(Topic ID: 96539)

EM guys: what are your thoughts on high-tap?


By swampfire

5 years ago



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  • 83 posts
  • 34 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Gerry
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    There are 83 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 5 years ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    Nobody is saying they should. But they shouldn't play like a 40s flipperless game either. There is a happy medium there.

    The goal is to make them play as they were designed to play; no more and no less. I've noticed that games that are shopped and set up properly always give a fair share of those "close but not quite" games. That's a good indication that the game is playing as it should for the average level player. You don't want to beat it every time, and you don't want it to beat you every time. The action should be lively and smooth. It shouldn't be unnaturally fast, and we can all recognize when a game plays sluggishly. If it's sluggish after it's been shopped and waxed, it might need a bit more slope or bouncier rubbers here and there, but that's all the tweaking it should need.

    #52 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    The goal is to make them play as they were designed to play; no more and no less. I've noticed that games that are shopped and set up properly always give a fair share of those "close but not quite" games. That's a good indication that the game is playing as it should for the average level player. You don't want to beat it every time, and you don't want it to beat you every time. The action should be lively and smooth. It shouldn't be unnaturally fast, and we can all recognize when a game plays sluggishly. If it's sluggish after it's been shopped and waxed, it might need a bit more slope or bouncier rubbers here and there, but that's all the tweaking it should need.

    LOL, they were designed to make money for the operators. I'm not really sure that the level of the player and his ability to win free games was really the most important criteria here.

    It's really hard to decide how they were designed to play, given all the adjustments you can make to a game to make it play harder or easier.

    #53 5 years ago
    Quoted from jrpinball:

    The goal is to make them play as they were designed to play; no more and no less. .

    That is all well and good at home but on location my customers want games that play fast and fun. The ones who want slow and "How it was supposed to play" in 1966 are either dead or don't hang out in bars anymore

    I had my high-tapped Card Whiz on location for years before it broke a drop target. $4 for a new one and all is good. Williams and Bally I generally do not touch but the 2" wedgeheads and some of the 3" mid-70's Gottliebs seem to benefit.

    #54 5 years ago

    "high tap"

    th-3-512.jpeg

    #55 5 years ago
    Quoted from epotech:

    I high tapped my game that has 2inch flipper as they just aren't powerful enough but left my 3inch flipper game as that's fine as is.

    resisted chiming in on this one, because I am not sure what way I really lean. I think I tried hi tap on more 2" flipper games than 3"
    never kept any 3" on high tap but 1/2 of the 2" stayed
    but this is another AAB or replay thread so many opinions on why or why not
    all I can say, if you want try it only takes a few minutes if you don't like it undo it

    #56 5 years ago

    More on the pitch/angle discussion...With my levelers all the way in, I'm measuring 3.5 degrees on my ACD. I'll play it this way for at least a month. Here are the problems I had with the game set to 5.5 degrees:

    - It's harder to nudge for the critical 1-2-3-4 rollovers
    - I couldn't shoot the rollovers from the flippers
    - Less horizontal action, because gravity!
    - The mid-playfield slings couldn't get the ball up to the top drop targets. This is actually one thing I love about Abra, you can clear both sets of drop targets without ever having the ball come down to the flippers. Skillful nudging keeps the ball up top!

    I'm pretty sure I'll leave it at 3.5 degrees for our league night in August. I agree with ccotenj, the game is designed for a lower angle, and it doesn't play as well at 5.5 degrees.

    #57 5 years ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    How do you guys who are so anti high tap square this idea with Williams games that use DC power to the bumpers, slings etc? Those games are way faster than regular tap AC games, but again, I don't see any increase in breakage of plastics etc.

    Real easy. They were designed that way! I don't think high tapping alone contributes significantly to broken plastics and other components; it happens even under normal conditions, but high tapping needlessly stresses every electro mechanical component in the game including those that have nothing to do with game play. Combining high tapping with hot coils is inviting broken playfield components among other things.
    I'm no fan of such mods. Y'all can do what you want; they're your games! I'm done with this topic.

    #58 5 years ago

    I don't think high tapping is the main culprit for broken plastics, I think that's 6 coats of carnuba wax buffed to a mirror shine and brand new rubbers about 3X as often as really necessary, combined with 50 year old plastics that probably already have 1000 tiny stress fractures they picked up over the years.

    High tapping doesn't help, but if you want authentic game play leave the machine on 24 hours a day, see that it gets played about 3000 times a month, spill a beer or soda on it at least once a week, make sure it's bathed in a constant cloud of cigarette smoke so everything gets a nice even coating of nicotine, and then every 6 months spend 90 seconds with some Windex and a dirty rag cleaning the playfield whether it needs it or not. And never under any circumstances change a rubber before it breaks.

    You do that faithfully for 3 or 4 years, and that machine will operate just like the ones I remember playing as a kid.

    #59 5 years ago

    Generally-speaking, I think high-tapping is a way to compensate for not doing high-quality flipper assembly rebuilds. If you maintain the game well, you don't need to high tap.

    I don't high-tap my games. I do sometimes put LEDs in to reduce the voltage drain. But I'm a big fan of making the games play the way the original designers intended. When you make the flippers a lot stronger you throw the balance and design of the game off. I also feel the same in many circumstances with clear-coating playfields, although I'm a proponent of it when it is necessary to preserve the game.

    If you put a game on location, it's a different matter. High-tapping a game can probably increase the machine's earning and make the game more appealing and have the core functionality be solid for a longer amount of time. Tim Arnold is a fan of it for those reasons IMO.. if casual players like it and it earns, do it. But in a controlled environment where you want the game closest to the way it was originally designed, I advise against high-tapping.

    #60 5 years ago
    Quoted from cjmiller:

    High tapping doesn't help, but if you want authentic game play leave the machine on 24 hours a day, see that it gets played about 3000 times a month, spill a beer or soda on it at least once a week, make sure it's bathed in a constant cloud of cigarette smoke so everything gets a nice even coating of nicotine, and then every 6 months spend 90 seconds with some Windex and a dirty rag cleaning the playfield whether it needs it or not. And never under any circumstances change a rubber before it breaks.
    You do that faithfully for 3 or 4 years, and that machine will operate just like the ones I remember playing as a kid.

    sounds like my house...

    #61 5 years ago
    Quoted from PinballHelp:

    Generally-speaking, I think high-tapping is a way to compensate for not doing high-quality flipper assembly rebuilds. If you maintain the game well, you don't need to high tap.
    I don't high-tap my games. I do sometimes put LEDs in to reduce the voltage drain. But I'm a big fan of making the games play the way the original designers intended. When you make the flippers a lot stronger you throw the balance and design of the game off. I also feel the same in many circumstances with clear-coating playfields, although I'm a proponent of it when it is necessary to preserve the game.
    If you put a game on location, it's a different matter. High-tapping a game can probably increase the machine's earning and make the game more appealing and have the core functionality be solid for a longer amount of time. Tim Arnold is a fan of it for those reasons IMO.. if casual players like it and it earns, do it. But in a controlled environment where you want the game closest to the way it was originally designed, I advise against high-tapping.

    It's not just for the flippers. I rebuild the flippers on every game I buy. That's the part that keeps getting lost here. It's the overall quality of the game. Clay talks about that too-he also is a proponent of taking turns off that bumper coils to increase strength.

    Car designers designed cars to drive a certain way, but there's a whole industry devoted to aftermarket parts to make them handle better, have more horsepower/torque, look better etc. It's a pinball machine. It's not the Holy Grail. I prefer leaving them stock if the game plays well that way, but if it doesn't, a few mods isn't going to keep you from getting into pinball heaven.

    Again, the "broken plastics" argument is BS. I have a Bally game that runs on 50v, way more power than the little increase you get from high tapping the game. Of course, the coils are size appropriately for that voltage. But the bumpers on this game are DC fast, faster than my high tapped Gottliebs, and still, no broken plastics, except for one that would break regardless of the voltage-it's a design issue there. I don't think the designers of WMS DC games, or any game that runs 50v, designed the game with heavier duty plastics because they were worried about this issue, or worried about wearing out components. Because they didn't design the games to still be playing today anyway. They figured a short shelf life because the idea was to keep the operators buying new games to keep the company making money. They looked maybe 5 years down the line. A lot of these games are 50 years old and still playing. It's a testament to the quality of materials, because of lot of these games have been really beaten over the years, but it's nothing they intentionally did.

    #62 5 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    I think Clay's guide mentioned using high-tap, so I'd love to hear his thoughts on this.

    Most, if not all of Clay's Gottlieb EM games at the museum are high tapped.

    #63 5 years ago

    My typical rebuild process involves:

    Disassembly and ultrasonic cleaning of every:
    Relay
    Crank
    Stepper
    Flipper
    etc. In short, every part.

    Oil all metal on metal pivots, contacts. Replace any worn parts.

    Replace all coil sleeves.

    Clean adjust every contact point, including the motor stacks.

    THEN... I high tap it. This makes up for 50 years of wear that won't just clean up. The next plastic I break will be my first. Anybody who plays my games loves the way they play.

    BTW, Hi-Tap is worth about 2-3% voltage increase.

    #64 5 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    "high tap"

    th-3-512.jpeg 22 KB

    My interpretation of High Tap too.

    I think this High Tap issue is getting more and more like a Lite commercial.
    Plays Great Less Voltage!

    #65 5 years ago

    Some of my games are on hi-tap, others are not. It really is a game by game decision for me.

    Personally, I am more interested in enjoying the game than I am in keeping the play "as designed". So some games get their angles cranked up to their highest possible pitch and others remain at the 3.5-4.0 pitch.

    As I analyze EMs that I have owned in the past, the only games I hi-tapped were 2" Gottlieb Wedgeheads. I made the decision to increase the "pop" and speed of the play. Even now, my Kings & Queens that is currently located at Rat_Tomago's is on hi-tap. I prefer the play of K&Q on hi-tap. Yet my Atlantis is not on hi-tap and I do not see a need to change it anytime soon.

    The beautiful thing about hi-tapping is the reversibility. If I play a game on hi-tap and I do not like the play, I can spend a few minutes and change it.

    Marcus

    #66 5 years ago
    Quoted from newmantjn:

    Most, if not all of Clay's Gottlieb EM games at the museum are high tapped.

    He is a fan of the Gottlieb Yellow Dot Coils as well which means he likes his games crazy fast, to each their own.

    Ken

    #67 5 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    He is a fan of the Gottlieb Yellow Dot Coils as well which means he likes his games crazy fast, to each their own.

    He is actually more of a fan of orange dot coils. These were not available when he wrote the "guides" originally. Me? I don't like either orange or yellow dot all that much. I prefer the more subtle, cheaper adjustment of high tap.

    #68 5 years ago
    Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

    He is a fan of the Gottlieb Yellow Dot Coils as well which means he likes his games crazy fast, to each their own.
    Ken

    The advantage of high tapping is it speeds up everything, just not the flippers. Hot flippers alone don't make the game crazy fast, if the bumpers and slings etc are slow.

    I've used both yellow and orange dot coils in games. Everything being equal, I won't do it again unless it's absolutely necessary. I put yellow dots in a Big Indian and they were just too strong. I was hitting glass off the drops at the top of the playfield. Orange would have been better there.

    #69 5 years ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    I put yellow dots in a Big Indian and they were just too strong. I was hitting glass off the drops at the top of the playfield. Orange would have been better there.

    One of my first games was a Big Brave with DC rectifiers to feed the coils - a-la some of Gottlieb's later games. Now THAT was too much. Way too much. The arch was getting peened in the area between the drops and the rollovers from backhand shots to the B I G rollovers.

    So....now that this is on the table...are the arguments against high tapping also used against the later DC Gottliebs? Wear? Broken parts? etc.?

    #70 5 years ago

    The people who run hi tap, how do the lamps hold out?

    #71 5 years ago

    Most bulbs are on a separate circuit. Gottlieb is 6volts. Mechanicals are on a 24 volt circuit (that can be increased to 27-28 volts)

    #72 5 years ago

    I bought a Klondike a while back and couldn't get the top left and right pop bumpers to work well enough to get the ball into the 2 kick outs above the the pop bumpers. This is after new coils, sleeves, etcetera on those 2 pop bumpers. I didn't want to high tap because the rest of the game and the flippers were fine. Solution? A bridge rectifier across the bumper lugs. After I installed the bridge, the bumpers had no problem get the ball into those above kick outs, and now had as much power as the rest of the coils. I think I paid about $2.00 each at Radio Shack.

    #73 5 years ago

    I'm in the middle. Some machines play very well the way they are, after being restored/rebuilt. Other EM's seem like they need a little umph.

    It's good this is an option, when needed.

    #74 5 years ago
    Quoted from stashyboy:

    Most bulbs are on a separate circuit. Gottlieb is 6volts. Mechanicals are on a 24 volt circuit (that can be increased to 27-28 volts)

    But when you hi tap, don't we use the primary windings?

    #75 5 years ago
    Quoted from Chrisbee:

    But when you hi tap, don't we use the primary windings?

    The high tap only goes to the 24v circuit. The 6v circuit that drives the lamps in unaffected by the change.

    The only possible issue is if you have a lamp that is run off the 24v circuit, where the voltage is knocked down by a resistor. Gottlieb did it with things like the last ball in play light they used for awhile. Otherwise, lamps are not affected at all by the change.

    #76 5 years ago

    FWIW, I've never felt the need to high tap my wedgeheads, but I pretty much always high tap my woodrails. They just play a little better, but I've never noticed a huge difference worth agonizing over.

    #77 5 years ago

    Hi, I agree with geekbus, (to High Tap old Pins). I have set my http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1262 on high tap. I also had to set leg leveres for "only-a-little-pitch" - and: In a store for "Axle Bearings / Ball Bearings" I could buy balls of size "just-a-bit-smaller-Balls-than-regular" -> my 5 Balls played ( http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1262&picno=20241 ) still close contacts for "End of Game". Modern EM I do not set on High-Tap - I adjust leg leveres / pitch: A Ball stopped at a Flipper-Bat -> let go -> shoot for a target way up the playfield: the Ball should hit that target -> Game is set up properly.

    1 week later
    #78 5 years ago

    I have been working on games for 38 years every game i have is high tapped. In fact you can play all 50 of them at pinball expo 2014. I have never had any problems with any mechanical mechanisms in the games. All my games play like out of the factory speed. I have restored over 300 games. thanks john pedersen

    9 months later
    #79 4 years ago

    How do you high tap a williams goldrush...?

    never done it and dont wanna make a mistake !

    TIA

    #80 4 years ago

    http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#perform

    I believe that is a williams transformer in the picture.

    #81 4 years ago

    Desolder the lug on the 24 V and resolder it on the lug marked "High tap".

    #82 4 years ago
    Quoted from wizardblom:

    Desolder the lug on the 24 V and resolder it on the lug marked "High tap".

    It is that easy. Flux helps.

    #83 4 years ago

    awesome thank you

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