(Topic ID: 66114)

Eight Ball Deluxe Owner Club & Restorations Guests Welcome As Well


By Hellfire

6 years ago



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#1651 1 year ago
Quoted from Bohdi:

Don't have that plastic, sorry

Thanks for checking! If anyone else has one let me know! Thanks

#1652 1 year ago

Update on the project EBD:

Got some more feature lamps working (wiring errors, as suspected)

Now we're having some weird issues with some GI. During test mode two of the GI lamps flash 'backwards'... in that they are on when everything else is off. Then they go very dim when everything else is ON. Seems like they must somehow be wired so they are getting power from the wrong place (maybe two places?) Has anyone come across this before and have an idea what the issue might be? These issues are both on the 8 GI lamps around the orbit that do flash during the lamp test.

GI across the top A B lanes is not working at all.
GI in the slings and above the outlanes is not working at all.
There seem to be 3 pins out on the bottom left connector of the AUX lamp switch... going to look up if those are for GI. Hoping that is the problem on those...

Two more general questions:

Does EBD have a lamp matrix? seems like it doesn't, and everything is just wired 1 to 1... I understand that in a matrix there is switching on both the positive and ground side of the lamp, but it seems like on EBD the grounds are all common (at least for a group of lights) so the switching must be done from the positive side... right?

And about the GI, am I understanding correctly that the GI is just not in the schematic at all? It seems like there is just that one circuit that says 'GI' but doesn't show you where anything goes to ground or gets power (because it doesn't really matter). But with some GI lamps flashing during test and some always on, it does matter a bit right? Any help on that? I feel like some of the GI backwards and always on problems I'm having are because the power routing isn't right...

#1653 1 year ago

Also, what do I need to re-pin the AUX LAMP connectors? Parts numbers on Marco aren't lining up again...

Edit:

Is this right for J2 on the AUX Lamp board? I think that is right, but its a insulation displacement one... and I understand those are bad, and its better to use the straight through ones with a crimp pin. Cant seem to find those on Marco... or is it just the pins that change it from IDC to crimp???
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/5792-10817-18

And are these the right pins and crimper and keys?
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/CT156T
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-CTW
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/CF156K

Thanks for any help, as always!

#1654 1 year ago

I have an EBD 81 that's not quite in my possession yet. I'm going to change the GI to LEDs. Does anyone know roughly how many bulbs I'll need for this project? Also, I assume they're all 44s, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.

#1655 1 year ago
Quoted from stevevt:

I have an EBD 81 that's not quite in my possession yet. I'm going to change the GI to LEDs. Does anyone know roughly how many bulbs I'll need for this project? Also, I assume they're all 44s, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks.

I just changed most bulb holders to bayonet style on the underside of playfield.. Original are 555s. (Break after 37 years of use!)Just guessing I would say close to 100 on the whole game!

#1656 1 year ago
Quoted from stashyboy:

I just changed most bulb holders to bayonet style on the underside of playfield.. Original are 555s. (Break after 37 years of use!)Just guessing I would say close to 100 on the whole game!

Is the 100 GI or inserts or both?

Thanks!

#1657 1 year ago

I think its closer to 50 for just GI...

Edit: JUST KIDDING. Don't forget the back box... rookie mistake ; )

#1658 1 year ago

Don't forget LEDs don't play nice with original Bally LDB and remember EBD has an Aux driver board for things like the deluxe back glass letters and special GI.

So be prepared for after market driver boards, or adding 470 ohm resistors to every socket or buying after market resistor load boards to stop flicker.

#1660 1 year ago

No lamp matrix on EBD. Just an extra Aux lamp driver board for all the excess lights ( like the upper side shots you mentioned).

Bally ultimately used 2 phase lighting where one drive SCR controlled two lamp sockets. So they shared the same lamp return but used opposite AC phases from the transformer. But that wasn't used until later (Baby PAC Man as I recall).

Your on and then dim lights are probably stuck on and go dim when ALL lamps are turned on.

Your dead GI string is probably burnt pins for the play field 6.3 VAC. Since the bulbs you describe may be some of the only GI running of 6VAC.

#1661 1 year ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Don't forget LEDs don't play nice with original Bally LDB and remember EBD has an Aux driver board for things like the deluxe back glass letters and special GI.
So be prepared for after market driver boards, or adding 470 ohm resistors to every socket or buying after market resistor load boards to stop flicker.

To run the leds in the inserts do you need just the main board from alltek or the aux too?

#1662 1 year ago

Well, the Aux board is just an extension of more computer controlled lights via SCRs. So I would assume they need special treatment just like the rest.

#1663 1 year ago

Ah, thanks Cactus... getting closer now... I found a few more spots on other schematics that refer to the GI. Trying to figure out which ones are always on and which ones flash in test mode...

But I'm checking J1 and J2 on the Rectifier board, for bad pins. Right?

Any help on why the always on ones are always on? They seem to be getting power from the right place... but I assume they aren't. Any other reason they could be stuck on?

#1664 1 year ago
Quoted from OwenKhan:

Any other reason they could be stuck on?

Shorted SCR.

Dead GI is pretty easy: identify the two solid wire colors that feed the dead string of GI lamps and check those wires at the rectifier/fuse PCB.

#1665 1 year ago

I’ve got a second hand one, but postage from Australia might make it not worthwhile orangegsx

92011B2F-0946-4F32-89BB-A4882C1BC987 (resized).jpeg

#1666 1 year ago
Quoted from TIB:

I’ve got a second hand one, but postage from Australia might it not worthwhile orangegsx

I had another member pm me about one in the US. Thanks though I appreciate it!

#1667 1 year ago

Great thread...

I am restoring a very tired EBD, all harnesses etc, I am thinking I want to replace the #555's with bayonet holders.

Is that generally the most reliable solution?

Ted

#1668 1 year ago
Quoted from Tember:

Great thread...
I am restoring a very tired EBD, all harnesses etc, I am thinking I want to replace the #555's with bayonet holders.
Is that generally the most reliable solution?
Ted

yes

#1669 1 year ago
Quoted from orangegsx:

To run the leds in the inserts do you need just the main board from alltek or the aux too?

Main and Aux, they make both.

#1670 1 year ago
Quoted from Tember:

Great thread...
I am restoring a very tired EBD, all harnesses etc, I am thinking I want to replace the #555's with bayonet holders.
Is that generally the most reliable solution?
Ted

I have changed the 555 to bayonet 44's on 2 EBD games. I did however, keep the 555 for the GI lamps just to keep the top side of the pf looking more original. The bayonets are more LED friendly than 555 socks. LED's are very difficult to insert into 555's

If you keep the 555's for the GI, you can clean them up and clean the contacts with a tiny emery board to 400 sand paper. Leave old bulbs in and spray paint white if removed form the pf.

#1671 1 year ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

Why? There's a reason Bally decided to ditch them.
The amber ones are a lot nicer-looking and became a major part of the iconic theme.

I like the amber as well, but I would like a white set just for nostalgia.

#1672 1 year ago

The coil is wired incorrectly. The black wires go on the lug the coincides with banded side of the diode and the brown/orange go to the center lug. EBD has more coils than the standard solenoid driver can acommodate. So bally came up with the solenoid expander board (SEB) which is mounted under the pf, near the pf fuse. It controls 7 coils in the game
1. Outhole kicker
2. one ball DT memory coil
3. two ball DT memory coil
4. saucer eject
5 inline DT reset coil
6. 7 bank DT reset coil (2 coils,same circuit)

All of these coils should have 3 lugs with 2 diodes. Any variation will result in weirdness. The diodes are wired in series. The center lug of the coil is a soldering point between the 2 diodes depending on where the coil is used in the game. The coil winding is connected to the outer coil lugs only. It seems confusing until you understand the theory. The expander has a relay that switches between the 3 of the coil circuits and the other 3 depending on game play. The extra diode prevents 2 coils from being energized at the same time. With game on and in attract mode, push the self test button on the coin door 1 time. This activates the controlled lamp test and SEB board. You should hear the SEB clicking in sync with the controlled lamps flashing. If it does not, then there's an issue. First thing to check is the header pins for the SEB for cold solder joints. Or bad relay. Located by the SEB is a lamp socket and bulb. Bulb should be flashing with controlled lamps in test mode.

#1673 1 year ago
Quoted from OwenKhan:

Hey guys,
Troubleshooting a EBD for a friend... The Solenoid for the out hole kicker wasn't ever wired up after a playfield restoration and I can't decipher the wiring diagram.
Could someone post some photos of their 1981 EBD out hole kickers wiring please? I check the photos in this thread and didn't see one... I know there are sposta be two diodes in there, so I'll pick those up, but wanted to be sure of the wiring before firing it up again,
Thanks!

Black wires go the lug with non-banded side of diode and the brown go to the center lug.

#1674 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

The coil is wired incorrectly. The black wires go on the lug the coincides with banded side of the diode and the brown/orange go to the center lug. EBD has more coils than the standard solenoid driver can acommodate. So bally came up with the solenoid expander board (SEB) which is mounted under the pf, near the pf fuse. It controls 7 coils in the game
1. Outhole kicker
2. one ball DT memory coil
3. two ball DT memory coil
4. saucer eject
5 inline DT reset coil
6. 7 bank DT reset coil (2 coils,same circuit)
All of these coils should have 3 lugs with 2 diodes. Any variation will result in weirdness. The diodes are wired in series. The center lug of the coil is a soldering point between the 2 diodes depending on where the coil is used in the game. The coil winding is connected to the outer coil lugs only. It seems confusing until you understand the theory. The expander has a relay that switches between the 3 of the coil circuits and the other 3 depending on game play. The extra diode prevents 2 coils from being energized at the same time. With game on and in attract mode, push the self test button on the coin door 1 time. This activates the controlled lamp test and SEB board. You should hear the SEB clicking in sync with the controlled lamps flashing. If it does not, then there's an issue. First thing to check is the header pins for the SEB for cold solder joints. Or bad relay. Located by the SEB is a lamp socket and bulb. Bulb should be flashing with controlled lamps in test mode.

Correction, the black wires go to the non-banded side.
This post was meant for owenKahn

#1675 1 year ago

It's been ages since I have read this thread. Has anyone had issues with the repro plastic sets? Mainly the clear flipper return lane and the upper right 8 ball inner clear. I have 3 sets and none are correct. What have you guys done to get around this?

#1676 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

the clear flipper return lane and the upper right 8 ball inner clear. I have 3 sets and none are correct. What have you guys done to get around this?

I used the OEM as a template and made my own.

#1677 1 year ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

I used the OEM as a template and made my own.

Years back, I think it was Marco or BAA, sold a 3 piece set that included the lane returns and the piece left of the 8 ball DT. I bought a few and luckily I have enough for a few more games. Classic Arcades sells them on epay but they are much thinner, but they are plastic protectors and not actual replacements. I searched for them on PPS and BAA and found that BAA had the lane returns sold separately and also the 3 piece set. I ordered what they had left which was 2 sets. I got them yesterday and to my disappointment they are the same as classic arcades.

I have never remade any plastics yet, but I think it will be inevitable at some point. How did you cut them? What material?

#1678 1 year ago

I have drawn a vector-file with plastic protectors for my EBD, including the clear lane guides. I got them lasercut.
If you want I can email you the file (simply drop me your email address via PM).

DPU_0522 (resized).jpgplastics (resized).jpg

#1679 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

I have never remade any plastics yet, but I think it will be inevitable at some point. How did you cut them? What material?

I use tin snips to ruff in the shape, then use a Dremel tool to finish along with sandpaper.

#1680 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

It's been ages since I have read this thread. Has anyone had issues with the repro plastic sets? Mainly the clear flipper return lane and the upper right 8 ball inner clear. I have 3 sets and none are correct. What have you guys done to get around this?

Where have you been? This topic has been discussed more times than I can count over the past decade or so.

Every reproduction plastic set as well as every NOS Bally plastic set since the beginning of time has the same error. That's why the reproductions are the way they are. Everyone just continues to copy the screwed-up NOS sheet artwork. No one really knows the story on the NOS artwork. It's just screwed-up. Holes are in the wrong location for the lower lane guides and there are pieces that don't even belong to EBD.

To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a correct set reproduced because an EBD expert has never made them. People just continue to copy the same errors over and over.

#1681 1 year ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

Where have you been? This topic has been discussed more times than I can count over the past decade or so.
Every reproduction plastic set as well as every NOS Bally plastic set since the beginning of time has the same error. That's why the reproductions are the way they are. Everyone just continues to copy the screwed-up NOS sheet artwork. No one really knows the story on the NOS artwork. It's just screwed-up. Holes are in the wrong location for the lower lane guides and there are pieces that don't even belong to EBD.
To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a correct set reproduced because an EBD expert has never made them. People just continue to copy the same errors over and over.

Yeah Jeff, I don't have the time to keep up with the groups as I would like. It's been months since I even posted on this thread. Also when i did my first EBD resto in 2010, I used cpr plastics and the inner right lane clear was correct. It was only the flipper returns that were wrong. I sourced the correct lane returns from another pinhead back then. Enough for a few games.
I think there was a guy that did them correctly, that was a guy named Alan. Forget the last name. But thanks for clearing this up. Now I know why they are screwed up.

#1682 1 year ago

I need new right and left slingshot switches, and I can't find the part number anywhere. Does anyone know the part number and where I can get them?

Also, I am a hard time re-using the metal posts for my new plastics. I assume no one makes replacement posts? If not, would grinding off the top that sticks in the plastic hole and then super gluing the post to the plastic work?

#1683 1 year ago
Quoted from BorisSWort:

I need new right and left slingshot switches, and I can't find the part number anywhere. Does anyone know the part number and where I can get them?
Also, I am a hard time re-using the metal posts for my new plastics. I assume no one makes replacement posts? If not, would grinding off the top that sticks in the plastic hole and then super gluing the post to the plastic work?

search up gatecrashers post on restoring ebd. He has pics of how to melt the posts into new plastics...can't find it now but he will probably chime in. He is the resident expert on EBD.
Do NOT grind those posts!

#1684 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

I think there was a guy that did them correctly, that was a guy named Alan. Forget the last name.

Could it be Alan Meyers? in LA of Pinball Express?
He did a lot of repo. stuff and the guys that had the licensing shut him down.

#1685 1 year ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Yeah Jeff, I don't have the time to keep up with the groups as I would like. It's been months since I even posted on this thread. Also when i did my first EBD resto in 2010, I used cpr plastics and the inner right lane clear was correct. It was only the flipper returns that were wrong. I sourced the correct lane returns from another pinhead back then. Enough for a few games.
I think there was a guy that did them correctly, that was a guy named Alan. Forget the last name. But thanks for clearing this up. Now I know why they are screwed up.

All the repop sets I have seen over the years have always been the same. The only parts that are actually non-functional are the lower clear lane guides because as you mentioned the holes are in the wrong location. The rest of the clear pieces are good except there are a couple extras that are not for EBD that are always included. No one knows how they got onto the NOS master but they are there and everyone since has always made everything the same including IPB and CPR and others before them. There have always been guys that have filled the void though and made separate clear pieces though. I used to make them out of Lexan in the 90s. I remember there was a guy selling them on eBay about 10 years ago that made them out of acrylic but they would crack during gameplay. Most now are made from PETG.

Quoted from BorisSWort:

I need new right and left slingshot switches, and I can't find the part number anywhere. Does anyone know the part number and where I can get them?
Also, I am a hard time re-using the metal posts for my new plastics. I assume no one makes replacement posts? If not, would grinding off the top that sticks in the plastic hole and then super gluing the post to the plastic work?

No one makes replacement posts but they are easy to remove from the original plastics and re-use.

IMG_7320 (resized).JPG

IMG_7313 (resized).JPG

IMG_7321 (resized).JPG

IMG_7326 (resized).JPG

IMG_7327 (resized).JPG

IMG_7330 (resized).JPG

Afterwards you can re-flare the ends or just leave them as-is. When you re-install the new plastics and tighten down the screws they are tight.

Notice how shiney these got. That was after they came out of the vibratory polisher. They polish up nicely on a buffing wheel too. They are plated though so if they are too rusted and pitted they will never be pristine again but they can be made more presentable.

#1686 1 year ago
Quoted from BorisSWort:

I need new right and left slingshot switches, and I can't find the part number anywhere. Does anyone know the part number and where I can get them?
Also, I am a hard time re-using the metal posts for my new plastics. I assume no one makes replacement posts? If not, would grinding off the top that sticks in the plastic hole and then super gluing the post to the plastic work?

I have never found exact replacements for Bally slings. I keep the old switches and just change the blades. I use these:

http://bayareaamusements.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BS-SW-1A-120

I'm not sure if Bay Area ships international but you can ask them. Marco Spec also has this switch but is a little more expensive but they probably will ship to you.

So take these apart and toss everything except the blades. The holes are slightly smaller that the original blades so you will have to enlarge them with a round file or a diamond bit in the Dremel. It doesn't take much effort to make them fit and the blade length is perfect. I have done this several times in all my early solid state restos.

#1687 1 year ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Could it be Alan Meyers? in LA of Pinball Express?
He did a lot of repo. stuff and the guys that had the licensing shut him down.

Yes it was him.

#1688 1 year ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

All the repop sets I have seen over the years have always been the same. The only parts that are actually non-functional are the lower clear lane guides because as you mentioned the holes are in the wrong location. The rest of the clear pieces are good except there are a couple extras that are not for EBD that are always included. No one knows how they got onto the NOS master but they are there and everyone since has always made everything the same including IPB and CPR and others before them. There have always been guys that have filled the void though and made separate clear pieces though. I used to make them out of Lexan in the 90s. I remember there was a guy selling them on eBay about 10 years ago that made them out of acrylic but they would crack during gameplay. Most now are made from PETG.

I got a few pairs of the lane returns from Mike P about 8 years ago. I remember one of them cracked while I was installing them so I'm guessing his are acrylic. I tried your technique for replacing the plastics stand-offs this time around. I like it more than how I used to do it, which was to melt them in with the tip of a 30 watt iron. The melting technique is ok for the lower plastics since they are covered by the second layer of plastics. Doing it that way pushes too much melted plastic upward which needs to ground off and that's too risky for damaging the plastics. The only issue I had was that some of my stand offs were over tightened as some point which causes the collar of the stand to sink too low for the crimper to grab. Luckily for now I have a bunch to pick through from my parts hoard.

#1689 1 year ago

I was able to get the metal posts out of the old plastics (at least until my lighter ran out of gas). However, I can not seem to take the flare out without messing up the tops - I keep making them square. Can I just drill a bigger hole in the plastics? Why can't someone like g94 just make some metal posts? That has to be easier than making plastics.

#1690 1 year ago
Quoted from BorisSWort:

I was able to get the metal posts out of the old plastics (at least until my lighter ran out of gas). However, I can not seem to take the flare out without messing up the tops - I keep making them square. Can I just drill a bigger hole in the plastics? Why can't someone like g94 just make some metal posts? That has to be easier than making plastics.

I wouldn't drill the plastics. You might end up cracking them and hate yourself later. Take a deep breath. Be patient. Are you using the crimper that gatecrasher shows in pic? It's very cheap at most auto parts stores. They usually come in a kit with fuses and crimp connectors. I start out with the middle size until I get the metal to take shape and then go to the small size. Like any metal, you need to work it slowly, keep turning the stand as you crimp. Eventually you will get the hang of it. Also keep the stand flush to the bottom of the crimper while doing so. Your hands may get tired and sore,so just do a few at a time.

It would be very costly to reproduce these and there wouldn't be enough demand to warrant the expense. I believe these are actually 2 pieces, one being the bell shaped stand the the other being some sort of eyelet like you would see on a sneaker where the laces go through. There must have been special tooling made just for this purpose. The amount pressure needed to flare the top would make the stands cave in at the top if they were just pressed downward, so I believe they where crimped somehow.

#1691 1 year ago
Quoted from BorisSWort:

Why can't someone like g94 just make some metal posts? That has to be easier than making plastics.

Quoted from Lovef2k:

I believe these are actually 2 pieces, one being the bell shaped stand the the other being some sort of eyelet like you would see on a sneaker where the laces go through. There must have been special tooling made just for this purpose. The amount pressure needed to flare the top would make the stands cave in at the top if they were just pressed downward, so I believe they where crimped somehow.

I reckon that it was one piece: the original shape of these posts was more or less like the after-version from Gatecrasher's photo. Things were assembled using sort of a press and dies (similar to a rivet press, using rivet setting dies).

#1692 1 year ago

The crimp tool is custom made. One side fits inside the bell housing that has a hole in it.
the other is a "male" that fits down the hole with a beveled brim that flairs the top of the metal
bell shape onto the plastic. It is the same principal tool that is used to make the bayonet lamp sockets.

#1693 1 year ago

Thanks for all of the help, but I think I am going to have to find someone who is better at this than me to do this. I tried using several different crimpers, but none of them have a round shape, and using the crimper like in the photo only made a mess of things. Once I get the plastics on I can finally use the machine again after 8 years of refurbishment, including a new playfield. I don't think I would make a very good living if I was a pinball repair person, but I try.

#1694 1 year ago

I had trouble when I redid my clear plastic as well. My solution was to take needle nose pliers and carefully reform the Bell into a more cylindrical shape on the top. That way it could fit through the Plastics. Even so, I did have to enlarge the holes on the Plastics. As long as you are careful they will not break. Good luck.

#1695 1 year ago

Leave the crimped part alone. Set the "bell" upright on a safe surface. Stick a hot soldering iron down the hole for about ten seconds. Grab the plastic by the sides near the hole and push it down over the bell. With a little pressure it will pop on. Let it cool. Move on with life.

Shawn

#1696 1 year ago
Quoted from Mk1Mod0:

Leave the crimped part alone. Set the "bell" upright on a safe surface. Stick a hot soldering iron down the hole for about ten seconds. Grab the plastic by the sides near the hole and push it down over the bell. With a little pressure it will pop on. Let it cool. Move on with life.
Shawn

Smart idea: heat might be the key. I'll try that next time.

I'm already heating the old plastic until it becomes soft and bendable when removing the posts. The old plastic is garbage afterwards, but the posts keep their original shape.

#1697 1 year ago

ebay.com link

I like the white bumper caps better than the amber. Would love to find a set.

#1698 1 year ago

The trick also works

Quoted from g94:Smart idea: heat might be the key. I'll try that next time.
I'm already heating the old plastic until it becomes soft and bendable when removing the posts. The old plastic is garbage afterwards, but the posts keep their original shape.

The trick also works for removal. Soldering iron in the hole til plastic gets soft. Grab with soft pliers. Pull out. Not my tricks but they have worked for me for years.

#1699 1 year ago

Ok, got a few issues:

My drop target bank seems like its set way too high... when the drops are down they still stick up almost 1/4 inch above the playfield. So there are airballs a-plenty and many lighter shots never even make it to the stand up targets behind. There doesn't seem to be a setting to adjust the height of the drops so do I just remove the whole assembly and add a spacer to make the drops level with the field when down? They aren't meant to be that high are they?

The other issue may be a bit trickier. The Deluxe stand up targets don't play their sound when hit (I assume they are meant to, seems like they do in gameplay vids). They do cause all the other sounds to stop for a second though. This problem is only present when the stand ups are NOT lit... once they are lit they play a sound as normal. All targets score as they should, so I'm guessing its just a problem with that one sound not triggering (or getting to the speaker) on the soundboard. Any one seen this problem? Where do I start? Gonna go stare at the schematics for a while and see what I come up with, any help is greatly appreciated.

#1700 1 year ago
Quoted from Mk1Mod0:

The trick also works

The trick also works for removal. Soldering iron in the hole til plastic gets soft. Grab with soft pliers. Pull out. Not my tricks but they have worked for me for years.

A Bic lighter is a lot easier. A couple waves under the flame and it comes right off. No electricity or contact required.

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