(Topic ID: 275529)

Eight Ball Deluxe solenoid misfire

By In99flames

1 year ago


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  • 14 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by pindel
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 1 year ago

Hello! Ive been restoring an EBD. New hardtop playfield...LED kit....i serviced it all and it works beautifully except for 1 issue. This has been tearing me apart as I understand why it can happen but I don't understand why it is happening. I am hoping someone here can give me some insight. On to the issue:

The issue is simply this, when the signal for the 4 drop target reset happens, it resets the 4 drop targets as normal but simultaneously fires the 2,10 drop target. In test mode, the 2,10 will fire normally alone and not cause the 4 drop target to fire. Only happens when the 4 drop target solenoid fires does the 2,10 fire erroneously.

Here is what I did:
I know that those 2 solenoids share a connection and the relay will switch between. A bad diode could cause this symptom. So i started probing. checked solenoid expander board. 555 incandescent bulb is working(i did not swap this particular one to LED). All GI is working and relay is switching. I believe the relay was changed at one point(not by me). I cant confirm it was changed but it looks way too new to be original. Reflowed all connections on SEB for good measure and checked diode which was good. I checked the 2 diodes on the 4 drop target reset solenoid and the 2 on the 2,10 drop target. All checked out normal....i replaced them anyways. No change in result. Checked diodes on SDB for the hell of it, all checked fine. Checked the driver transistors even though I didnt think they were the issue....all checked out ok.

I'm confused as to what is wrong. It isnt that complicated of a circuit and it is driving me mad as to why I cannot seem to understand what is happening here. Could someone help me end my madness?

Edit: picture of the schematic. Anotger bit that is confusing me here is the image of the SPDT relay switch. Im reading this as the normally closed position which should be keeping wire 67(i dont have the wire color code handy) active and when energized activates line 81. When I was in the test mode it was reversed as to what the schematic says.
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#2 1 year ago

Check the isolation diode on both the 7 bank drop target coil and the 1,9 drop target coil. One of those diodes is missing/shorted/wired wrong and allowing power to the 2,10 drop target coil. First suspect on the 7 bank drop target coil.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Check the isolation diode on both the 7 bank drop target coil and the 1,9 drop target coil. One of those diodes is missing/shorted/wired wrong and allowing power to the 2,10 drop target coil. First suspect on the 7 bank drop target coil.

Gotcha. Didnt think of that. Ill do that tomorrow when I am back at my shop. I believe one of the two 7 drop target solenoids was replaced. Thinking it was a 3 lug coil to a 2 lug coil with one diode across...

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from In99flames:

Thinking it was a 3 lug coil to a 2 lug coil with one diode across...

That will definitely be the problem. If it's a 2 lug coil you'll have to add the isolation diode to it on the Grey-Red wire.

EBD_7DropTarget_IsolationDiode.jpg

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

That will definitely be the problem. If it's a 2 lug coil you'll have to add the isolation diode to it on the Grey-Red wire.
[quoted image]

I had my helper take a video of the 2 coils(im not there today). Apparently both were replaced on the 7 drop target reset. One coil(when coil is facing upward) has 2 red gray on left side, 2 black white wires on right side. One diode across the 2 lugs with cathode towards black white. Other coil has(coil facing upwards) same arrangement of wires and 1 diode across the 2 lugs with cathode facing red gray. Yep....there is my problem....damn. I was so focused on the orange brown that i didnt think to look at the other side as I was assuming the previous repair was done correctly. Well.....nope. I should know better!

Screenshot_20200819-140245 (resized).pngScreenshot_20200819-140421 (resized).png
#6 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

That will definitely be the problem. If it's a 2 lug coil you'll have to add the isolation diode to it on the Grey-Red wire.
[quoted image]

this is for my understanding. To make sure im understanding properly what happens in this case. Since the diodes are not hooked up properly on the 7 drop target, reverse voltage is allowed to pass through the circuit. There is now a free charge in the gray red wire. Electricity will take the path of least resistance to ground and the 2 10 coil is next in the path thus being the shortest easiest way for it to ground. This is why the 1 9 coil does not fire. The 4 drop target then fires and the relay is back connected on wire 81(orange brown i think)which is shared with the 2 10 coil. Since the charge is not coming from the reverse direction to the 2 10 coil, its own diodes do nothing to stop the coil from firing because it technically is coming from the correct direction in the circuit and the relay has completed the circuit so the 4 drop target fires along with the 2 10 coil.

Would this be a correct explanation of what is happening here? I just want to understand as well as fix.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from In99flames:

One diode across the 2 lugs with cathode towards black white. Other coil has(coil facing upwards) same arrangement of wires and 1 diode across the 2 lugs with cathode facing red gray. Yep....there is my problem....damn. I was so focused on the orange brown that i didnt think to look at the other side as I was assuming the previous repair was done correctly. Well.....nope. I should know better!

Oh dear, that coil connected backwards should have caused the playfield fuse to blow and potentially the Q8 driver transistor on the solenoid driver board when activating the 7 Drop Target Bank Reset coil. It was essentially acting as short circuit across the coil. The Black-White wires must connect to the non-banded (anode) side of the diode across the two coil lugs. You need to then somehow install the isolation diode between the Grey-Red wire and the coil lug with the banded (cathode) side of the diode. This diode prevents voltage going back through the windings and powering other coils in the circuit.

See the diagram below:
The missing diode(s) on the 7 Drop Target Bank Reset coils (shown in the pink box) is allowing voltage back onto the Grey-Red wire causing the 2,10 Drop Target coil to activate when the 4 Drop Target Bank reset coil activates. That missing diode is required to isolate power from coils not being selected by the solenoid expander.

EBD_7DropTarget_IsolationDiode_path.jpg

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Oh dear, that coil connected backwards should have caused the playfield fuse to blow and potentially the Q8 driver transistor on the solenoid driver board when activating the 7 Drop Target Bank Reset coil. It was essentially acting as short circuit across the coil. The Black-White wires must connect to the non-banded (anode) side of the diode across the two coil lugs. You need to then somehow install the isolation diode between the Grey-Red wire and the coil lug with the banded (cathode) side of the diode. This diode prevents voltage going back through the windings and powering other coils in the circuit.
See the diagram below:
The missing diode(s) on the 7 Drop Target Bank Reset coils (shown in the pink box) is allowing voltage back onto the Grey-Red wire causing the 2,10 Drop Target coil to activate when the 4 Drop Target Bank reset coil activates. That missing diode is required to isolate power from coils not being selected by the solenoid expander.
[quoted image]

Gotcha. Much appreciated. Your diagram was very helpful! Ill report back when i fix it tomorrow.

#9 1 year ago

So i rewired it by making a 3rd "lug" on each of the coils by wrapping extra pieces of leads from the diodes. Working nicely!!!! Issue fixed. Thank you again!

10 months later
#10 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Oh dear, that coil connected backwards should have caused the playfield fuse to blow and potentially the Q8 driver transistor on the solenoid driver board when activating the 7 Drop Target Bank Reset coil. It was essentially acting as short circuit across the coil. The Black-White wires must connect to the non-banded (anode) side of the diode across the two coil lugs. You need to then somehow install the isolation diode between the Grey-Red wire and the coil lug with the banded (cathode) side of the diode. This diode prevents voltage going back through the windings and powering other coils in the circuit.
See the diagram below:
The missing diode(s) on the 7 Drop Target Bank Reset coils (shown in the pink box) is allowing voltage back onto the Grey-Red wire causing the 2,10 Drop Target coil to activate when the 4 Drop Target Bank reset coil activates. That missing diode is required to isolate power from coils not being selected by the solenoid expander.
[quoted image]

This post was super helpful Quench! Your the man. It saved me a ton of work with with diode problems. One last issue I have is with the “e” target. When selected it seems to complete all of Deluxe. All of the switches seem to register properly in test mode plus I replaced the diode connected to E target. Any idea why it would do this?
Thanks,
Del

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#11 4 months ago
Quoted from pindel:

Any idea why it would do this?

Knock down the 1 to 8 drop targets so D-E-L-U-X-E is lit.
I presume you're saying at this point if you hit the first E target, all the playfield D-E-L-U-X-E gets spotted?
Anyway if yes, then get the D-E-L-U-X-E targets lit and manually raise *every* drop target in the game including the inlines.
Navigate a screw driver behind the drop targets to activate the E target. Does all of D-E-L-U-X-E get spotted? If no, then start dropping individual drop targets until you determine which ones cause the problem to occur.

#12 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Knock down the 1 to 8 drop targets so D-E-L-U-X-E is lit.
I presume you're saying at this point if you hit the first E target, all the playfield D-E-L-U-X-E gets spotted?
Anyway if yes, then get the D-E-L-U-X-E targets lit and manually raise *every* drop target in the game including the inlines.
Navigate a screw driver behind the drop targets to activate the E target. Does all of D-E-L-U-X-E get spotted? If no, then start dropping individual drop targets until you determine which ones cause the problem to occur.

You explained it exactly right. It will select all of D-E-L-U-X-E only by pressing the first E with drop target 2-7 every time. You can also see the same results without target 3 or 4 intermittently. Sometimes it will do it 23567 or 24567. Another words, one or the other.

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#13 4 months ago
Quoted from pindel:

You explained it exactly right. It will select all of D-E-L-U-X-E only by pressing the first E with drop target 2-7 every time. You can also see the same results without target 3 or 4 intermittently. Sometimes it will do it 23567 or 24567. Another words, one or the other.

Hmm, the only logical thing I can come up with is if the diode on the #2 drop target is shorted either from being faulty, bent or its switch is incorrectly stacked. Test the diode with a multi-meter first and compare the readings against another diode elsewhere.
If this was the case I'd expect some other abnormal behavior when the 1-7 drop targets are down and you activate other switches on the same row such as the the upper right saucer or 3X inline drop target, etc.

#14 4 months ago

Once again, You Nailed it Quench! I’ve had this problem before. I did a continuity test to switch and it seemed fine which I don’t understand. Of course when I took it apart it was missing the inner tube sleeve. Put it together with sleeves and problem solved. It was the #2 switch incorrectly stacked just like you said. Big fat thank you, “the pinball Electronic problem solving King”!

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