is filled with posts from people who attempted shotgun "fixes" and ended up causing more problems than they were trying to fix.

What to do instead: Slowly and carefully diagnose one problem at a time and fix that.

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