Maybe don’t demo the product you’re wanting people to but if it’s core selling point isn’t done yet?

Stern are asking people to drop the full asking price now. People buying it should be comfortable with what is being sold
now, that’s what you’re paying for. There is no guarantee of anything else down the line.

Buying a pin (or anything really) on the basis of a nebulous future feature or code update is seriously risky. Just look at Munsters, on the final code already...

Bang on.

People buying the “it’s a stream codebase and not indicative of final product” are putting a lot of faith in to it. Are you suggesting that in a 2 hour stream they can’t demonstrate depth? Or that the missing Elvira videos and callouts are in there somewhere?

Are we supposed to believe that they stripped out loads of Elvira content on their Elvira themed pin called 3lvira.. because the stream had to be... “linear”?

I’ve got some magic beans to sell if so..

Then don’t buy it. Simple. Plenty will become available in the future. New and used.

At this point, the only thing you can look at is the track record of the person on game code.

How was the BM66 stream in comparison? Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. My expectation is that EHoH will traverse the same blueprint as BM66 and end up as a phenomenal game.

I was watching it comparing it to my job, where we schedule demos ahead of time, and don’t always quite make everything work in time. I’m not sure how the Stern code check in works, but if you
Try to add “one more thing”, it can break a LOT of stuff, and forces you to go back a version. Don’t know if this is the case here, but I know Lyman has delivered on all of his precious games - and the rules write up I read on TWIP is -much- more deep than the stream implied. Still need to play it though

The real shit on Elvira is that so far Elvira doesn’t do much. And what she does do seems uninspired compared to SS. Lots of Stern fanboys are praising the interactive mechs on the game, but they’re not very convincing.

But if you’re a fan of B-Movies, then you got that working for you.

You're right, but Gomez was behind BM66.

I walked on the LE. It’s funny - I think I am willing to have faith in Lyman, but I can’t get past the plastic ramps at this price point. Yes, I could replace them .. but I shouldn’t have to.

Will I regret it? Maybe. I won’t lose sleep over it.

The design yes....but Lyman is the coder for both.

You're probably right and I'm pretty sure that Lyman will work his usual magic. I don't recall an early stream of BM66, in fact, if I remember correctly, I don't think it could even be played at that first Expo and was just a static display. That said, I bought BM66 LE right out of the gate and it was a very frustrating first 18 months. If Lyman had retired or went to another company before he worked his mojo, we would have been hurting. The code took so long that some of us BM66 early buyers speculated back then that he was also working on Elvira code at the same time. Obviously, we were wrong. So, my take is that if someone wants a nice NIB LE they probably need to buy now, but if they want a Premium, there's really no need to rush at this point.

Hasn’t the EHH game been in the works for 2 or 3 years? He may have been!

Have faith in Lyman! Just buy the game in 2 years when it’s done. No worries! BM66 is available NIB all over. It’s actually worth buying now. In 2 years Elvira will be too.

Some guys will play, enjoy and recycle 5-10 games in the the next two years, and then buy Elvira, for about the same cash they spend now for the first game in the cycle.

The game is beautiful, but believe me, after 2 years of waiting there’s a decent chance you’ll be so sick of the game - and the same callouts etc. - that you’ll probably sell it before the code is ever complete.

My hunch is a lot of Ghostbusters hit the sales block in the next 3-6 months. All those patient owners are gonna get their jollies with the new code, play the shit out of it, and then be done. Satisfied but ready to move on. Which wont be surprising, after nearly 4 years of ownership.

Batman 66 was revealed at Expo (and streamed). But they did not play the game at all, only turned it on. It wasn't until much later that there was a game play reveal. So in comparison, Elvira 3 is much further along than BM66 was.

Stern has been pretty consistent lately with games that are not completely done at reveal. Jurassic Park is awesome, but doesn't have 3 or more wizard modes in it yet. Dead Pool had many changes done after reveal, and now people are loving it. JJP POTC took years after reveal to be available to buy, and didn't have all of its code/modes done after shipping (still doesn't). Bottom line - ALL the great games that people are loving from Stern OR JJP are not done at reveal - it's just how it is lately with ALL of the manufacturers (same for Spooky, not sure about AP - but most likely).

Pinball is a niche market and that's just how it is currently. If we all stopped buying games unless they were completely finished (not gonna happen), our beloved pinball companies might adjust or might go out of business. IMO you can't compare this niche industry to larger bigger businesses - it is what it is - and it's pretty much been that way since we as a consumer base have been asking/demanding more and more in these games. The rulesets are massive compared to previous decades. In the 2000's primarily Simpsons and LOTR had the massive rulesets, but in the last 5 years we have been getting that level of rules (or more) in a lot of games, plus now we have full video.

You've convinced me. Now that I've been reading all these posts I don't even want this lousy game!
The code doesn't seem far along and buyers can't count on this Lyman guy to make it deeper or better.
The stream didn't show enough clips of Elvira and they probably didn't record and don't have any more.
It isn't as good as Scared Stiff and it should have looked more like Scared Stiff with a bone-y beast ramp.
Only Stern fanboys like the haunted house and deadhead crypt and junk in the trunk mechs on the playfield.

Except I do believe Lyman Sheats is the best there is and Lyman will make the game code terrific.
And I'm sure they recorded Elvira video for all of the 26 horror film clips and other game content.
I already own Scared Stiff and I don't want the same thing again. I like the different design theme.
If anything I'm a WMS fanboy and the cool new mechs on this game remind me of my WMS games.
So I'm happily waiting for the LE I've paid in full for. And lots of you will wish you had one some day.

The game will be great just as BM66 and TWD. Unfortunately we need to wait. I am just happy that we are getting new machine options from Stern, JJP and others. Better than nothing.

My take on Elvira is Stern had to get this pin out for the Chicago Expo, and like most business it's always a deadline to make make money.Stern also has another game coming out in November so deadlines and production is even more important. So if it takes a great programer (I would say the best programer out their) 2-3 years to tweek and refine and make a game what he wants, then how could the game ever hit the streets.Anyone who loves and knows pinball is buying a game like Elvira on fate that Lyman will make this game great like he always does.Is this a right way to buy and own a game ? I would not buy a unfinished car in hoping they paint it in a few years, but buying a stern pinball, this is the norm, and consumers who buy trust in stern to make changes as needed down the road.So the only question is do you want a LE or do you want to wait and get a premium later ? Stern will be making premiums for years and code aside the LE will sell out quickly if it shoots well and plays fun.If LE's are not important to you then wait and see.As far as the price point I can only hope Elvira is getting the upcost for her pocket and Stern is making the same profit margins.I would have liked to see a topper with the game {like Batman} but I suppose if one wants to spend more money than it helps the secondary market peps to sell something.
For theme integration and just basic fun in pinball look at what Lyman has to work with.Tons of corny jokes,movie clips and Cassandra on board with custom callouts and video clips.So this game will be a blast to play and watch the screen come alive.Lyman is probably like a kid in a candy store with available material.I also believe that being the 3rd Elvira game that the whole stern family is not going to let this game be so so.The past two games were both the best of their time and fun to play and drop coin in.Aside from the price point I think this game will be fun and make money for venders on locations.I do think the cost difference between the premium and LE is worth buying the LE with shaker,powdercoat,speaker upgrade,glass,art blades,backglass ect.
Bottom line is if you like fun theme integration and the best programer in pinballs history and like LE games,then snag up a LE soon.If LEs are not your thing then wait it out and see.The premiums will be around a long time and nothing is different on playfield,but my prediction is another great game people will love and enjoy.

They have to demo it. It’s on the line and shipping soon. This is when you demo it to get distributors to buy. You gonna hold up the production line and lose tens of thousands of dollars a day because one mode isn’t bug free? No. You remove the mode from the demo and fix it later.

I’m a software engineer. I 100% hide features from demos if they’re not vetted. Breaking the game in a demo is way worse than not showing enough features.

We’ve seen the hi res images and feature matrix. EHOH podcast showed -> how the game flips, which is fine; how the game looks in 3d, which is good to very good and how bare code is, less than average good. Sounds and speech were uninspiring and the floating heads to be refined. All deficits are fixable by King Lyman, who was assigned 2 years ago and who began working in earnest this summer.

The poor callouts sunk my interest in buying the game. I was expecting SS level material or better, but what I heard was lackluster. Any award winning effort requires a superb script, so whoever is in charge of dialog needs to be replaced with a professional comedy team. It didn’t hit me how important speech was to this title, but it turned out to be second to art. The lack of good judgement in the first go around of recording speech leaves me less hopeful it will be done right. Willing to flip EHOH and to criticize it further, once it hits locations.

I'm willing to wait it out and get a Premium. It would be great to try it on location, but at their price point, will there be many locations that will have it?

I can understand this sentiment. But I'm not really loving this pin for different reasons other than what you stated. I do believe at the end of the day this will be a winner.
The complaint that I find baffling is that some people think it's an empty playfied. Empty?!?? Wth are people looking at? Theres a huge mansion sitting right in the middle of this beast. Theres issues I dont like that cant be fixed by code, but this game should rock when the code is completed.

QFT

Same thing people said about Hobbit, despite there being a TON of mechs in that game. It’s just that a lot of them are closer to the back in order to make
Room for the 4 beast mechs which are -gasp!- in the middle of
The playfield.

Being a sucker for horror themed pins, even campy ones (tho I passed on Munsters), I do like this pin--but not for the cost. If I had to choose I'd probably go for a JP Premium but with an Alice Cooper (finally!) arriving in the next two weeks that's it for a while. I might consider this pin on the used market in a year or so when they start popping up (or sooner). I did watch Elvira off and on when she was in syndication and I grew up watching many of those campy horror films played on network TV on lazy Saturday afternoons. I think on the live stream the crew looked more exhausted than anything. Is it me or are the Stern rapid fire releases finally catching up with them?

Monster Bash is a bonafide classic, designed by a legend, coded by Lyman Sheats, that plays smooth as butter & is a perfect example of a perfect game.

Goatf*****s has the worst physical design ever seen in a pinball machine, designed by a convicted pedophile, just got a band-aid update after 3 years to try to make it slightly less horrible, and will always play like absolute trash. TOP 5!?!?!? OMFG.

Is it too early to start an owners club so I don’t have to weed through 59 hate posts hating on the same thing?

It’s my understanding that nearly all video games and now pinball are all sold with ‘incomplete code’, or early code. That it is updated over years. Can I ask you, is that the standard for the industry? Just to be clear. Maybe Why if you care to go into that much depth?

Four days ago Elvira fan Robert Winter started a thread: Elvira's House of Horrors - The Owner's Club
He asked that no one post in that thread until they receive their game.
Three people who have games on order but have not received them yet have since posted there.
I'm waiting until I receive my LE before I post anything in that thread.
It would be nice (and courteous) if only owners posted in that thread.

lyman is going to code the sh#t outa that rotating thingy on the house!

I can’t say for video games; but there’s a radical difference because video games are so decoupled from physical production. They used to have hard dates for the “gold master” but video games now rely on physical media even less, so they don’t need a big lead time to spin up disc production. All the deadlines for video games are self imposed.

In pinball there’s only so much time on a manufacturing line. There’s all these other teams with physical roles to play. Any delay triggers down the line and can delay other games or departments. Quite simply, software is the only part that can be augmented after the manufacture so it’s the only “flexible” part.

Video games used to ship on a cartridge and were immutable. But they used to be pretty simple in design too. Now customers demand way more out of games and the more complex a game is, the more chance for bugs. Same for pinball. (Even 90s B/W games had bugs).

I imagine that quite simply Bally/Williams made more games and had more flexibility on their manufacturing lines. Looking back at their release, some years in the late 80s/90s they did up to 10 machines a year!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-machine-chronology-list-wanted#post-90377

That must mean they had multiple lines and could juggle projects if one took a delay. Stern is probably just more lean doing 4-5 games a year. That means their manufacturing lines are less redundant and thus even more rigid in their scheduling.

I know it’s contentious, I don’t mind a bug or two in my .99c mobile game, but when you pay $6k for a game it isn’t great to get incomplete code. I guess my opinion is any company still doing American manufacturing is pretty much a minor miracle and I’m willing to accept the way things are. Then again I’m not buying NIB that often.

Just finished playing TWD and BM66 earlier today

Two great reminders of what’s coming with Lyman and I like the layout of Elvira better

Elvira will make 3 phenomenal pins in a row for Lyman. Of course gotta give credit to Nordman and the rest of the team!

What makes you think deadlines for pins isn’t self imposed? As a software engineer, I can confidently say; whether it’s a production line or a production schedule, they’re both self imposed unless you’re building specifically for a client and deliverables have been promised.

And this one isn’t a $6K machine btw. As a NIB buyer on this machine, you’re basically paying $10K for the ‘privilege’ of being a beta tester.

This is a Stern discussion thread about Elvira, it appears you need reminding (read the title of this thread, not a general game thread discussion as you suggest). What is completely passive aggressively bizarre is: you use Stern threads as a stage to constantly pimp JJP and you know it, that is why you won’t let off on me, because I call you on it. Now you get your up votes by complaining about the price, which we all think is way too high. Only bizarre behavior is your insistence in always making this about JJP. No complaints from me if you’ll leave this a discussion about Elvira. You just can’t take any criticism about anything JJP when compared in a discussion. Take your JJP game promotions to other JJP threads, as many have already requested you to do. This is not a general game thread, again read the title pal. No one cares if positive or negative features about Stern or high prices about Elvira are discussed here. It is when you constantly bombard us with your annoying anything JJP is better, that is hijacking this thread and you know it. If you have some issue you wish to discuss with me personally, take it to PM, instead of constantly airing it here. Grow up my twelve year old acting friend! Lol

I for one would love to see some kind of video mode. Maybe an Elvira version of "Tubin"? or is it "Toobin" Her version would be called "Boobin" since its got the pool party thing going on.

Since this isn’t the owners thread here and it’s more like the haters thread I gotta comment on Kman’s podcast about Elvira.

I listened to it while riding the bike and nearly fell off lmao at some of the ridiculous comments made

First of all happy bday and congrats on getting over 400 podcasts in. I remember talking to you about you thinking about doing one years ago. Keep it up

People gotta realize that love it or hate it the podcast is entertaining AND as such it caters to more of the hater, rage against the machine, whiner crowd.

That is why primarily Chris will win the Twipy again. Most people love to listen to negative entertaining BS. Look at the news today!

Have you ever heard Chris rail on a game he owns? Well it’s just one and it’s BM66. I own it too

He doesn’t like the Elvira theme, doesn’t get it, and despite being a “marketing guy” can’t figure out how the F Stern is able to sell out these games so fast.

It must be the myopic viewpoint that we are all suckers like he said and stupid for spending that kind of $$ on the game.

MANY of us believe Elvira will be BETTER than BM66 and it just an opinion based on PAST RESULTS and the fact that yes Lyman is a pinball god.

Can you just hear the crowd of 2500 cheering and screaming for Kman as he rails against the stupid 450 suckers for buying the game. LOL

Connect with hate man!

As for Elvira i paid $600 more than I did for my previous LE. So what? It’s in higher demand

The idea that Chris keeps throwing out there about how the community has to band together and demand more for the $$$ or Stern will never give it to us is STUPID on its face

Aside from acknowledging what’s coming in 2020 I’m quite sure that Stern wants to COMPETE, make money and stay in business for the long haul. Thus they will innovate and get better due to competition and the drive to dominate

Right now they are crushing it and will continue to crush it! Stern is NOT the one making me rethink my purchases, bottom line

It’s NOT based on some unrealistic “give me the magic” BS like Chris blew a nut over when he saw Wonka the first time.

Is that the “magic” Chris? LOL

Message to Stern, keep making FUN games, with great artwork, theme and fantastic integration and people like myself will keep buying and the HATE crowd will just be left wondering why and whining about it here and on his podcast.

Sorry buddy, gotta call you out on this one since you called me and the others out as “suckers”

As to price and value to people, don’t ever forget it all very relative and subjective. It’s a PERSONAL choice for everyone.

I look forward to our conversation when I receive these games and get a chance to dig in.

One last thought for all of you, think about Apple and why millions of people are upgrading their phones and the stock is about to hit an time high.

I can buy a much cheaper older version on the secondary market? Get it? Very few people want a restored TOM or TOTAN for the same $$$$. We want NEW F ing experiences and are willing to pay for it!!!!

Absolutely. I think Lyman will be given all of the time he needs to work on Elvira code. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if its Lyman who tells Stern how long he will need to properly code a game and when he considers it done. Even with Batman 66 being super polished and deep there's still another update in the works for the game according to the September Stern of the Union address.

And therein is why we buy these games. We have had an AWESOME experience on TWD and BM66. For me, despite lack of code and setup issues on TWD I was in from day one.

I like the evolution of these games over time with code updates. We get to play a new game and have new experiences like GB

Once again, another misguided stupid opinion of Chris, GB is a fantastic layout and FUN as F to play

Anybody else understand that?

Your post is on the “money”, lol. Like listening to Chris, but he really went on an all out rage on Elvira MSRP. Agree with him that pricing is too high for what is being offered, but the Lyman factor will make this game a real winner in the end. All those B movie fun moments, captured within a great story line, about Elvira trying to sell the house of horrors to finance her new movie. Can’t create a more fun story line than that. And having Elvira appear within the game is so cool. Hope this is a trend Stern might do with other titles. Stern is crushing it in some areas. Now if they would only include more interesting return wireforms, instead of plastic. We all know it is a software show in progress, but the bones of it is quite campy fun now.

While so much of pinball is subjective and personal opinion, there is one glaring OBJECTIVE FACT.

And that is that Stern sold out almost instantly 450 Elviras

The BM66 outrage was like an all out war against Stern by comparison on pricing and how they did it. Yet, BM66 is one pin that has held its value as well as any. Just a small minor factor but true

I didn’t see the need to get the SE for me, but I did on the LE and thrilled with my decision after watching the stream.

Because we know what’s coming down the road, another objective FACT

Disagree. Owned almost ever game at one time or another, minus bing bang bar or whatever it’s called, for the day monster bash WAS good but can’t compare to the feel and ruleset of a modern Stern. That includes ghostbusters. Totally underrated. Beatles is even way better. To each their own I guess

That is the compelling point about LE/SLE pricing. Truly limited to 400 (more than 500 LE’s is not limited) LE’s on a good title/theme hold their value. BM66LE/SLE has held value, even though original asking price was quite high. But think the exclusive Bat topper had something to do with that as well. Think Stern should have included an exclusive Elvira topper too and maybe it’s the lack of things like that causing Chris to complain at high pricing.

Bought the premium. Can’t wait.

No doubt about the topper and the fact that there are 240 LEs versus 400

I wouldn’t expect Elvira to hold value as well except, she has a worldwide appeal and the campiness and B movieS with her call outs and intros will make it awesome

The Adam West card is cool, so is the topper, but Elvira herself in the game is another level

To make fun of the B movies and not recognize the same corny flavor of Batman and Munsters is ridiculous

Right on about campy fun titles like Batman and Munsters being similar in scope to Elvira. The new Munsters topper integrated into game play is an amazing addition to the game from what my friends tell me. Maybe Stern also has a topper planned for Elvira coming down the pike. Stern’s propensity to integrate toppers into part of the game play, is going to be a killer add on for them and us.

I was distracted by the guy on the stream walking around with a little notebook taking notes while others played. Probably has barely touched the paint brush yet.

I never get tired of the master doing his work.

that was one of the gargoyles... not related to not hitting the two 3 banks of standup switches I was referring to.

My LE will be here in about 2 weeks, my family likes this title. Only 200 slated for the US, so why are so many people
griping like children when they are not buyers. Go play the pins you have. Life is to short!

I don’t believe you’ve ever owned or played “almost every game” if you think Goatf*****s “feels” better than any game made in the history of pinball. The airballs, the lane hops, the rattley shots that go stdm, the saucer that kicks stdm, the right ramp that never makes the curve on the Prem, the stupid manga slings that drop the ball down the middle, the flipper gap from hell....no other game feels like that. Monster Bash feels perfect when played. And that ruleset? Can’t hold a candle to anything made from the 90’s-2014.

Spot on, I have zero regrets on my decision to buy an LE. I have thoroughly enjoyed the Stern games that I have purchased in the short time I have been in this and absolutely want the new experience and I have NO problem paying for it period end of story. I don't feel like a sucker one bit, as a matter of fact so far the games that have been hated on the most seem to do pretty well. Looks to me like the market seems to be speak loud and clear on the games value.