(Topic ID: 197283)

EM Cleopatra Help

By BubbaK

6 years ago


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  • 56 posts
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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by BubbaK
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#9 6 years ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Gottlieb EM games do NOT use diodes on the coils because the diode will blow fuses. Chop the diode off now and look for blown fuses.

Ken, are you sure about that? I have an EM Cleopatra, and all my solenoids (like the slings, pops, and flippers) have diodes, and my game performs flawlessly. This game was made while Gottlieb was also making SS games, and Gottlieb rectified the voltage for those particular solenoids. All the other relay coils, however, are diode free.

#10 6 years ago

BubbaK, you might want to heed the advice of others by reading up on the EM repair section of pinrepair.com. Pinwiki is also a good reference as well. These EM games are all pretty standardized, and most problems have the same solutions. For example, if you're missing backbox illumination, that's almost certainly a fuse issue--either the backbox fuse is blown, or the fuse clip is tarnished/broken.

The Gottlieb start up sequence on this era of game is kinda tricky, namely due to the Ax/Bx relay, which has very tight tolerances. Take very good care if you start adjusting things. If you're having trouble coining up, and starting a game, check out this particular section:

https://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0456.html

The start up sequence isn't from the same game, but it's close enough. If followed, you can usually track down your issues rather easily.

If you need any specific pictures of any mechanisms you might have accidentally thrown out of adjustment when you were playing around under the hood, let me know, and I can shoot some pictures of them over to you.

#16 6 years ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

I do not know anything about an EM Cleo, thus I was asking about whether any silicon transistors or chips were used ???

No, no other solid state components are used in an EM Cleopatra, aside from the diodes in the bridge and on the coils. The game operates 100% on electromechanical principles.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

Perhaps Gottlieb had ordered thousands of coils with diodes to protect their System 1 electronics, so they just used them for the EM versions also?

I'm pretty sure that this is the reason. At least, that would make the most sense.

Quoted from BubbaK:

I will probably take you up on it as I get into this.. I'm fairly new to pins and extremely new to EM's..

Please do! EM Cleopatras are a rare bird. Take care of it, and it will serve you well.

#24 6 years ago

Did you check the coil's resistance? Usually toasty looking coils are common for continuous duty relays.

If they're falling apart, by all means, replace them, but for the sake of simplicity, just desolder a lead off the questionable coil to remove it from the circuit, and use a multimeter to check the ohms. 2 ohms and below is a dead short and should be replaced.

1 week later
#27 6 years ago

So, I think in the schematics, the "ball return switch" is the switch that is located right between the flippers where the ball sits on game over (the outhole). The "Trough switch" is the switch in the trough as it's delivered to the shooter lane. The former resets any sequences, and the latter advances the ball in play.

Check that both switches are operating properly. I recall I had a similar problem, and the plastic outhole switch activator was not putting enough pressure on the outhole switch/ball return switch. Other than that, the solenoid that kicks the ball into the trough and into the shooter lane is activated by normally open switch on the "o"relay (which is the ball return relay) (one side of the switch will be a brown wire with red tracer, the other side will be slate with a mottled red). The other switch inline to that coil is labeled as "bx" which I'm having a hard time locating in the game.

But first, start with the obvious. Check to make sure that the plastic bit is placing pressure on the outhole switch, and that switch is clean and adjusted properly. Then move on to the switches in the ball return relay.

#29 6 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Is it safe to change the tap on the transformer or should I leave it on normal?

According to my schematics, there isn’t a high tap for this game. It’s a transformer that’s either tapped for 115volts or 220volts. This is because the game has DC rectified flippers, kickers, and pop bumpers. It doesn’t need a high tap to boost the power. The coils have plenty as it sits. Trust me.

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

I still can't get the kicker to fire to load the 1st ball into the lane.

I thought that was the problem you were having previously. My mistake for misunderstanding. It should be simple to just trace the solenoid issue backwards through the schematics to find out why it isn’t kickng.

#36 6 years ago

Great progress!! Congratulations on succeeding on your repair endeavor.

#41 6 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

There is a connector in the backbox between the score reels with a few single pin jumpers.. There is a pin with no home.. I can't figure out what this connector is or where this pin should go.. It was just kinda tucked in the wires..

Like Darcy said, that connector is to adjust the scores at which a replay is awarded. They're a little tricky to figure out, and sorta useless in a home environment, since replays don't really matter. If you do want to figure it out, there's a small card stapled into the side of the backbox. It gives brief instructions. If it's missing, I'll snap a picture of mine for you. Otherwise, you can just ignore it for now.

Quoted from BubbaK:

I have no bonus scoring. The bonus counts down, but the score reels don't move. Not sure where to start with that one. Any tips? Not sure of sequence.. Bonus unit appears to be adjusted properly.

The bonus on this game counts up from bottom to top, with the arrow scanning to look for both colors being matched. If matched, the game scores the value. If not, it's not scored. Video of my game for clarity:


The bonus counts up with the bonus unit under the playfield. Check to make sure the rivets are aligned properly and clean. Also check the switch stack on the front for properly adjusted switches. There's a post on the cog that presses up against the stack when the stepper unit is activated all the way to it's maximum. Note that in the second video, the unit should reset if there's a ball in the game. The through runway switch resets it, but since the game is propped up, I couldn't activate it.

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Quoted from BubbaK:

The match doesn't work at the end of the game. The numbers don't light up and the knocker doesn't fire.
Would these be related?

They should not be related. Check the switches here for proper adjustment as they are related to the match:
IMG_6821 (resized).jpgIMG_6821 (resized).jpg

The match numbers are rotated using this little stepper unit Gottlieb used. The one for the match is in the backbox, and it's socketed with jones plugs, so you can take it right out and work on it on a table. The one pictured here is another unit under the playfield for reference so you know what to look for. These almost always are gunked up and not working properly. But they are VERY fragile and tricky to work with. Be careful if making adjustments.

IMG_6820 (resized).jpgIMG_6820 (resized).jpg

Here's a guide to working on them Scroll down to "Gottlieb AS Relay" (or just ctrl-f to search in page):
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#steps

Quoted from BubbaK:

Does the 5000 point light turn on/off of or is it supposed to be lit once the drop targets are done?

It turns on and off only after the bank of drop targets is completed. It's controlled by that AS relay I have pictured under the playfield (I think that specific one is labeled KS). I bet that one is gunked and isn't rotating either (causing the light to either be 100% on or off). That same relay also cycles the extra ball lights from left to right. Just be careful, as the one under the playfield has a small switch stack inside. It's a little trickier to adjust than the one in the backbox.

#45 6 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Seems like it rotates once per game.

It should rotate a number for each 50 point switch or 10 point switch (I don't have my schematics nearby, so that's a speculation). If you find that it's not random enough, it's probably just a dirty mini stepper.

Quoted from BubbaK:

When I move them by hand using the plastic slide, it feels tight at that spot. I didn't lube anything other than the contact board.. Could this be a relay not firing long enough since it happens on all the reels intermittently?

Gottlieb did a lot of things right, but their score reels later in their designs were pretty overcomplicated for no real apparent reason. They called it the Decagon Unit, and they're pretty awkward to work with, but as long as you're careful, you can take them apart and clean them up with rubbing alcohol. I personally don't grease anything--aside from the wiper plate like you have done--but if it's still sticking after a good cleaning, check to make sure that the 0/9 position switches aren't putting too much pressure on the mechanism bogging it down.

3 weeks later
#53 6 years ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

I'm pretty excited since the game wasn't doing anything when I started and I've never touched an EM game before. I've got 2 more minor issues to work out and It should be 100%.. Unfortunately, I think I've caught the EM bug and am now sorta looking for another one.

I gotta say, you did an excellent job jumping right into repair--especially with a game like Cleopatra. Like most of the late model multiplayer games, it's not an easy game to work on. Very complex. But, you'll start seeing patterns, and down the road, fixing things on EM games will become easier and easier until it's largely a non-issue.

Quoted from BubbaK:

The only major issue with this game left is the playfield is shot. Its kinda funny to watch the ball swerve down the middle of the playfield between the plastic lights.

Are you saying that the playfield is warped? This isn't as uncommon as you might think. With all the junk weighing it down underneath, it'll start to bow. There's a few threads around here highlighting details on how to correct it.

Stripping and clear coating is tricky business, and you're not likely going to be able to lay down layers thick enough to level it out. If your insert lights are cupping, you can fix that with a heat gun. There's a thread floating around somewhere here detailing that as well.

#55 6 years ago

Honestly, if I were you, I probably wouldn't really dig too deep into clearcoating the playfield, unless you plan on really digging in your heels and go all-in. Otherwise, I'd just keep it cleaned and waxed, and enjoy it as it sits.

There's a gentleman here who is documenting his foray into playfield restoration on his sinbad. The trial and error he has faced was enormous. It might be worth it for you, it might not be, but if you read his thread, you'll get an idea of what you'll need to do to get it looking good:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sinbad-restoration

Otherwise, I'd just call it a day, and use that time look for another game to adopt and repair and enjoy!

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